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2 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

I understand that people think that grenades are a problem. Maybe some simple number tweaks in wvw/pvp could be the way or even the thing @coro.3176said above. Tho I would like to see a condi trait instead xD Because explosions is the way to go as 2nd condi engi spec and it still has just 1 condi trait.

However, as I said, I understand that people say that grenades are a problem. But can you please tell facts and not tell them (even) more op as they are? The statement that "there isn't any drawback now" because "retaliation was removed", is simply untrue.
Of course there are drawbacks. Grenades count as projectiles so you can reflect them. They also are slow (if grenadier isnt traited) but that problem was said by "coro.3176" already. There are drawbacks, stop ignoring them please, actually speak facts and dont say there wouldnt be any drawbacks.

I dont disagree that there is a problem with nades in pvp/wvw (mostly on scrapper) but please dont....lie?


Btw what exactly is the problem with Prime light beam? It does like 7 dmg on crit bc its a cc. You would only use it bc of pulsing dmg. At this point u have ur movement keys "wasd" as counter. Tip the the day: Use your movement keys to go out of pulsing damage fields. Seriously, it has 1 pulse each second, I think you have enough time to look on the ground and move out of the field.

So because I was talking about the old retaliation as the former main counter and biggest drawback to grenades, you want to now discuss every single other drawback to grenades and say I'm lying?  I was talking about skill balance, not an enumeration of all the drawbacks of a single skill.

None of those drawbacks you listed have anything to do with a change made in another part of the game that suddenly makes a core engineer skill or trait overpowered in relation to others.  Am I lying when I say that this is not the first instance of a core engineer trait or skill that became overpowered due to some other change?  I've been through many balance changes on engineer since launch to know that I'm not lying at all.  I'm sure you can manage to even find my old posts in the old forum archive regarding retaliation and engineer skills, specifically flamethrower and grenade barrage.  Removal of retaliation is a wet dream!  When Anet made that change I wondered how these skills would be dealt with.  I am not surprised at all with the complaints now.

Doesn't matter how slow grenades are if you are right on top of the other player.  It was always great too watching your slow projectiles and knowing you're about to down to retal because the other player had time to put it up and you can't dodge out of the damage.

The question is, where have you been all this time to not know how many times something on engineer that was perfectly fine for years suddenly becomes a balance problem due to changes elsewhere?

P.S. What left field are you in to take my mention about Prime Light Beam to mean someone who was hit with it rather than the engineer player who landed a nice beam on a juicy zerg and almost died to the retaliation?  Does that happen *now* after retaliation got removed?  No?  OF COURSE NOT!  Now you survive with mostly full health that your opponent who is low health has to burn through, very little risk to yourself.

Edited by Chaba.5410
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Everybody is thinking it, I'm just saying it - when are we going to do something about this ^-^

I'm in support of nerfing Grenade Barrage, but only a very little bit. Like a shave. Then remove Explosive Entrance entirely and put something less stupid in it's place. Since Scrapper has been repe

I am still confused why eng kits have no cd on there swap it seems like there a real place where anet can balance eng kits effects by just adding in a risk of jumping out of there kits like every thin

27 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Don't use the word nerf. What it needs is a merge of PVP balance. Stop calling it a nerf when it clearly was overlooked in the Feb 2020 balance and followup patches.

I don't know if the issue is PvE/PvP split.  Retaliation was removed entirely so any skills that it formerly countered would need to be looked at.

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Just now, Chaba.5410 said:

I don't know if the issue is PvE/PvP split.  Retaliation was removed entirely so any skills that it formerly countered would need to be looked at.

It is 100% the lack of a split. PVP was split from PVE but WVW is using the PVE-based split.

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17 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

So because I was talking about the old retaliation as the former main counter and biggest drawback to grenades, you want to now discuss every single other drawback to grenades and say I'm lying?

??? You said yourself that Grenade kit has NO other drawback without retaliation.
"There was a counter.  It was called Retaliation, which got removed.  That's why there isn't any drawback now." Thats exactly what you said.
So first you said there isnt any drawback because retaliation got removed and now you said "every single other drawback to grenades".
So my point stays. Saying that grenades have no drawback without retaliation is a lie.

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11 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

??? You said yourself that Grenade kit has NO other drawback without retaliation.
"There was a counter.  It was called Retaliation, which got removed.  That's why there isn't any drawback now." Thats exactly what you said.
So first you said there isnt any drawback because retaliation got removed and now you said "every single other drawback to grenades".
So my point stays. Saying that grenades have no drawback without retaliation is a lie.

Your point is inconsequential.  Surely you're not saying that those other drawbacks are what made grenade barrage stronger, are you?  Those drawbacks have been there for years too.  So you can throw your grenades faster with a trait... And yet it was the removal of retaliation that made the skill stronger in relation to balance that is now making people complain about it.  I haven't seen anyone complaining about faster grenades!  Would be nice if you could not lose the plot on skill balance with inconsequential tangents.

Edited by Chaba.5410
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6 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Your point is inconsequential.  Surely you're not saying that those other drawbacks are what made grenade barrage stronger, are you?  Those drawbacks have been there for years too.  So you can throw your grenades faster with a trait... And yet it was the removal of retaliation that made the skill stronger in relation to balance that is now making people complain about it.  I haven't seen anyone complaining about faster grenades!  Would be nice if you could not lose the plot on skill balance with inconsequential tangents.

I am not saying that grenades are fine. They are surely too strong in wvw for example.
I am just not fine with ur statement that u said that it has no drawbacks without retaliation xD

However to come back to your main point:

Tho I dont think people complain about it because of retaliation. I think its because of the very high auto attack damage of nades and because u can throw them behind u and pairing this with superspeed makes literally every melee build a free kill.

I fully agree that retaliation remove made it stronger. I just didnt agree that you said that there are no other drawbacks without retaliation.

I dont wanna say that grenades are fine or something like that. They are not fine in WvW, surely too strong.
Tho the grenade complains were already there before the remove of retaliation.

However I also think that with the nerf of grenades there have to be things that need a buff. Grenades are such a big part of wvw engi builds that most of the damage comes from it. If this damage gets nerfed there have to be other stuff to make engi still viable.
Its simple balance to split the strength over multiple skills and not all on 1 skill/kit.

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15 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

I am not saying that grenades are fine. They are surely too strong in wvw for example.
I am just not fine with ur statement that u said that it has no drawbacks without retaliation xD

However to come back to your main point:

Tho I dont think people complain about it because of retaliation. I think its because of the very high auto attack damage of nades and because u can throw them behind u and pairing this with superspeed makes literally every melee build a free kill.

I fully agree that retaliation remove made it stronger. I just didnt agree that you said that there are no other drawbacks without retaliation.

I dont wanna say that grenades are fine or something like that. They are not fine in WvW, surely too strong.
Tho the grenade complains were already there before the remove of retaliation.

However I also think that with the nerf of grenades there have to be things that need a buff. Grenades are such a big part of wvw engi builds that most of the damage comes from it. If this damage gets nerfed there have to be other stuff to make engi still viable.
Its simple balance to split the strength over multiple skills and not all on 1 skill/kit.

No they aren't. Grenades are not part of any largescale WVW build.

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1 minute ago, SeTect.5918 said:

I am not saying that grenades are fine. They are surely too strong in wvw for example.
I am just not fine with ur statement that u said that it has no drawbacks without retaliation xD

However to come back to your main point:

Tho I dont think people complain about it because of retaliation. I think its because of the very high auto attack damage of nades and because u can throw them behind u and pairing this with superspeed makes literally every melee build a free kill.

I fully agree that retaliation remove made it stronger. I just didnt agree that you said that there are no other drawbacks without retaliation.

That's fair to not be fine with the way I wrote it.  All the drawbacks of the skill are just not what I was talking about though so it bothered me to feel like you were twisting my point about the removal of the main counter to that skill.

Retaliation was an OP counter and in the past people discussed having some sort of ICD on it.  Now that it is removed completely, what are viable counters to grenade barrage?  The current damage players are doing is right back up there with the old 100nades build pre-2013 (back when Grenadier reset the barrage cooldown when using grenade kit).  It's not the skill itself so much as it is, like with the old 100nades build, a synergy with a trait.  This new build wouldn't really have been viable with the old retaliation.

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8 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

No they aren't. Grenades are not part of any largescale WVW build.

It's the small scale WvW stuff though where you find it.  Also seeing a lot of flamethrowers out there.

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1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Don't use the word nerf. What it needs is a merge of PVP balance. Stop calling it a nerf when it clearly was overlooked in the Feb 2020 balance and followup patches.

There's other things that also haven't been split at all which are dominant in WVW right now such as DH traps, vengeful hammers, all barriers nerfed in PVP but not WVW (scourge and scrapper alike), boon scalin on med kit auto, faithful strike healing (mace auto on guardian), quickness uptime on Kinetic Accelerators, or shortbow skills on renegade. There's also the infamous necro Lich form. Let's not pretend it's just grenades which have near zero relevance in group scale WvW.

Why would anyone want less damage in WvW though. Boonballs are next to immortal anyway unless you have your own boonball to fight it with. 

You're not wrong about things gliding under the radar post-Feb patch, but I seriously think those things are necessary for the health of WvW unless support gets a double nerf across the board. 

Personally I think the only thing that needs a nerf is DH because it works at all scales and does absurdly high damage in zergs. But even that I'd let pass if it means effectively killing boonballs.

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The removal of oppressive retaliation made Grenades and FT merely playable, but not good. What made them strong was:

  • Their skills getting passed over in the great competitive balance nerf (both FT and nades), so they got a relative buff
  • Impact Savant changes. This is huge for FT and grenades. Both kits are high offensive, FT especially, as it has a long attack animation. This trait now lets the engineer convert that high offense into defense with barrier and keep attacking rather than have to constantly swap kits. It's a self-reinforcing cycle. More barrier = safer to do more damage = even more barrier ..
  • Quickness buffs to scrapper - this is the biggest one. It lets players get a burst combo off that much faster
  • Explosives traitline buffs. Explosives is insane now, which lets players run it and pick up Grenadier. Grenadier makes nades playable. Try landing grenade shots without it. They're SOOOO SLOW. That's why I think it'd be better if the damage stays but grenades are slowed down a bit.

Also, I'd argue grenades are still not "good" in most fights, since they're still projectiles and can't be used into the perma-reflect that a zerg is likely to have most of the time.

Edited by coro.3176
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42 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Why would anyone want less damage in WvW though. Boonballs are next to immortal anyway unless you have your own boonball to fight it with. 

You're not wrong about things gliding under the radar post-Feb patch, but I seriously think those things are necessary for the health of WvW unless support gets a double nerf across the board. 

Personally I think the only thing that needs a nerf is DH because it works at all scales and does absurdly high damage in zergs. But even that I'd let pass if it means effectively killing boonballs.

Grenades are irrelevant against boon balls anyways.

I think the main problem with boon balls is rather downstate (instant res skills especially, which were unevenly nerfed) and access to lots of group superspeed which makes it impossible to kite them without bringing a ton of your own mobility and thus sacrificing damage.

We talk about stuff that was forgotten by the 2020 nerfs, and downstate is definitely one of them.  It doesn't matter how much damage you can do if they can just pick them back up.

Also recently I've been seeing groups spamming "Rise!" to take advantage of the target cap to absorb damage.

So I would admit that at least me personally that grenades aren't a problem except when used from stealth, but that's rather an issue of little counterplay with scrapper having the only significant stealth.

(And also why it's seen much in wvw along with the gyro) But even considering stealth grenades, they're probably not even a top 5 threat to me. Then again I probably think fighting engis at point blank range is just a bad idea. (But not as bad as trying to faceplant into necros, especially reaper. Though people insist on that anyways and then whine about that too.)

Of course I don't really know the context of how people are taking massive damage when they're visible. It's possible they get +1'd but almost anyone can do massive bursts when they can freecast.

Edited by ArchonWing.9480
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9 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Of course I don't really know the context of how people are taking massive damage when they're visible. It's possible they get +1'd but almost anyone can do massive bursts when they can freecast.

With Grenadier, they're too fast for human reactions once they've been thrown.

I mean, I haven't tested extensively, but that's what it feels like to me using traited nades. I'm never worried about my opponent dodging. I pick a spot and just know they're going to hit.

Meanwhile, when using untraited nades, I'm always expecting my opponent to dodge. They're so slow I'm actually *counting* on my opponent dodging and am already setting up my next attack assuming that they did dodge.

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18 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Grenades are irrelevant against boon balls anyways.

I think the main problem with boon balls is rather downstate (instant res skills especially, which were unevenly nerfed) and access to lots of group superspeed which makes it impossible to kite them without bringing a ton of your own mobility and thus sacrificing damage.

We talk about stuff that was forgotten by the 2020 nerfs, and downstate is definitely one of them.  It doesn't matter how much damage you can do if they can just pick them back up.

Also recently I've been seeing groups spamming "Rise!" to take advantage of the target cap to absorb damage.

So I would admit that at least me personally that grenades aren't a problem except when used from stealth, but that's rather an issue of little counterplay with scrapper having the only significant stealth.

(And also why it's seen much in wvw along with the gyro) But even considering stealth grenades, they're probably not even a top 5 threat to me. Then again I probably think fighting engis at point blank range is just a bad idea. (But not as bad as reapers)

Of course I don't really know the context of how people are taking massive damage when they're visible. It's possible they get +1'd but almost anyone can do massive bursts when they can freecast.

IMO, anything that has enough versatility to be good at all scales of WvW (good, not just viable. Roaming, small scale, zerging) deserves to be considered for nerfs. That doesn't mean the entire class however - I'm of course talking skills, traits, stats, etc.

Niche is fine. If something is strong in a specific scenario, that doesn't mean it should be exempt from balance, but I do think it should mean low priority. Let those things do their thing because they don't get to anywhere else.

Grenades are a niche. They're viable in pug v pug because anti-projectile uptime isn't as high. In organized fights, or pugs against guilds, there's just so little time you can actually do damage that you're better off not using the kit. I know, I use it daily.
Grenades are very good with all Engi specs, core included, but Scrapper and Holo offer the utility and survivability to make the kit good outside of zergs. Core has to sacrifice a lot of things to get the same results and is only dangerous if the player is extremely skilled, but core can still be stronger than people give it credit for so I don't want to sell it short.

But I digress, back to the point of boon balls, I think Super Speed is a huge issue. It should not be sharable except from high cost abilities, and less things should have access to it. Scrapper's access should entirely be selfish - it's necessary for the spec due to being melee that it has the option to stick to people, it doesn't need to be able to share it with classes that don't need that (snowballs in large scale). Tempest sharing it with like 1 or 2 things is okay, IMO.
Downed state, I agree, but I also think it's largely because damage is so low, support is so high, and Mount Stomp was removed. Either those things should be changed, or the easier solution, reduce downed state health. 

 

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...and imagine playing ele who never had retal to begin with (and projectile blocks don't matter because literally just wait until it's over and then spam grenades...no one is going to stay in the same attunement forever or keep all their utilities off CD until they see nades, that's just unrealistic)

Ele suffers but nades are fine also while we're at it buff flamethrower autoattack, doesn't do enough damage

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Core engineer has never been a problem. The problem is that the scrapper and holosmith elite specifications are overpowered. Nerfing core traits and coefficients will hurt core as well. Engineers have never been a very common profession here in EU. You see much more guardians, necromancers, thieves, rangers etc.

I have a better suggestion: All kits should do 10 % or 15 % less damage when elite specification is selected. Thus there would be a trade off. Core be left as it is as it also needs some reliable source of damage (pistol/pistol is not viable, nor it rifle).


 

Edited by Deniara Devious.3948
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4 hours ago, Deniara Devious.3948 said:

I have a better suggestion: All kits should do 10 % or 15 % less damage when elite specification is selected. Thus there would be a trade off. Core be left as it is as it also needs some reliable source of damage (pistol/pistol is not viable, nor it rifle).

This doesn't make sense to me because it's the changes to the core engi Explosives traitline that is buffing grenade barrage.  Unless you're saying that people should still be able to one shot with grenade barrage and Impact Savant is the trade-off?

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7 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

This doesn't make sense to me because it's the changes to the core engi Explosives traitline that is buffing grenade barrage.  Unless you're saying that people should still be able to one shot with grenade barrage and Impact Savant is the trade-off?

Indirectly. The buffs to Explosives make the traitline playable, and the traitline being playable means engis can take Grenadier(an old, unchanged trait), which means they can actually hit grenade barrage, so they can actually run it.

I'd be happy with barrage one-shotting if it was slow.

FYI, here's a clip of old retaliation + non-zerker stats with grenades.

You'll notice: 

  • The damage sucks - like .. a lot
  • Retaliation is really oppressive

I don't want to go back to that.

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To balance out this, let the grenades keep the same damage according to available stats and boon bonuses and engi trait options, but just have the grenades delay its explosion after one second. Because it is a grenade. Grenades should be delayed a bit before explosion.

Edit:: Or instead of 1 second maybe half/second. You know how some aoe circle effects have a visual before the effect is in place, giving players time to dodge it. But imagine engi grenades while you are stunned or immobilized.

Edited by Avion Blade.4869
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And for those saying:" grenades didn't get nerfed like other things with the balance patch"....it's the main reason against nerf culture. I noticed a trend where the same 'ol professions always get "forgotten" every time a major patch hit....they never forget to nerf ele, war or ranger......but they have "short memory" when it comes to revs, engis and necros....always flying under the radar, always compensated for even the smallest change...with weapon skill/utilities updated on a whim...

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