GW2 PvP scene is dead because EVERY class can Tank/Heal/CC/DPS, it's ZERO skill gameplay.

[Gobcrack.9320]

Despite what people's opinions are about WoW PvP, the raw statistical data shows that WoW PvP is the most watched MMO PvP in the entire genre. 

 

It has Blizzard + 3rd party tournament support, pro player scene and a thriving content creator community which is why people often regard it as the best MMO in general and why it's been #1 for over a decade.

 

GW2 on the other hand went the opposite direction of WoW in terms of gameplay and decided to make it so that EVERY SINGLE CLASS class can Heal, Tank, CC AND DPS and now we have gameplay that feels incredibly spammy and everyone is now bunker classes with DPS which slows down gameplay A LOT and makes it super boring to watch/play.

 

Like just take a look at Necro for example, this class can be played at Core level and it can not only DPS and burst someone down incredibly fast but it has multiple HP bars via Shroud/Lich and on top of that it even has innate Healing, it can also CC incredibly well with fears.

 

This is a CORE class that not only BURST, it can BUNKER, it can also HEAL AND it can CC.

 

People in this community can't find anything wrong with this because guess what, Guardian can do this too. Most classes can do what they can do, so the meta becomes less about creativity and skill based gameplay and more so finding out which class can do the 5 different things faster and easier because at that point you'd be at a disadvantage NOT running it. 

 

People also love saying "You can play off meta", and that's fine because they're right but it has nothing to do with my point.

 

You can play off meta, you can play on meta, it doesn't matter. The gameplay itself is ruined by the fact that every class can do everything, it's lazy gameplay and it takes away role identity which further puts off a majority of gamers evident by the lack of people's interest in any GW2 PvP content.

 

[alcopaul.2156]

GUILD WARS 2 SPVP HEALSPAM META 2022++

Edited January 23, 2022 by alcopaul.2156
LELZ

[Tescao.3042]

You need to get to know macro game Warcraft more deeply.  One of the nails driven into the coffin lid in Warcraft, can be called rerolling between classes.

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by DomHemingway.8436

[Gobcrack.9320]

28 minutes ago, DomHemingway.8436 said:

One of the nails driven into the coffin lid in Warcraft, can be called rerolling between classes.

 

A lot of GW2 players bring this up, and it's true.

 

You can easily swap classes in GW2 compared to WoW, and it lets you try out everything in PvP thus making it one of the easiest and most level playing fields out of most MMOs.

 

Despite it being this easy to get into, why is it so dead?

 

WoW admittedly fails in this regard because it's a long grind and chore to relevel toons/gear them up, and i'm not defending those grind systems but at the same time each role in that game means something.

 

You can't play a Rogue and want to tank without losing DPS, you can't play a mage and want to have healing without losing DPS.

There's trade offs, every class just can't do every single thing otherwise what's the point?

 

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Gobcrack.9320

[Tescao.3042]

34 minutes ago, Gobcrack.9320 said:

 

A lot of GW2 players bring this up, and it's true.

 

You can easily swap classes, and try out everything in PvP thus making it one of the easiest and most level playing fields out of most MMOs.

 

Despite it being this easy to get into, why is it dead?

 

WoW admittedly fails in this regard because it's a long grind and chore to relevel toons/gear them up, and i'm not defending those grind systems but at the same time each role in that game means something.

 

You can't play a Rogue and want to tank without losing DPS, you can't play a mage and want to have healing without losing DPS.

There's trade offs, every class just can't do every single thing otherwise what's the point?

 

 

 

Yes, we themselves drove this nail. What I'm telling you is that people don't understand the counter game between classes in Warcraft, which hasn't changed in years, only a few have played with the same class since opening. 
That's why the hi end PvP raid (RBG) in Warcraft was killed, because there is no understanding that you need to play 2 tanks wisely. There is no meta in RBG, there is only a counter game between classes (specs). The second tank is the gunner.

Edit:

Few people understand that even pure damage specs are divided in pvp like this (Lock Demon - more tanky, Afli - more healing, Destro - more damage). If my memory serves me right about Rouge (sub - more tanky evasion, Combat - more healing, Assa - more damage). Then there are secondary factors - burst, tunnel, a dot raid killer, solo target killer and etc. This list goes on.

Edited January 23, 2022 by DomHemingway.8436

[Markri.9475]

Not sure I understand your meaning of "SKILL".

If everyone has every tool available; then is not the only thing that differ between players their Skill?

[Widmo.3186]

Im tried of repeating myself about whats wrong with gw2 pvp, so Ill just shorten it to some things why watching gw2 is way less popular than WoW:

1 - type of combat gw2 presents. Its just a clownfiest of smashing skills, sitting on top of each other, and using flashy animations. Sometimes even players cant say whats going on, now imagine what it must be to just sit and watch it, and now imagine what it must be to sit, watch it and have no idea about the game as outsider. Some people might enjoy playing gw2 combat, but watching it is one of the most painful things on eg. twitch (check old ESL stream comments if you dont believe me)

2 - conquest mode. Jesus kittening christ, why, why why why. Like yeah, we get it, was fun first year, maybe second. But believe me, not only playing but also watching people que arenas is uncomparable to conquest. You have action, in terms of WoW you have clear combat (CC/channel/cast/kiting etc) as long as guy playing has good UI, you have clear winning mechanic. Everything works. Meanwhile in terms of conquest, no matter what meta it is (usually the same btw), its boring, repetetive, and unfun. And tbh I cant see it other way, standing on colorful circles straight up promotes bunker gameplay. And in 99% cases bunker gameplay is not fun to watch.

Obviously there are way more reasons, but just those 2 remove potential over 3/4 of the viewers. 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Widmo.3186

[Tescao.3042]

I have nothing against your topic. You just didn't quite ask the question in this thread. It would be better if it looked like this. Why in WoW the strategic counter play between classes and specs is so much more multifaceted! 

Rerolling is generally a separate issue here, I don’t even want to draw a conclusion. Because rerolling is one of the reasons knocked down Warcraft...

Edited January 23, 2022 by DomHemingway.8436

[Morwath.9817]

Main issue is conquest being main game mode, as by design it forces everyone to be same kind of monkey as possible with few exceptions.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

core necro can't heal tho, and its cc's suck. guard can't dps and heal when symbolbrand died. i do kinda generally agree with the sentiment but you need better examples.

 

[Hotride.2187]

You should see wvw with cele stats.

[Shao.7236]

2 hours ago, Widmo.3186 said:

Im tried of repeating myself about whats wrong with gw2 pvp, so Ill just shorten it to some things why watching gw2 is way less popular than WoW:

1 - type of combat gw2 presents. Its just a clownfiest of smashing skills, sitting on top of each other, and using flashy animations. Sometimes even players cant say whats going on, now imagine what it must be to just sit and watch it, and now imagine what it must be to sit, watch it and have no idea about the game as outsider. Some people might enjoy playing gw2 combat, but watching it is one of the most painful things on eg. twitch (check old ESL stream comments if you dont believe me)

2 - conquest mode. Jesus kittening christ, why, why why why. Like yeah, we get it, was fun first year, maybe second. But believe me, not only playing but also watching people que arenas is uncomparable to conquest. You have action, in terms of WoW you have clear combat (CC/channel/cast/kiting etc) as long as guy playing has good UI, you have clear winning mechanic. Everything works. Meanwhile in terms of conquest, no matter what meta it is (usually the same btw), its boring, repetetive, and unfun. And tbh I cant see it other way, standing on colorful circles straight up promotes bunker gameplay. And in 99% cases bunker gameplay is not fun to watch.

Obviously there are way more reasons, but just those 2 remove potential over 3/4 of the viewers. 

1: You're exaggerating, it's definitely possible to tell what's going on. The game isn't THAT complex, it'd definitely be possible to do commenting gameplay if you ask anyone who has played enough to tell what's up. I don't play Ranger, Mesmer or Necromancer yet I can tell what's going based off just face value after facing them for a while and actually BOTHERING to learn the game rather than being oblivious to the content like it shouldn't exist.

 

2: Without conquest you render half the game content useless, see 2v2/3v3/TDM for best examples. Having an objective to defend is the best way to make use of all type of content.

 

This thread hyperboles a lot of things that we see pretty much in any game, even FPS games for that matter.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Gobcrack.9320]

19 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

1: You're exaggerating, it's definitely possible to tell what's going on. The game isn't THAT complex, it'd definitely be possible to do commenting gameplay if you ask anyone who has played enough to tell what's up. I don't play Ranger, Mesmer or Necromancer yet I can tell what's going based off just face value after facing them for a while and actually BOTHERING to learn the game rather than being oblivious to the content like it shouldn't exist.

 

I have never in my life seen anyone get excited for a GW2 tournament, event or PvP stream.

 

I can't even name you two or three relevant players despite this game being over half a decade old.

 

This game does NOT look good to your average viewer, it's not even that it's complex but it's that it just looks visually unappealing to people unless they play GW2 in the first place and even most GW2 players don't watch PvP content because it's boring and not interesting at all. 

 

 

 

Edited January 23, 2022 by Gobcrack.9320

[Widmo.3186]

27 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

1: You're exaggerating, it's definitely possible to tell what's going on. The game isn't THAT complex, it'd definitely be possible to do commenting gameplay if you ask anyone who has played enough to tell what's up. I don't play Ranger, Mesmer or Necromancer yet I can tell what's going based off just face value after facing them for a while and actually BOTHERING to learn the game rather than being oblivious to the content like it shouldn't exist.

 

2: Without conquest you render half the game content useless, see 2v2/3v3/TDM for best examples. Having an objective to defend is the best way to make use of all type of content.

 

This thread hyperboles a lot of things that we see pretty much in any game, even FPS games for that matter.

1 - no Im not. Been there done that, read chat during ESL streams (prime of pvp age), heard streamers from outside of gw2 mentioning it, it IS a thing. Of course its possible to tell whats going on, but thats for people that play the game, and even then during bigger teamfights you dont see all the stuff you should see. And game is not even close to being complex, quick example - look at how many bots que ranked and what divisions they reach. Watch WoW arenas, I can show it to my gf and Im more than sure she'll notice what button/skill is being used. In gw2 its clunky, for outsiders its just a bunch of randomly happening stuff. Thats the plus of gw2 combat that some people see (dynamic combat) and minus for viewers/streams.
2 - Without conquest from the beginning this game could overcome WoW combat. Sadly class specifics and balance were created around conquest, 2s/3s/TDM are not examples, because they were added in late HoT/PoF which is waaay too late to change anything. What type of content? Bunker content that most people just snooze about on forums, roaming thats constantly being cried on forums (I see 'how to handle and balance roaming' thread more than once a month)? Conquest promotes lots and lots of toxic builds, way more than arenas in MMO could ever provide (not only WoW, counting other MMOs as well).

Yes, it hyperboles, but core remains true. And best example of that is why certain pvp company left, gw2 pvp advertisment is dead, and gw2 is one of the least watched 'big mmos' on twitch.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Widmo.3186

[Shao.7236]

20 minutes ago, Gobcrack.9320 said:

 

I have never in my life seen anyone get excited for a GW2 tournament, event or PvP stream.

 

I can't even name you two or three relevant players despite this game being over half a decade old.

 

This game does NOT look good to your average viewer, it's not even that it's complex but it's that it just looks visually unappealing to people unless they play GW2 in the first place and even most PvE GW2 players don't watch PvP content because it's lame.

 

 

No MMO like game is EVER appealing to the common mortal. Let alone MOBA's making the cut just enough, FPS games are where you truly get a casual viewer the attention because the premise is very simple and put in perspective for them as well because "First Person View".

 

GW2 doesn't in the visual department at all considering they had to even tone it down after release. You're comparing so many things that don't make sense altogether, especially coming from PvE why would they be interested if they don't care about it in the first place.

 

PvP content is definitely not lame, surely can be brought down to a snooze fest for the most boring of builds that people tend to favor to just farm gold, but for players like me who strive to play different or push the limits of interesting builds, it's DEFINITELY a lot of interesting fun and good complexity, so much so that even the PvE players probably cannot even make sense out of it because they don't care enough that someone created some synergy that doesn't benefit their perspective of PvE to the game.

Maybe you don't find it fun having to run a hundred circles to beat someone while they are sleeping on their game, but I do and it's even more humiliating to those players alone if they fail. Well, only if that actually means anything considering how careless they already are for playing such boring things.

 

12 minutes ago, Widmo.3186 said:

1 - no Im not. Been there done that, read chat during ESL streams (prime of pvp age), heard streamers from outside of gw2 mentioning it, it IS a thing. Of course its possible to tell whats going on, but thats for people that play the game, and even then during bigger teamfights you dont see all the stuff you should see. And game is not even close to being complex, quick example - look at how many bots que ranked and what divisions they reach. Watch WoW arenas, I can show it to my gf and Im more than sure she'll notice what button/skill is being used. In gw2 its clunky, for outsiders its just a bunch of randomly happening stuff. Thats the plus of gw2 combat that some people see (dynamic combat) and minus for viewers/streams.
2 - Without conquest from the beginning this game could overcome WoW combat. Sadly class specifics and balance were created around conquest, 2s/3s/TDM are not examples, because they were added in late HoT/PoF which is waaay too late to change anything. What type of content? Bunker content that most people just snooze about on forums, roaming thats constantly being cried on forums (I see 'how to handle and balance roaming' thread more than once a month)? Conquest promotes lots and lots of kitten builds, way more than arenas in MMO could ever provide (not only WoW, counting other MMOs as well).

Yes, it hyperboles, but core remains true. And best example of that is why certain pvp company left, gw2 pvp advertisment is dead, and gw2 is one of the least watched 'big mmos' on twitch.

I'm sorry but your statement is not founded at all, you don't have anything to justify why GW2 action is more confusing than WoW action when they both literally do the same thing under a different hood which is pressing skill, effect ensure, result follows. If it really made no sense, no one would play it period.

 

The general public is honestly "dumb" and only taking things at face value rather than looking furthermore why things are the way it is and how to alleviate them. You have GW2 which has potentially the most casual way to be pickup and dropped anytime because there is no sub fee while you know that if you have something so simple then your game can get incredibly complex, you're bound to have complains because nobody is bothered to expand on it for themselves.

 

Yes GW2 definitely does not do much of the hand holding other than in PvE but that's a given in most games of the sort, GW2 definitely spoils the players more with simplicity than other games do which can influence the players ability to deal with more complex situations in the following, finding them non sensical even.

Edited January 23, 2022 by Shao.7236

[Gobcrack.9320]

2 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

PvP content is definitely not lame, surely can be brought down to a snooze fest for the most boring of builds that people tend to favor to just farm gold, but for players like me who strive to play different or push the limits of interesting builds, it's DEFINITELY a lot of interesting fun and good complexity, so much so that even the PvE players probably cannot even make sense out of it because they don't care enough that someone created some synergy that doesn't benefit their perspective of PvE to the game.

 

I'll give you that, there's def. potential in how intricate builds can go but you have to look at the tier list of players:

 

1. Hardcore

 

People who actually enjoy the complexity and are willing to spend time despite the state of the meta/game.

 

2. Normies

 

People trying to climb the ladder but they also do WvW, this isn't their main thing and in general people who grind for PvE purposes like dailies/legendary gear.

 

3. Casuals

 

Just trying out the game mode, might be their first time in GW2. People who are just learning the game, classes, different builds, etc. Very non-committed people just looking for fun.

 

There's more Normies/Casuals than Hardcore, and despite the game being complex if a majority of players are too bored and can't be bothered to play the current meta or even find it remotely interesting then it doesn't matter how complex the game can get, it will forever be a mini-game to most people that no one will care about.

 

If people want the complexity of the game to be highlighted, then there has to be easier entry for new people and when you have a game that tries to "Reinvent the wheel" and have every class be able to do everything then most people are gonna be confused and naturally you're left with a really weird hybrid that failed to get a lot of people on board except for a small group that supports it. 

 

Either the meta or the core gameplay needs a change because whatever state it's in right now is on life support mode. 

[oscuro.9720]

2 hours ago, Widmo.3186 said:

1 - no Im not. Been there done that, read chat during ESL streams (prime of pvp age), heard streamers from outside of gw2 mentioning it, it IS a thing. Of course its possible to tell whats going on, but thats for people that play the game, and even then during bigger teamfights you dont see all the stuff you should see. And game is not even close to being complex, quick example - look at how many bots que ranked and what divisions they reach. Watch WoW arenas, I can show it to my gf and Im more than sure she'll notice what button/skill is being used. In gw2 its clunky, for outsiders its just a bunch of randomly happening stuff. Thats the plus of gw2 combat that some people see (dynamic combat) and minus for viewers/streams.
2 - Without conquest from the beginning this game could overcome WoW combat. Sadly class specifics and balance were created around conquest, 2s/3s/TDM are not examples, because they were added in late HoT/PoF which is waaay too late to change anything. What type of content? Bunker content that most people just snooze about on forums, roaming thats constantly being cried on forums (I see 'how to handle and balance roaming' thread more than once a month)? Conquest promotes lots and lots of toxic builds, way more than arenas in MMO could ever provide (not only WoW, counting other MMOs as well).

Yes, it hyperboles, but core remains true. And best example of that is why certain pvp company left, gw2 pvp advertisment is dead, and gw2 is one of the least watched 'big mmos' on twitch.

I don’t know anything about this, but I tried watching WOW arenas and I couldn’t tell wtf was going on…

I do agree that there are classes in gw2 that you literally can’t tell what’s going on from overly-flashy animations or too subtle animations. However, when fighting things like s/d thief, warrior, core guard/dragon hunter, and ranger, the  animations are clear, and what’s happening is readily apparent.

The big problem, IMO, that makes some things make no sense is large amounts of ground target AoE overlapping, low cast time skills (similarly an over abundance of quickness), and overly flashy animations. The other issue is horrible server side de sync that pervades the game and can really be a pain when fighting anything with a teleport.

Basically it doesn’t stem from the combat system, but from the power creep, specifically from POF, which tend to be the troublesome specifications in this regard. 

That’s just my thoughts though, and I know very little about gaming so /shrug 🙂 

Edited January 24, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

Build freedom is one of the main draws and positives of Gw2 PvP. 

We never have been and don't need to be locked into roles because people get to decide their own role for their team and playstyle.

 

Like was said here...

4 hours ago, Markri.9475 said:

Not sure I understand your meaning of "SKILL".

If everyone has every tool available; then is not the only thing that differ between players their Skill?

Everyone plays at the same level and can put together whatever they want. Its all about Skill and Profession/Game Knowledge.

People who understand their profession, all skills available, and the current meta at any given time will be the ones that can put together those really good builds that can fill multiple roles at once.

 

So no, I wouldn't point to one of the game's main positives and say that's why Gw2 PvP is dead or dying.

 

I'd say Gw2 PvP is dead/dying mostly because of...

-Neglect, and lack of communication even after we were promised there would be more transparency and more frequent updates.

-An unfair, incredibly frustrating, bordering on broken Ranked arena.

-And one of; if not THE WORST, and most boring metas Gw2 PvP has ever seen that is very off-putting to new players and content creators. 10 geriatric snails harmlessly pillow fighting over capture points for 10-15 minutes is way more fun to think about than it is to witness and be a part of.

 

[Gobcrack.9320]

28 minutes ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

-And one of; if not THE WORST, and most boring metas Gw2 PvP has ever seen that is very off-putting to new players and content creators. 10 geriatric snails harmlessly pillow fighting over capture points for 10-15 minutes is way more fun to think about than it is to witness and be a part of.

 

LOL this accurately describes the current state of the meta, 10/10. 

[Spellhunter.9675]

9 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

1: You're exaggerating, it's definitely possible to tell what's going on. 

Yes, it is possible. In terms of macro view. But it is so easy to miss small (but important) mechanical things when there is teamfight going on. Yet, mechanical outplays is what you will usually see in MMORPG PvP highlights. What you saw in gw2? Steal to rupt res signet, supply crate and lich. In WoW nowadays you can clearly see every important move and skill.

And I am not even talking about our Lord of Visual Clarity the Mighty Holosmith.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

If every class can do all those things, why do I only see 3-4 classes in most matchups, all with the same builds. Its almost like they're really good at doing very specific things instead.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[ScottBroChill.3254]

My only issue is they just keep nerfing stuff to remove diverse builds. You used to be able to make cool and creative off-meta builds but nowadays everything outside of meta builds is mostly highly ineffective.  

[TheBigPlay.7504]

I agreed with necro being op. But I laughed hard at the rest.

[Ragnar.4257]

Ah, yes, those pesky bunker-thieves and heal-mesmers and bursting guard-supports.

/eyeroll

[Genesis.5169]

OP your wrong, we have less build freedom then every before. There should be a forum filter to only see people who have played 1k+ hours and everyone else doesn't get to talk.

OP is WRONG IN EVERY POSSIBLE WAY IGNORE THIS THREAD. Anet please give us away to filter out people like this.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Genesis.5169