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GW2 PvP scene is dead because EVERY class can Tank/Heal/CC/DPS, it's ZERO skill gameplay.


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3 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

OP your wrong, we have less build freedom then every before. There should be a forum filter to only see people who have played 1k+ hours and everyone else doesn't get to talk.

OP is WRONG IN EVERY POSSIBLE WAY IGNORE THIS THREAD. Anet please give us away to filter out people like this.

 

Who cares?

 

GW2 as an entire game has less viewers than a D-tier WoW streamer lmao, this community is actually beyond dead it's just rolling over in it's grave now at the sight of all the White Knights clinging onto their last 20 people queueing. 

 

The meta is bad, the gameplay is boring and no one really cares about ranked unless you're a gold seller using bots to farm easy reward tracks.

 

If Dailies didn't exist, this game mode would be even more dead than it is right now.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Gobcrack.9320
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Despite what people's opinions are about WoW PvP, the raw statistical data shows that WoW PvP is the most watched MMO PvP in the entire genre.    It has Blizzard + 3rd party tournament suppo

Not sure I understand your meaning of "SKILL". If everyone has every tool available; then is not the only thing that differ between players their Skill?

Im tried of repeating myself about whats wrong with gw2 pvp, so Ill just shorten it to some things why watching gw2 is way less popular than WoW: 1 - type of combat gw2 presents. Its just a clown

4 hours ago, Gobcrack.9320 said:

 

Who cares?

 

 



You looked at the problem of gw2 balance for about 5 minutes and now all of a sudden you have this novel idea that nobodies ever thought about before.

 

The issue with your post…(which isn’t wrong btw), is that it overlooks the problem in a greater depth, and that this is a common mistake when looking at the problem. It’s this very thing that leads to a cycle of constant nerfs followed by constant buffs followed by constant nerfs and so on, until the entire game has been sterilized of the features that make it more balanced in the first place which is its diversity.

 

Diversity is the only thing that people should actually care about…it’s at the very center of all game balance and design. but because people don’t understand how it works, people overlook just how important diversity is to the balance of games. 
 

Here’s my suggestion because you are off to a good start…look into the problem deeper. Ask questions about the logical consequences of balance choices and take them to their logical conclusions.

 

You can also ask yourself this question: What are the exact steps one has to take to make a perfectly balanced game? 

 

the road to answering this question is what will lead to a better understanding of these complicated issues…also in trying to answer this question you will bump into how diversity is inextricably tied to the answer.

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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5 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Here’s my suggestion because you are off to a good start…look into the problem deeper. Ask questions about the logical consequences of balance choices and take them to their logical conclusions.

 

You can also ask yourself this question: What are the exact steps one has to take to make a perfectly balanced game? 

 

the road to answering this question is what will lead to a better understanding of these complicated issues…also in trying to answer this question you will bump into how diversity is inextricably tied to the answer.

 

Actually not a bad idea, I just wish the Devs with power to change things were asking these questions instead of the players trying to figure it out haha

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On 1/23/2022 at 12:44 PM, Gobcrack.9320 said:

Despite what people's opinions are about WoW PvP, the raw statistical data shows that WoW PvP is the most watched MMO PvP in the entire genre. 

 

It has Blizzard + 3rd party tournament support, pro player scene and a thriving content creator community which is why people often regard it as the best MMO in general and why it's been #1 for over a decade.

 

GW2 on the other hand went the opposite direction of WoW in terms of gameplay and decided to make it so that EVERY SINGLE CLASS class can Heal, Tank, CC AND DPS and now we have gameplay that feels incredibly spammy and everyone is now bunker classes with DPS which slows down gameplay A LOT and makes it super boring to watch/play.

 

Like just take a look at Necro for example, this class can be played at Core level and it can not only DPS and burst someone down incredibly fast but it has multiple HP bars via Shroud/Lich and on top of that it even has innate Healing, it can also CC incredibly well with fears.

 

This is a CORE class that not only BURST, it can BUNKER, it can also HEAL AND it can CC.

 

People in this community can't find anything wrong with this because guess what, Guardian can do this too. Most classes can do what they can do, so the meta becomes less about creativity and skill based gameplay and more so finding out which class can do the 5 different things faster and easier because at that point you'd be at a disadvantage NOT running it. 

 

People also love saying "You can play off meta", and that's fine because they're right but it has nothing to do with my point.

 

You can play off meta, you can play on meta, it doesn't matter. The gameplay itself is ruined by the fact that every class can do everything, it's lazy gameplay and it takes away role identity which further puts off a majority of gamers evident by the lack of people's interest in any GW2 PvP content.

 

This is a mixed bag. On one hand, every class has a heal skill and has things they can do to become more durable, The difference is how, and what they give up to do it. You can't play a support thief the same way you would play a support guardian. It's just not going to work. The condi builds deal damage and defend differently, power builds deal damage and defend differently, etc. I suppose once specter comes out you may have a better point to make here, but specter **still** won't be anywhere close to functioning the same was as a support guardian.

 

Furthermore, you're just...wrong about role identity. Necromancers and guardians aren't nearly as good roamers/decappers as rev, thief, ranger. A lot of classes **dream** of having the teamfight capability a necro has, or the group/teamfight/support a guardian has, but they don't. Every class can heal, deal damage, and mitigate damage in some way, yes, but that's a fraction of their actual role. Of course there's some overlap - warriors had a decent teamfight support build floating around for a while, though it seems to have faded into obscurity. But that overlap is generally a niche, and no class performs a role the same way. Warrior had shouts, healing, endurance regen, and....probably some other things I'm forgetting, I never looked into it much. Warrior did NOT have blocks or a load of stability or boons. There were distinct differences between the two.

 

You will also fail utterly if you try to make a thief a node bunker class. It's been tried before and it nerfed out of existence rather quickly every time it comes even slightly close to being functional. And core necro, outside of the obviously broken lich form, cannot burst relative to other classes. Sure, they can chain CC you, and if you run out of CC break/cleanse you'll steadily die over the course of 3-5 seconds, but in reality you probably just missed a dodge/cleanse/etc or something. There's a difference between dealing damage and dealing burst damage. Necro deals damage. It's burst is lackluster compared to the competition - again, excluding lich, which most people agree is broken, which leads me to my next point...

 

WoW gets much faster PvP updates than GW2. Lich has been borked up for a while now, and I imagine anet has a much smaller dev team than WoW. Them's the breaks, unfortunately. WoW also has more pvp-oriented game modes, just more...pvp content in general, whereas GW2 - sPvP, anyway - has been stuck with the same maps for years and it was only recently we got a new (imo, pretty awful one. The pathing is bad *weeps in thief* and the map mechanic might as well not exist).

 

That isn't to say GW2 pvp doesn't have other problems. Imo, it's meta doesn't change near fast enough to keep people interested. Personally, I think WoW's PvP is hot garbage, but it seems like it gets shaken up enough - and there are enough...toys? floating around in there for people to stay interested and invested. GW2 had that major pvp update like, a year ago and I can't remember if it's gotten any significant change since.

 

It really just sounds like you ran into the necro/guard duo wall and are frustrated - which is fine. Play the classes, ask questions, etc.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Curennos.9307 said:

It really just sounds like you ran into the necro/guard duo wall and are frustrated - which is fine. Play the classes, ask questions, etc.

 

The point I was making was seemingly missed on you.

 

Each class in this game has access to every type of spell, the balancing is garbage because everyone can do everything. It's some kind of MMO fantasy turned reality but the problem is that it's delusional to have a game work this way and still be something people want to play.

 

And there is ZERO Role Identity in this game.

 

I played GW1 and that game actually made every class feel respected, it felt like everything had it's own niche and it made for way more skill based combat. GW2 is literally the opposite, everything feels the same and if you know how to play one class rotation you can play the rest.

 

GW2 PvP failed and died because the combat is spammy as well, which is something you also didn't mention. You can literally see builds being a spam for 2 - 3 abilities and that's it, you can try to get technical but who cares when you can spam 3 button Core Necro and win teamfights?

 

Complexity doesn't mean anything if no one cares about it. 

 

 

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The current problem of sPvP are necro, guardians and to some extent weavers too.

Before necro used to be a really high skill cap profession with lot of positioning, LoS, terrain usage.

Right now it can be played even by an armless monkey and reach platinum in soloQ even by a silver player. Too much tankiness and also dps and the strongest condis of all game.

And how it is stupid that a stupid core class can support better than my druid which was born and meant to be a support? Not to mention guardian has at least other 2 viable builds to run, it's stupid. 

Weavers yeah, you just side node and against average players you can 2vs1 without dying for days and even maybe killing almost everything in 1vs1 scenarios, so yeah.

It's the usual stupidity of a poorly balanced game.

 

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1 hour ago, Gobcrack.9320 said:

 

Actually not a bad idea, I just wish the Devs with power to change things were asking these questions instead of the players trying to figure it out haha

 

I agree. it's in my opinion, that there are devs out there that probably understand these concepts to a higher degree than most civilians, since they are forced to think about it every day. There is a developer that I admire named Will Wright, that I think understands at a deep level, the ideas behind balance/diversity design and how they're are deeply connected. 

 

Another opinion of mine, is that even if the devs aren't knowledgeable, we at least have a responsibility as players, to understand the problem, so that we can have more informed discussion on the issues. There is some interplay between what the player-base wants, and what the devs do to the game, and in this way, the state of the game is a reflection of what the player-base wants. So if the player base for example, decides they want everything nerfed, we are more likely to see devs step in that will nerf everything...If the player-base wants downstate removed, they implement a no-down-state-week in WvW. So even though Anet has autonomy to make specific decisions, those decisions in aggregate is holding up a mirror of what the players wanted. 

 

So if we aren't thinking more deeply about these issues, we are only failing ourselves based on the above. I spent many years now myself  researching that question, and the truth is that the answer to that question will disappoint you...but it leads to even bigger questions that spill over not just into guild wars 2, but about how the world works, and after all this time, I gained an understanding and appreciation of the mechanism. One thing I appreciate about it, is how both simple and complicated it is....but really it's so facepalm obvious that it's crazy we didn't think of it earlier. In other words, i don't regret it.

If you want to skip the many years of researching the answer to the question, I have two posts here that sums it up with a logic proof, and then the inevitable consequences of the proof being true. I'm not asking you to believe it or if it's true or anything like that...simply just take it as a deeper analysis into the problem.

 

And lastly, if you want to figure out the "why" to the answer above, you should read the final 3 comments on this thread

 

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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30 minutes ago, Gobcrack.9320 said:

 

The point I was making was seemingly missed on you.

 

Each class in this game has access to every type of spell, the balancing is garbage because everyone can do everything. It's some kind of MMO fantasy turned reality but the problem is that it's delusional to have a game work this way and still be something people want to play.

 

And there is ZERO Role Identity in this game.

 

I played GW1 and that game actually made every class feel respected, it felt like everything had it's own niche and it made for way more skill based combat. GW2 is literally the opposite, everything feels the same and if you know how to play one class rotation you can play the rest.

 

GW2 PvP failed and died because the combat is spammy as well, which is something you also didn't mention. You can literally see builds being a spam for 2 - 3 abilities and that's it, you can try to get technical but who cares when you can spam 3 button Core Necro and win teamfights?

 

Complexity doesn't mean anything if no one cares about it. 

 

 

Ah, right. Knew I missed something - spam your skills and you'll die against someone who knows what they're doing. It's the best way to spend your resources in the most inefficient way possible. You can 'spam' things in WoW too, but it's just as inefficient over there if you blow all your cooldowns into an opponent's defensive cooldown and poof goes your burst because you traded multiple offensive cooldowns and X resources for a smaller amount of your opponent's resources and cooldowns.

 

Is GW2 more spammy than other games? Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. The reward is higher, it's even more cooldown based, etc. And while 'spamming' is something people grow out of, it's definitely something about average-tier play that should be looked at. That said, imo, this is more a problem with how flashy (or not-flashy) animations are done, and how much of a pain in the butt it can be for newer players to get to the point where they feel like they're fighting other players as opposed to fighting the game (which is fine at first, but in GW2 it probs takes too long to get past that point). The best example of this is, imo, greatsword shatter mesmer. They can fit...Greatsword #5, Greatsword #2, Greatsword #3, Mantra utility skill (forget the name, it's just 'does damage'), a teleport utility skill skill (Blink), and a shatter (f1), into a very small time interval. This results in extremely high burst damage and was an issue a while back where they'd just pop out of stealth and 1-shot people. I forget why it faded away, but it also meant that a single dodge (of which you have two, and regenerates rather quickly and easily) would negate EVERYTHING. A single dodge negating that many skills, if you could pull it off, totally negated almost everything the mesmer could possibly do to you. Similarly, if a necromancer spams a bunch of skills at you, you just pick whatever mitigation mechanism fits the situation and you make that trade....Or you die because you mismanaged your resources, and then that's a player issue.

 

Let's give this another go. Your points are:

 

Everyone can do everything/lack of role identity

This is wrong because not everyone can do everything - they merely have access to a certain selection of game-wide mechanics. EVERYONE has access to two dodges everyone has access to a heal skill, everyone has access to three utilities and an elite, plus weapons (with some exceptions, such as ele, engineer, etc). 

 

These skills do not do things in the same way. There is a vast difference between a necromancer's heal skill (which is 99% of the time that condi-consume skill), and, say, a thief's Withdraw which is a heal/immob clear/evade.

 

Roles are also rather clearly defined, with some - imo, acceptable - overlap. Necromancer's are THE teamfighters. You can 'roam' in a necromancer in the sense that you can walk your character to the far node, decap, and come back to mid, but generally you're expected to be in a teamfight. Other classes have some teamfight ability, but do not do so in the same way as necro - they have more evades but less health etcetc.

 

Similarly, you can teamfight on a thief, but you have to be careful, hover near the edges, do it in a different way than a necro or guardian, and if your opponents are any good/you know what you're doing you'll rotate out quickly enough.

 

It's important to note that GW2 does not implement the holy trinity the same way as other games. Which is fine, but I think this might be where you're getting messed up a bit. Everyone has a heal skill, yes- that doesn't make them a 'healer'. Necromancer deals damage - that doesn't make it a burst damage class (on core, anyway). Necromancer has CC that will definitely kill you if you run out of stunbreaks/cleanse - that doesn't necessarily make it a CC or burst class, it just means you messed up, mismanaged your resources in a way that a class with necro's more consistent damage and selection of CC killed you. It's worth pointing out that necromancer has an elite specialization, reaper, which IS a burst spec. It deals much more damage than core necro does in a certain period of time, but has less sustain (the 2nd health bar decreases faster, it's forced into melee, etc).

 

Unlike WoW, GW2 is NOT built around a DPS class having minimal to zero healing while a healer has zero to minimal damage and tanks are blobs of mitigation without much damage or healing (with, of course, variation - see WoW's DKs, bear druids, etc, but they are still 'tanks', same way disc priest is still a 'priest').

 

GW2's pvp roles are DPS, support, side noder, and roamer...And probably one more I'm missing, but you can kind of fold DPS/support into 'mid/team-fighter'. 

 

 lays it out rather well - they have a 'bruiser'. I always forget the bruisers. Vallun on youtube also had a good video about the pvp roles, but I can't find it at the moment.

 

I really, really try to avoid 'git gud' sort of answers, but it seems like you don't really understand the roles spvp has and how they function. You can try to shove GW2's combat and roles into the same one WoW's fits into, but it'll fail because they're not the same.

 

If you like, feel free to further elaborate on what you mean by 'zero role identity' and 'every class has access to every type of spell'. I'd be interested to know what kind of roles you're trying to fit classes into and what your expectations are, because without that I can only go off what you've given me - which, in this case, leads to my earlier notes about how you seem to have misunderstood how GW2's roles and classes work. This is a very different combat system compared to WoW and GW1.

 

 

 

Edited by Curennos.9307
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49 minutes ago, Gobcrack.9320 said:

Each class in this game has access to every type of spell,

the balancing is garbage because everyone can do everything.

And there is ZERO Role Identity in this game.

Utterly ridiculous assertion with no basis in reality.

You cannot heal/support with a thief like you can with a guardian.

You cannot spike/roam with a guardian like you can with a thief.

Mesmer does not at all play like Warrior.

The idea that a S/F Ele plays the same as a decap-Druid, is laughable.

To suggest that every class can do everything equally is absurd, that they are all interchangeable with no identifitiable roles...... you're making yourself look ridiculous.

GW2 PvP has many problems holding it back, but the ones you've posted here are not them.

Edited by Ragnar.4257
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53 minutes ago, Curennos.9307 said:

Let's give this another go. Your points are:

 

Everyone can do everything/lack of role identity

This is wrong because not everyone can do everything - they merely have access to a certain selection of game-wide mechanics. EVERYONE has access to two dodges everyone has access to a heal skill, everyone has access to three utilities and an elite, plus weapons (with some exceptions, such as ele, engineer, etc). 

 

These skills do not do things in the same way. There is a vast difference between a necromancer's heal skill (which is 99% of the time that condi-consume skill), and, say, a thief's Withdraw which is a heal/immob clear/evade.

 

I'll just step in here because I know that at the heart of this topic, what the OP is saying is true to an extent and I understand what he's referring to when it comes to classes doing the same things, and the lack of role identity.

 

The first thing to point out is the differences between Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2, and the capacity to which builds could operate in such a way, that one could consider a build unique in it's own right. My favorite example of a build that operated so differently than anything else is Contagion Spike. This build is special because it functioned in a way that one could write a paper about how you could classify it as an organism. In terms of how different it was compared to other builds it was indeed different...and not recognizable as being the same as any other build in guild wars. 

 

The above is not unique to just Contagion Spike but to many many builds in guild wars that operated in such a different way, that they had to be classified as different builds. This also happens to be why we had such colorful names for builds in Guild Wars like "Rainbow Way" and "Euro Spike" "Nightmare Spike" "Hex Way"...many builds were named after their creators or guilds instead of their skills names because people were running out of names to use from the skills to describe the builds and how they worked.

 

Compare this kind of diversity to what we have in Guild Wars 2...Where the different between a Power Reaper with a Greatsword and a Power Reaper with a Dagger, are basically the same thing because they still operate in the same way...so we just consider them both reapers. Across classes, many skills also share these incidental properties...where many skills pretty much do the same kinds of things, but offer no way to play that class differently than any other class.

 

So for example, Class A has a Skill X which does some healing and cleanses conditions...while Class B has a skill Y which does some healing and gives you boons. The difference between these two skills is incidental because they don't offer any new ways to play the game differently...and this is the homogenous elements of the game that the OP is probably talking about...Many of the skills do the same kinds of things in this manner, and therefor many classes play the same kinds of builds with same kinds of rolls, and the only differences between them are incidental rather than defining.

 

There are a select number of key traits/skills that DO make classes play differently that give them a kind of uniqueness that allows those builds to play in a some-what unique fashion, but over time these key traits and skills have gotten nerfed pretty much into uselessness, and so the result is that these builds die in favor of builds that actually function. The meta gets smaller as a result, and the competition for competition against builds that can perform a role gets tighter...

 

An example of that, is that there are less ways to deal with a say, a thief decapper where the only form of competition is for yourself to be a thief decapper in order to compete...because there are less alternative (and truly unique) ways to accomplish the same goals.

 

Anyway just to conclude, I just want to mention that the OP is not totally wrong here, they just need to do more research on the topic at hand because the conclusion that's drawn is too hasty. 

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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1 hour ago, Gobcrack.9320 said:

 

The point I was making was seemingly missed on you.

 

Each class in this game has access to every type of spell, the balancing is garbage because everyone can do everything. It's some kind of MMO fantasy turned reality but the problem is that it's delusional to have a game work this way and still be something people want to play.

 

And there is ZERO Role Identity in this game.

 

I played GW1 and that game actually made every class feel respected, it felt like everything had it's own niche and it made for way more skill based combat. GW2 is literally the opposite, everything feels the same and if you know how to play one class rotation you can play the rest.

 

GW2 PvP failed and died because the combat is spammy as well, which is something you also didn't mention. You can literally see builds being a spam for 2 - 3 abilities and that's it, you can try to get technical but who cares when you can spam 3 button Core Necro and win teamfights?

 

Complexity doesn't mean anything if no one cares about it. 

 

 

The role identity in GW2 is still there, it’s just a bit different I think, so less apparent to someone used to a more rigid and defined role system. A side boxer is going to be built differently and fulfill a different role than a roamed, who will be very different from someone built for team fights.

Though I will absolutely agree that the last 2 years this difference has been as minimal as it’s ever been with the bunker meta imo. It’s the reason I stopped PvPing a bit ago. It used to be much more diverse. As I said in a previous post, your points have become much more legitimate the longer PoF has been out, but prior to that the amount of spam-and win, bunker gameplay was a lot less, and they would generally have 1 or 2 hard counters. 
I would still argue the combat is more engaging/superior than the vast majority of MMOs, but it is extremely messy now, and some classes are downright obnoxious to fight against, and these classes add a larger learning requirement to the game that is prohibitive to new players. 
However, these are just opinions, so do with it what you will 🙂 

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This game and it's balance was doomed as soon as the devs decided that they were going to try and be unique vs other mmos by having their classes be viable for every role, sounds great on paper but is a disaster in practice which is why it hasn't ever been successfully done. Every class should be effective at its chosen role and its playstyle driven by that role. Players then choose the class/playstyle that is effective in the roles they enjoy performing. This works because if u want to tank u chose a tank class with moderate dps and don't expect to have crazy mobility or burst damage and thus don't complain about not having those thing because YOU chose that class and it's roll, just like u wouldn't chose a high mobility burst class and expect it to tank or have sustained damage than complain that it doesn't online because people would simply say we'll u chose a mobile burst class what do u expect?

Anet needs needs to abandon this idiotic idea and if they ever did than balancing the roster just may become within these devs scope.

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1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

I'll just step in here because I know that at the heart of this topic, what the OP is saying is true to an extent and I understand what he's referring to when it comes to classes doing the same things, and the lack of role identity.

 

The first thing to point out is the differences between Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2, and the capacity to which builds could operate in such a way, that one could consider a build unique in it's own right. My favorite example of a build that operated so differently than anything else is Contagion Spike. This build is special because it functioned in a way that one could write a paper about how you could classify it as an organism. In terms of how different it was compared to other builds it was indeed different...and not recognizable as being the same as any other build in guild wars. 

 

The above is not unique to just Contagion Spike but to many many builds in guild wars that operated in such a different way, that they had to be classified as different builds. This also happens to be why we had such colorful names for builds in Guild Wars like "Rainbow Way" and "Euro Spike" "Nightmare Spike" "Hex Way"...many builds were named after their creators or guilds instead of their skills names because people were running out of names to use from the skills to describe the builds and how they worked.

 

Compare this kind of diversity to what we have in Guild Wars 2...Where the different between a Power Reaper with a Greatsword and a Power Reaper with a Dagger, are basically the same thing because they still operate in the same way...so we just consider them both reapers. Across classes, many skills also share these incidental properties...where many skills pretty much do the same kinds of things, but offer no way to play that class differently than any other class.

 

So for example, Class A has a Skill X which does some healing and cleanses conditions...while Class B has a skill Y which does some healing and gives you boons. The difference between these two skills is incidental because they don't offer any new ways to play the game differently...and this is the homogenous elements of the game that the OP is probably talking about...Many of the skills do the same kinds of things in this manner, and therefor many classes play the same kinds of builds with same kinds of rolls, and the only differences between them are incidental rather than defining.

 

There are a select number of key traits/skills that DO make classes play differently that give them a kind of uniqueness that allows those builds to play in a some-what unique fashion, but over time these key traits and skills have gotten nerfed pretty much into uselessness, and so the result is that these builds die in favor of builds that actually function. The meta gets smaller as a result, and the competition for competition against builds that can perform a role gets tighter...

 

An example of that, is that there are less ways to deal with a say, a thief decapper where the only form of competition is for yourself to be a thief decapper in order to compete...because there are less alternative (and truly unique) ways to accomplish the same goals.

 

Anyway just to conclude, I just want to mention that the OP is not totally wrong here, they just need to do more research on the topic at hand because the conclusion that's drawn is too hasty. 

I think this is fair. Whether because of the OP's phrasing or because my thoughtmeats are particularly smooth today, it didn't get across otherwise. Ty for that rephrase. Quick warning here, but I'm partially writing this out to follow a train of thought, so...you have been warned. Where will I end up? Who knows.

 

That said - I'll disagree slightly with this one. There is a not-insignificant difference in playstyle if you switch to a dagger instead of a greatsword (not the least of which is the offhand you use, but we'll set that aside for now). The difference becomes negligible not because the weapons themselves, necessarily, don't offer a different way to play, but because the rest of reaper - and other classes - are so strong in their roles that it's still not enough. The dagger doesn't contribute enough to the reaper's main job, and so it isn't taken. Dagger **is** different, and that's why it doesn't really see any play. 

 

People can, in fact, build necro to be less mobile - folks could give up wurm and spectral walk for skills that increase durability or somesuch, but this rarely happens.

 

Similarly for thief, where shortbow and thief's overall mobility (and by thief I mean shortbow because they're basically the same thing at this point) is just so strong that they're not allowed to do anything else. sword/dagger is a perfectly decent setup. d/p is a nice weapon. But using d/p-sword/dagger is just not done because thief is a roamer/decapper and that's that.

 

So, players can absolutely slot utilities to change their playstyle - though, personally, I don't think a single utility or any such thing should be as defining as OP/you/whoever may want it to be, if I've understood this correctly. And, that said, players can still swap out all their utility skills, and there's definitely enough variance in there to change playstyles - 'gives boons' doesn't sound like much, and lots of classes have skills that give boons, but that doesn't mean that the three utility slots combined, even (as putting the weight of being defining on a single utility skill is far too heavy, imo), can change playstyles. 'Gives boons and does x' is generic, but the kind of boon can vastly impact things - a skill giving me swiftness is meh, but protection, woo! Now I start slotting other utility skills, and i can take two more skills that give me protection, or heal, or something, or I can take two more skills that give me swiftness, or superspeed, or some other equivalent movement ability.

 

The problem is that the most mobile necromancer in the universe is still a crawling child compared to almost every other class, much less a thief who has even the bare minimum invested into mobility. You don't see teamfight thieves because 99% of the time you know you'll be teamfighting against a necromancer and thief just doesn't hold a candle to necro in that regard. I think this is another case of, unique does not mean useful. There **are** unique ways to play classes - a lot of them, really, and changing a weapon can have a significant impact, but the competition is too strong and your original purpose is too valued, so get back in line. In this case, I'd call it too much identity/roles/w-e.

 

I've long praised GW2 for its imaginative class design when a lot of games are homogenizing class designs to the point where everything is not only functionally the same, but almost literally the exact same except for animations, has no depth, and/or a combination of these, but it may be that its class design is...TOO unique and strong in their class identity, to the point where they push everything else out. Nerfing thief's mobility would 1) Make some room for other classes to try and inch towards the role, even if they still couldn't exactly match thief they might be able to do it in their own unique way using utility skills, traits, etc to differentiate their build 2) Give room for thief to have other options beyond decap and +1 bot.

 

That said, maybe elite specs are anet's way of dealing with this issue, who knows. Thief is getting more durable and some support options, and everyone else is getting...more ports and evades, lol, good on 'em tbh. At the very least, I hope that one day I can play a teamfight thief and have my allies go "Props dude, suffer well and good luck" instead of "Are you throwing this match for your friend on the other team? How much did they pay you? Switch to necro pls".

 

Context: I mostly play thief/necromancer so I pick on them in posts a lot.

 

Anywho, good post, etcetc, agree with most (all? Again, maybe I am super smoothbrained today, who knows) but I think we agree on this, good talk, time to go eat a cheesesteak.

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21 minutes ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

This game and it's balance was doomed as soon as the devs decided that they were going to try and be unique vs other mmos by having their classes be viable for every role, sounds great on paper but is a disaster in practice which is why it hasn't ever been successfully done. Every class should be effective at its chosen role and its playstyle driven by that role. Players then choose the class/playstyle that is effective in the roles they enjoy performing. This works because if u want to tank u chose a tank class with moderate dps and don't expect to have crazy mobility or burst damage and thus don't complain about not having those thing because YOU chose that class and it's roll, just like u wouldn't chose a high mobility burst class and expect it to tank or have sustained damage than complain that it doesn't online because people would simply say we'll u chose a mobile burst class what do u expect?

Anet needs needs to abandon this idiotic idea and if they ever did than balancing the roster just may become within these devs scope.

  1. I'd argue GW2 succeeded in creating a very healthy combat system within the design that they set for themselves (i.e. fairly self-sufficient classes). It's not a disaster in practice. It's actually the best combat system of its type, and probably why most of us play it. Are there flaws? yes. Is the pace of updates slower than continental drift? also yes.
  2. Every spec is effective at its chosen role*. It's just that those roles are more complicated than the simple "tank/healer/dps" trinity of old, and the lines are drawn at the build level not the "class" level. Example: side-noder, duelist, +1-er, teamfight support, etc.
  3. This "idiotic idea", as you call it, is the core design principle of the game. It's not going to change. The game was built around around it.

*(and the ones that aren't need some balance help, but they should be effective)

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What i would do to fix gw2 gameplay:


1. increase health pools
2.reduce healing values from 6 skills and many others
3.bring back healer supports to support their allies

So by doing this you literally turn gw2 combat into something similar that wow has but better. So healers would have their job as they would be main sustain source for their team and because of larger health pools there wouldn't be problem with overhealing or missing big heals. And people would focus healers first to deny fights to last too long which would deny focused targets to deny death. So it would be big risk and big reward to play healer. Another thing that needs to come up with it is better visibility of allied boons/buffs and enemy debuffs. Currently such things are very small and on very side which makes people forget about who gave 25 might to allies or who gave protection to allies, cleanses, heals etc 

Many things cannot be seen properly and roles cannot really relay on each other but every role is teamfighter, roamer or side nodes. 

Another problem we have is aoe powercreep, so there are too many spells that hit 5 targets and do same damage to single target as single target spell but because of 5 targets that damage can be 5 times larger, so if few people drop big aoes on multiple people it turns massive damage powercreep. This is very specific problem for wvw as casting range big damage aoe is always better and stronger option than melee single target spell.

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10 hours ago, Gobcrack.9320 said:

Who cares?

Not vibing with that. A lot of people care enough to dispel silly arguments, obviously. 

 

I think in some small way, I agree with the very core idea of OP's post, but I still think that conclusion is wrong. 

4 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

Everyone can do everything/lack of role identity

The irony is that class/role identity doesn't really mean anything, and if "Everyone can do everything" were true, that would be closer to balance than what we have now. 

The problem has never been "everyone can do everything", but rather it has consistently been iterations of "This one class can do everything in one build/these classes can do everything in one build, while other classes can only do half of a role in one build.".

Those two things are not the same, and you are missing critical information when you describe it as such. 

 If traits and classes that took them were taken more seriously, so that:

  • if you wanted to be a tank you could do that on -every- class, but that is all you could do on that build, 
  • if you wanted to be support, you could do that on -every- class, but that is all you could do on that build (no dps, no tanking on your own)
  • If you wanted to be a dps, you could do that on -every- class, but that is all you could do on that build (no tanking, no support)

Then that would go a long way to solving a lot of the issues people perpetually have hangups with; namely, that class X FoTM can do three conquest roles at once and therefore nobody plays anything else because face it, why would you - while class Y cannot even do the most thematic role for its class without being easily countered/having an option to build in a different way that makes it usable for conquest. 

We haven't really made any significant balance progression for years. It's consistently been "Class X can do damage, bunker and support in this gamemode that rewards doing those things, and Class Y cannot" until class X gets nerfed and people find the next thing that can fill Class X's archetype. 

That archetype is definitely unhealthy, but if more builds were viable and came with clear drawbacks for setting up to fill a role, instead of this balancing action being years upon years upon years of "nerf what is currently annoying into oblivion"  we'd be much better off. 

Niches that are class locked don't matter, and the lack of them isn't even fractionally responsible for why pvp is so dead. PVP decline is due to team limitations, poor balancing for the class iterations we do have, (the meta rewarding boring playstyles and not rewarding risky ones), and exploitation/match manipulation being rampant and long-running. Surprisingly, people don't like playing team games where they at best have a 50/50 shot of getting a bot sandbag team unless they skirt the rules, especially when a couple of classes perform better than the others.

Quote

zero skill

right conclusion, wrong math, I think. 

The meta has, over time, consistently rewarded low effort builds with value as a conquest pick. That doesn't have anything to do with each class not having a specific niche that they cannot build outside of, It is a result of people being able to fill multiple roles with single builds, regardless of class. The whole game is built around being able to build -outside- of a specific class niche, just look at the elite specs we continue to get.

The problems start when those builds can do multiple conquest appropriate things (again, in one build, class agnostic) at high efficiency, as opposed to being good at one thing in exchange for being bad at another or multiple things. Then when those multi purpose builds become popular or frequently run, they continue to run for months or even years undisturbed. 

Edited by Azure The Heartless.3261
right conclusion, wrong math
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Lots of good points in your posts guys.

 

7 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

I've long praised GW2 for its imaginative class design when a lot of games are homogenizing class designs to the point where everything is not only functionally the same, but almost literally the exact same except for animations, has no depth, and/or a combination of these, but it may be that its class design is...TOO unique and strong in their class identity, to the point where they push everything else out. Nerfing thief's mobility would 1) Make some room for other classes to try and inch towards the role, even if they still couldn't exactly match thief they might be able to do it in their own unique way using utility skills, traits, etc to differentiate their build 2) Give room for thief to have other options beyond decap and +1 bot.

Please do not compare the depth of the game WoW DoT Cleave and GW2 Condition game. Understand that even setups in 3s have their own names (Shadow cleave, Shadow play, Heroic cleave, etc).

Gw2 still needs to go through a more evolutionary process in order for the condition game to become more multifaceted, or this will be its limit.

Edit:

P. S. Examples of multifaceted conditions - after removing a certain new condition (name) cleansing or removal, there is an explosion radius or lowering of healing or lowering barrier (many variants of how it could look like). 

With more options, more options open up for the counter game and the macro game as a whole becomes more voluminous.

Edited by DomHemingway.8436
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On 1/23/2022 at 6:44 PM, Gobcrack.9320 said:

Despite what people's opinions are about WoW PvP, the raw statistical data shows that WoW PvP is the most watched MMO PvP in the entire genre. 

 

It has Blizzard + 3rd party tournament support, pro player scene and a thriving content creator community which is why people often regard it as the best MMO in general and why it's been #1 for over a decade.

 

GW2 on the other hand went the opposite direction of WoW in terms of gameplay and decided to make it so that EVERY SINGLE CLASS class can Heal, Tank, CC AND DPS and now we have gameplay that feels incredibly spammy and everyone is now bunker classes with DPS which slows down gameplay A LOT and makes it super boring to watch/play.

 

Like just take a look at Necro for example, this class can be played at Core level and it can not only DPS and burst someone down incredibly fast but it has multiple HP bars via Shroud/Lich and on top of that it even has innate Healing, it can also CC incredibly well with fears.

 

This is a CORE class that not only BURST, it can BUNKER, it can also HEAL AND it can CC.

 

People in this community can't find anything wrong with this because guess what, Guardian can do this too. Most classes can do what they can do, so the meta becomes less about creativity and skill based gameplay and more so finding out which class can do the 5 different things faster and easier because at that point you'd be at a disadvantage NOT running it. 

 

People also love saying "You can play off meta", and that's fine because they're right but it has nothing to do with my point.

 

You can play off meta, you can play on meta, it doesn't matter. The gameplay itself is ruined by the fact that every class can do everything, it's lazy gameplay and it takes away role identity which further puts off a majority of gamers evident by the lack of people's interest in any GW2 PvP content.

 

You just wrote a wall of text that boils down to "GW2 is bad because it's not WoW". And even though you typed this much, not even a hint of suggestion on how to make the game better.

So eh... if everything is bad because of the very foundations are wrong, and you have no idea how to fix that... why are you here? Especially when you can watch WoW streams instead, they have many viewers I've heard. 

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19 hours ago, Gobcrack.9320 said:

 

Who cares?

 

GW2 as an entire game has less viewers than a D-tier WoW streamer lmao, this community is actually beyond dead it's just rolling over in it's grave now at the sight of all the White Knights clinging onto their last 20 people queueing. 

 

The meta is bad, the gameplay is boring and no one really cares about ranked unless you're a gold seller using bots to farm easy reward tracks.

 

If Dailies didn't exist, this game mode would be even more dead than it is right now.

 

 

 

 

If your metric for a good game is streaming you have no idea what a good game is. Please stop posting your doing us no good at all. And at the very least you to say that statement "who cares" means either A you know your lying or B you know its a bad idea.

Either or your statement is neither not true or not in good faith for the game so please stop.

Edited by Genesis.5169
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I feel like the biggest problem with PvP balance atm is the current trend of continuously batting down the outliers in pursuit of balance, but unfortunately this is making everything more normalised and samey, and the difference between different roles/archetypes is being compressed together. IMO in the past for the most part damage/support/roamer/duelist/bunker etc. all felt different and had distinctive strengths and weaknesses.

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I've played WoW pvp for over a decade and completely don't agree with OP.  

First of all, in the current state every WoW class has multiple surv CDs and access to heal, in pvp resulting in exactly what the OP is accusing gw2.

Secondly, WoW requires much less skill because:

- it's tab target combat 

- it has GCD 

This result in much slower gameplay and more of planning ahead and saving CDs for when enemies use their CDs, it's more like a chess game.

 

Everytime I came back to gw2 from wow i got rekt in pvp, being surprised how quick and punishing it is, and the other way around - when I took break from GW2 and tried wow I always thought how easy is wow pvp.

 

I'm not even gonna mention that wow pvp is gear dependent which right away kills the essence of competition because it promotes passive gains over skill and equal start.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, DomHemingway.8436 said:

Lots of good points in your posts guys.

 

Please do not compare the depth of the game WoW DoT Cleave and GW2 Condition game. Understand that even setups in 3s have their own names (Shadow cleave, Shadow play, Heroic cleave, etc).

Gw2 still needs to go through a more evolutionary process in order for the condition game to become more multifaceted, or this will be its limit.

Edit:

P. S. Examples of multifaceted conditions - after removing a certain new condition (name) cleansing or removal, there is an explosion radius or lowering of healing or lowering barrier (many variants of how it could look like). 

With more options, more options open up for the counter game and the macro game as a whole becomes more voluminous.

I'm not. I'm referring to GW2's class-defining features, such as reaper shroud, thief steal/ini system, mesmer shatters/clones, etc.

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On 1/24/2022 at 7:37 PM, coro.3176 said:
  1. I'd argue GW2 succeeded in creating a very healthy combat system within the design that they set for themselves (i.e. fairly self-sufficient classes). It's not a disaster in practice. It's actually the best combat system of its type, and probably why most of us play it. Are there flaws? yes. Is the pace of updates slower than continental drift? also yes.
  2. Every spec is effective at its chosen role*. It's just that those roles are more complicated than the simple "tank/healer/dps" trinity of old, and the lines are drawn at the build level not the "class" level. Example: side-noder, duelist, +1-er, teamfight support, etc.
  3. This "idiotic idea", as you call it, is the core design principle of the game. It's not going to change. The game was built around around it.

*(and the ones that aren't need some balance help, but they should be effective)

1- the actual combat mechanics or  design  have 0 to do with healthy balance, playstyles and gameplay. Yes gw2 has great combat. The design and skill designs not so great, look at wvw, look at scourge, flame thrower engi/scrapper, fb superiority in wvw and pve for ever, the thief complaints,burn guard, trapper guard, imob druid and so on.....all great skill designs, especially scourge haha.

2- u say the idea of classes fits all roles is fine and just makes things more complex, yes I agree......too complex for the team at anet obviously hence why it was a mistake.

3- ur right and accepting such u may as well accept this games very probable continued decline in population and reputation. This games population will have a increase in population for a couple months post EoD than fall back into its sad declining groove, but I'm glad ur ok with how the game currently is. Enjoy 🙂

Edited by Psycoprophet.8107
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6 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

If your metric for a good game is streaming you have no idea what a good game is.

 

Sorry but people need to understand we exist in 2022 and not in 2002.

 

Twitch and YouTube are the biggest metrics to determine user interest because Arenanet/Big studios do not reveal player statistics anymore, so for the most part when we see a genuine interest that isn't forced by a corporation then it would appear to a majority of other people that this might be worth something to check out.

 

Does this mean games like GW2 that fall below a certain view count is dead? Yes. It does, it means no one is actively streaming or creating content which means the community is stale and only exists within the confines of a subreddit or a forum like this which is again not a lot of people aka Dead.

 

What does a Dead community look like? Take GW2 for example, you have no one wanting to invest their time and money into making guides or tutorials or even general content because there's zero return for them due to low playerbase/viewership. This is a ripple effect because now new players only rely on very old content/guides that might not be current meta and if the meta is same as past 8 months to now, then it gives even more of the impression that the game is on maintenance mode which is currently the reality of why we're in this current meta to begin with.

 

I get that you like GW2, you probably invested a lot of time into it and it seems like a new comer like me just coming in and ruining the fun but this is reality.

 

There might not be more new comers after me if everyone is told to stop talking or posting if it's doesn't fit a specific narrative that makes the white knights happy. 

Edited by Gobcrack.9320
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