Let's be honest, other professions are the problem...

[JTGuevara.9018]

The gw2 expansions have left warrior in the dust. While the expansions introduced new profession mechanics, warriors did not really get anything substantial to speak except for...more damage. Warriors not only have had to deal with their profession's limits, they have had to deal with other professions' NEW mechanics on top of that. Warriors simply DO NOT have the tools to deal with all of this powercreep bs. Other classes have reliable access to barrier, protection, damage nullification, AoEs, slow, chill, blind, alacrity, super-speed, cripple, immobilize. Warriors have not...one...of...those. And no, I do not count the laughable access to berserker taunt and spellbreaker goofy anti-stealth mechanics as "substantial". Warriors have had to exceed their profession's limits just to break even dealing with all this garbage. And yet people have the nerve to say warrior is in a "good spot", that it is "brain-dead"? Laughable. Absolutely laughable! We are in a BAD spot, folks. Not the worst spot, but definitely a bad spot!

 

Also, warrior, if its identity intends to be kept, MUST revitalize the weapon master concept. With each expansion release, each class will receive a weapon with that class eventually becoming a de-facto "weapons master". And then what does warrior have?...

 

You know what? Whatever...discuss..go!

[oscuro.9720]

The problem really came in POF, it wasn’t very dramatic in HOT, as most of the classes were still animation-heavy with impact scaling with animation. I-frame uptime was lower, damage was more balanced, and boon spam was dramatically less. PoF is really where all of that was added en-masse.

With the addition of spam-driven gameplay mechanics, spellbreakers mechanics were maximized (full counter punished out-of-control spamming). With its high damage, spell was a good counter to literally everyone who couldn’t time skills properly. 
 

However, the increased TTK and de-emphasis on core gameplay mechanics (timing dodges and blocks) decreased player skill dramatically, causing them to believe spell breaker was the problem instead of the degradation of their ability to properly time skill use.

Some classes had legitimate gripes (Mesmer and guardian) as they had no recourse for keeping their class mechanics from triggering FC, but most of the other classes just complained rather than learning the fundamentals of their class. 
That’s not to say spell wasn’t massively overturned, it was. 20k full counter was hilariously broken. Break enchantment hitting 10k on a 1/4s cast time was ridiculous. Disrupting stab being an instant cast stun with 5k damage was dumb af. 

However, the core concept of spell breaker was not broken as it still (mostly) kept a direct association between cast time and impact. 

So to an extent you are right, it’s the other classes. However, they are broken in a nearly unfixable way, so this argument is a useless one imo, as it almost certainly will not be fixed.

So to fix the disparity, returning the sustain and damage warrior once had (especially the trait based sustain) would offset the difference in utility-derived advantages that classes presently rely on. Warrior relies on basically raw numbers, and I don’t think that’s the worst thing in the world tbh. Small buffs until warrior is sitting in a place where higher skill warriors can compete evenly with, for example, top tier side nodes without requiring you to out skill them would be nice. Warrior already has a large skill variation to it, so small tweaks should be able to achieve the desired result atm. Whether or not that happens is another issue entirely. 

Just my thoughts though. I’m not particularly good at deciding balance, so I may be way off 🙂 

Edited January 24, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[Puck.3697]

i think a large amount of the problem is... a handful of proffessions are Outclassing every other proffession.

I mean in SPVP, Warrior fulfills a Sidenode role. however in current climate due to thief, Rev and Engi People arent running side noders anymore, but this Damages More then just warrior. Weaver, Spellbreaker, Staff Mirage and Core Ranger are all Outclassed by this current problem.

The only further difficulty of Spellbreaker and Staff Mirage would be is Thief directly counters you aswell to layer ontop.

We also have Proffessions running around who can multi-role with 1 build. Holosmith, Renegade, Core Necromancer and More can Side node and be large value in Teamfights.

and while Elementalist has a Support option with tempest to get into the teamfight, Warrior simply does not. its builds are all primarily Sidenoder roles. so with the role becoming obselete you see a Decline in Everything thats strong in that role.

When was the last time we saw Mesmers, Elementalists, Rangers and Warriors commonly in Monthly AT?. When do we see the big teams ever run comps involving these options?.. its Rare very rare, the problem isnt with every other proffession and Sure if we didnt have thief. and if holo and Revenant werent so dominant currently. or core necro. there would be a new tier list.

but i think u'd find the Disparity between these choices arent Near as large as it is between All those proffessions to these choices.

[felix.2386]

is this 2020? i thought this discussion is long over

[Obtena.7952]

I don't think these views are very accurate and must be re-aligned with how Anet views the class. If you look at a class from simple terms, then of course you won't see things that distinguish them. I don't think it makes sense to look at the other classes to make conclusions about warriors ... just because I don't believe that's how Anet looks at warrior either. 

Don't forget the goal here for the especs; it's to provide different playing experiences/styles, not necessarily fill different roles. Honestly, no matter how bad or good one thinks Warrior and it's especs are or how useful or not those specs are in the game, they certainly do provide different styles to play with. 

Personally, I think the biggest problem Anet has with warrior is that it can't do much, because of the low number of actions it has access to (the lowest in the game) ... which means we get stuck with lots of low grade effects that are likely passively procc'ed. Gunsaber looks like a departure from that ... but still within the theme of the spec, it's limited. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

50 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

don't think these views are very accurate and must be re-aligned with how Anet views the class. If you look at a class from simple terms, then of course you won't see things that distinguish them. I don't think it makes sense to look at the other classes to make conclusions about warriors ... just because I don't believe that's how Anet looks at warrior either. 

we know anets view on the proffession. we oftenly Meme on what they said. However forums are a Resource for players to complain when then disagree and should be utilised to the upmost effect.

Power of Word is Strong, If negativity and hatred towards the game Increases it'll offput more and more players getting into the game, If the Players rate of quit is faster then the Players who join, the game begins to tank, leaving the company in a place where they directly do what the playerbase Wants or they're game Flunks.

If u have a Dissaprovement of whats going on, a Disagreement in how anet are doing things or overall disagree with their capability to balance and design thus should be the route your going for. Screeching on every platform Every resource every chat, On Reddit, on Twitter, on the games Tweets, youtube videos you should be Raining as much negativity On this game as Humanly Possible.

All things that cant meet the demand must die.

Blizzards community managed this! Why cant Anets,

Players boycots continous negativity, streamers quitting, Players walknig away, Active engagement and More Resulted in:

Blizzard being bought by a New company with new Goals.

The Early closure of a Expansion.

The Removal of Being stuck to one option.

Return of Mage tower.

and Multitudes More of what was Demanded from the start

Its Time we bring that leve lof uprise here.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

we know anets view on the proffession. we oftenly Meme on what they said. However forums are a Resource for players to complain when then disagree and should be utilised to the upmost effect.

Power of Word is Strong, If negativity and hatred towards the game Increases it'll offput more and more players getting into the game, If the Players rate of quit is faster then the Players who join, the game begins to tank, leaving the company in a place where they directly do what the playerbase Wants or they're game Flunks.

If u have a Dissaprovement of whats going on, a Disagreement in how anet are doing things or overall disagree with their capability to balance and design thus should be the route your going for. Screeching on every platform Every resource every chat, On Reddit, on Twitter, on the games Tweets, youtube videos you should be Raining as much negativity On this game as Humanly Possible.

All things that cant meet the demand must die.

I'm not going to argue with this ... because it's not relevant to the discussion. The especs exist for flavour and they very much do that for warrior. Whether someone likes them or not, for whatever reason, does not change this, nor likely affect why or how Anet creates and implements those especs. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not going to argue with this ... because it's not relevant to the discussion. The especs exist for flavour and they very much do that for warrior. 

flavor?.. im sorry i only know warriors for One Banners.

Banner slave or GTFO meta has been among us for a long time. Throwing chocolate Sauce on vanilla icecream Doesnt change the flavor of the icecream. not even teapot attempts to defend Warriors Lack of Options and Diversity. and hes One who'll even defend elementalist against its community.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

flavor?.. im sorry i only know warriors for One Banners.

 

Well, that says more about how you choose to play than Warrior design unfortunately. You're going to argue this thread is about balancing problems ... it's not. It's about perception of espec gameplay differences. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, that says more about how you choose to play than Warrior design unfortunately. 

no that shows i'll boot a warrior for playing a other specc Lol, i dont play warrior.

Playing against Meta = Making ur life harder, why would i do that, Someone elses fun isnt a Impact on me. Slower Kills are a direct impact on fun however.

Heres the fact, my message is VERY RELEVANT and Almost agrees with you.

im Stating:

Anet will balance this game as they see fit, Design especcs as they see fit. its on the player to take a look at that product and Decide weather they are going to 1) Agree or 2) Disagree.

if a Player does not like what its being given for his/her investment. the Correct choice is to Quit the game become negative of the game. and Review the game Negatively and Spread the Word of Power to express exactly why they are quitting the game to provide Other people a Chance to review the game based on other players experiences before Making the same investment.

this Exactly here. is the Only correct answer to give a Player whos unhappy with the game.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

no that shows i'll boot a warrior for playing a other specc Lol, i dont play warrior.

OK .. still ... that's just a limitation based on how you choose to play. It's not relevant to warrior design. What is meta or not has nothing to do with this thread. It has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I have no idea why you are making this an argument about meta with me. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK .. again ... that's just a limitation based on how you choose to play. It's not relevant to warrior design. 

you are correct.

how i interact with the game isnt Anets responsibility.

Its My responsibility as a human. to spread my Opinons on the current meta and How anet handle content, Balance and Design however as apart of a human Race. its not my Right to Demand Change. or to tell Anet they are wrong, however People alike me. who play the game with the same values as Me. may find Value in what i state.

As Anet stated.

they want our feedback. im giving them my feedback, they did not state i had to "paint the game with a Rose tint" or only submit feedback that agrees with their views.

they asked me for feedback on what i think of the direction the games going from my point of view, thats what feedback is. its on anet if they disregard that infromation or not, but its good for other players to see.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

you are correct.

how i interact with the game isnt Anets responsibility.

Its My responsibility as a human. to spread my Opinons on the current meta and How anet handle content, Balance and Design however as apart of a human Race. its not my Right to Demand Change. or to tell Anet they are wrong, however People alike me. who play the game with the same values as Me. may find Value in what i state.

So why do you feel the need to argue with me about any of this? My post has nothing to do with any of these things. I don't have a problem with you stating your opinion ... but you do seem to have a problem with me stating mine. 

Again, my point is about the fact that warrior especs have very different feels to how they play ... which is the stated goal of those specs existing by Anet. That has nothing to do with meta. Why are you replying to me with these meta arguments?

Edited January 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So why do you feel the need to argue with me about any of this? My post has nothing to do with any of these things. I don't have a problem with you stating your opinion ... but you do seem to have a problem with me stating mine. 

Because:

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't think these views are very accurate and must be re-aligned with how Anet views the class. If you look at a class from simple terms, then of course you won't see things that distinguish them. I don't think it makes sense to look at the other classes to make conclusions about warriors ... just because I don't believe that's how Anet looks at warrior either. 

this.

No one needs to re-align their views with how anet views the class. it isnt our Job, to appreciate what Anet think Warriors should be. its our job to express our Opinons on how Anet view the class. it is NEVER on the player to View proffessions in the companies Eyes.

If i dont like blueberrys. i dont just buy them to value the farmers hardwork. At no point should u be considered the opinons on the Producers in ur critic.

What Doesnt appeal to enough people Dies. and its our job to be honest and judge if the game is Moving in a direction WE Agree with, If its failing that, the only correct advice is to tell the player to simply Review the game badly from their personal opinon ina  truthful manner and quit the game. Unless the company are expressing a Want to change the direction in a fashion that the player would be happier with.

things Dont improve or happen. if you dont Speak out and React.

you either like it. Or you dont.

Super black and White. no need for grey areas.

No Likey no Lighty. Dont buiy the product, tell people the games Bad Explain why u hate it and move to a game better suited the gameplay you desire.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Because:

this.

No one needs to re-align their views with how anet views the class.

Well, depends how wrong people continue to want to be in how they interpret the game. The fact is that especs don't exist to 'fix problems' or 'be meta'. They exist to give different ways to play the class ... and they most certainly do that on Warrior. 

OP thinks Anet need to revitalize 'weapon master'. Not sure that's actually necessary to ensure Anet accomplish especs giving people different ways to play the class. Somehow you think meta is related to that ... it's not. If anything, I think if there is any expectation that Warriors are the 'weapon masters' ... it's a very abstract sort of marketing lingo ... because it's unnecessarily limiting. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, depends how wrong people want to continue to be in how they interpret the game. The fact is that especs don't exist to 'fix problems' or 'be meta'. They exist to give different ways to play the class ... and they most certainly do that on Warrior. 

OP thinks Anet need to revitalize 'weapon master'. Not sure that's actually necessary to ensure they accomplish especs giving people different ways to play the class. Somehow you think meta is related to that ... it's not. 

But anet arent consistent here. because they've several times over used Especcs to fix Problems and Be meta. when the Especc is just a Direct upgrade to core its doing exactly this.

For example.

Daredevil is Thief+ it adds a ton of things which make thief just Stronger.

Anet have many many times Introduced a New Elite specc which effectively fixs problems, then Anet nerf Core proffession options to Adjust the New Elite. which creates a Disparity between options.

and onto "different ways to play the proffession"

is Spectre not a Complete change in How Thief Plays?

Is Firebrand not a Complete change to how guardian plays?

they've Multiple times over given proffessions New Roles with new Elites.

Everytime. a Elite gets given boon access it didnt have before, its effectively added Another role to the proffession.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

But anet arent consistent here. because they've several times over used Especcs to fix Problems and Be meta. when the Especc is just a Direct upgrade to core its doing exactly this.

For example.

Daredevil is Thief+ it adds a ton of things which make thief just Stronger.

Anet have many many times Introduced a New Elite specc which effectively fixs problems, then Anet nerf Core proffession options to Adjust the New Elite. which creates a Disparity between options.

 

Well, they are only inconsistent if you assume that's why they are creating those specs in the first place. Again, the stated reason for especs is for flavour ... and on Warrior, the especs do that. If you want to believe that in SOME cases, specs resulted in problems fixed and being meta, that's simple an inference you are making if you apply that generally. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, they are only inconsistent if you assume that's why they are creating those specs. Again, the stated reason for especs is for flavour ... and on Warrior, the especs do that. If you want to believe that in SOME cases, specs resulted in problems fixed and them being meta, that's an inference you are making. 

imma state

they gave Mirage alacrity because they wanted Mirage to have alacrity.

and in doing so they gave Mirage a New Role.

Same with every other boon they give proffessions, they dont give Harbinger quickness because they dont Want harbinger to bring Quickness. but the Pure existance of Quickness in its build has Entirely given it a New Role.

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

imma state

they gave Mirage alacrity because they wanted Mirage to have alacrity.

and in doing so they gave Mirage a New Role.

Same with every other boon they give proffessions, they dont give Harbinger quickness because they dont Want harbinger to bring Quickness. but the Pure existance of Quickness in its build has Entirely given it a New Role.

OK ... but that's got nothing to do with my point.  If an espec results in being meta or fixed problems, that's coincidental ... because that isn't a generally applicable result. 

What is INTENDED is that especs give flavour and for warrior, that's very noticeable. Therefore, whatever Anet is doing for 'identity'  on warrior ... they are getting it right.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[JTGuevara.9018]

3 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

The problem really came in POF, it wasn’t very dramatic in HOT, as most of the classes were still animation-heavy with impact scaling with animation. I-frame uptime was lower, damage was more balanced, and boon spam was dramatically less. PoF is really where all of that was added en-masse.

With the addition of spam-driven gameplay mechanics, spellbreakers mechanics were maximized (full counter punished out-of-control spamming). With its high damage, spell was a good counter to literally everyone who couldn’t time skills properly. 
 

However, the increased TTK and de-emphasis on core gameplay mechanics (timing dodges and blocks) decreased player skill dramatically, causing them to believe spell breaker was the problem instead of the degradation of their ability to properly time skill use.

Some classes had legitimate gripes (Mesmer and guardian) as they had no recourse for keeping their class mechanics from triggering FC, but most of the other classes just complained rather than learning the fundamentals of their class. 
That’s not to say spell wasn’t massively overturned, it was. 20k full counter was hilariously broken. Break enchantment hitting 10k on a 1/4s cast time was ridiculous. Disrupting stab being an instant cast stun with 5k damage was dumb af. 

However, the core concept of spell breaker was not broken as it still (mostly) kept a direct association between cast time and impact. 

So to an extent you are right, it’s the other classes. However, they are broken in a nearly unfixable way, so this argument is a useless one imo, as it almost certainly will not be fixed.

So to fix the disparity, returning the sustain and damage warrior once had (especially the trait based sustain) would offset the difference in utility-derived advantages that classes presently rely on. Warrior relies on basically raw numbers, and I don’t think that’s the worst thing in the world tbh. Small buffs until warrior is sitting in a place where higher skill warriors can compete evenly with, for example, top tier side nodes without requiring you to out skill them would be nice. Warrior already has a large skill variation to it, so small tweaks should be able to achieve the desired result atm. Whether or not that happens is another issue entirely. 

Just my thoughts though. I’m not particularly good at deciding balance, so I may be way off 🙂 

 Yes, the spam-driven mechanics are precisely the powercreep that I'm talking about. And yes, you're right, spellbreaker was the warrior staple spec of recent times that punished spam-centric builds and kept them in line. However spellbreaker itself is a CC spam spec. It's still part of the powercreep problem. Still, this situation was ok for us for a while. We didn't complain. However, the 2020 nerf patch hit warrior the hardest when it obliterated CC damage, so our staple spellbreaker CC build got shalacked. So with berserker spec gutted, CC spellbreaker gutted, warrior damage gutted, what is warrior left with?...exactly. Yeah, I'm sorry, this is NOT a useless argument. If berserker spec can be reworked....guess what...so can the others.

[Puck.3697]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... but that's got nothing to do with my point.  

but it does.

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, they are only inconsistent if you assume that's why they are creating those specs. Again, the stated reason for especs is for flavour ... and on Warrior,

to this part.

you have to reliese. that boons are Roles, fulfilling boons are Roles. if you are a Quickness Scrapper, thats ur Role. Scrapper getting Quickness ADDED that role to you as a Option to play.

The same as if they gave Bladesworn a Quickness build they would give Warriors a Entirely new Role in that single change.

I think your mistaking the level of "new role" im talking.

I consider the fact firebrand got Quickness as a New Role.

the fact Mechanists going to bring alacrity gave Engineer a new Role.

what im stating is. Warrior is one of the few proffessions to NOT be given a New role via Added some boon to the proffession for a New role for it to fill. Warriors Raid DPS has always been Banners. they've never gotten a New boon.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

but it does.

to this part.

you have to reliese. that boons are Roles, fulfilling boons are Roles. if you are a Quickness Scrapper, thats ur Role. Scrapper getting Quickness ADDED that role to you as a Option to play.

The same as if they gave Bladesworn a Quickness build they would give Warriors a Entirely new Role in that single change.

I think your mistaking the level of "new role" im talking.

I consider the fact firebrand got Quickness as a New Role.

the fact Mechanists going to bring alacrity gave Engineer a new Role.

I'm not mistaking role at all ... it's just not relevant to the thing you want to argue with me about. I don't care about roles on especs nor do I care about boons ... nothing I said was specific to either of those things.

I care about how they play and so does Anet because that's their stated reason for why they make them. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[JTGuevara.9018]

13 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, depends how wrong people continue to want to be in how they interpret the game. The fact is that especs don't exist to 'fix problems' or 'be meta'. They exist to give different ways to play the class ... and they most certainly do that on Warrior. 

OP thinks Anet need to revitalize 'weapon master'. Not sure that's actually necessary to ensure Anet accomplish especs giving people different ways to play the class. Somehow you think meta is related to that ... it's not. If anything, I think if there is any expectation that Warriors are the 'weapon masters' ... it's a very abstract sort of marketing lingo ... because it's unnecessarily limiting. 

That is the company slogan. There is a clear difference between the slogan and the actual results of a product. E-specs were marketed as addons to professions that ended up being UPGRADES.

[Puck.3697]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not mistaking role at all ... it's just not relevant to the thing you want to argue with me about. I don't care about roles on especs ... I care about how they play and so does Anet because that's their stated reason for why they make them. 

and thats fine.

but u cant say We are wrong to state Warriors Unlike other proffessions didnt recieve the same level of power creep through its Elite speccs and the fact Anet have been fine to hand them out to other proffessions is a Inconsistency to how they treat warriors.

im sorry.. i just lack this Vision of how warriors play so diferent.

If anything i think warriors are one of the worst options if ur looking for Different playstyles.

Elementalist

got Tempest - HUGE Defensive applications. Huge Healing. Became More Melee compared to its Staff cousin in core.

Got Weaver - Pure DPS. a 180 on tempests design. with Additional Complexity and New Mechanics that stand out on their own Merit.

Necromancer got

Reaper - a huge Power DPS, something necromancer never had. a Massive playstyle change to becoming a melee Specc.

Scourge - Introduction of barrier.. Compl;etely changing Life forces mechanic Removing the second HP Bar.

Im sorry

but Berserker was hated on entry. it had One of the largest negative reactions going by streamers long - term warrior mains forums and More. It introduced the ability to Press F1 more then Once per Cooldown.. BIIIIG CHANGE OF PLAYSTYLE BOYS.

Spellbreaker. took Core warrior cut its Bar in half and handed it a block. BIIIIIG CHANGE OF PLAYSTYLES BOYSSS.

Not.

Warriors Playstyle Did NOT change throughout its Elite additions. It NEVER became different to any level worth Crediting.

 

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, JTGuevara.9018 said:

That is the company slogan. There is a clear difference between the slogan and the actual results of a product. E-specs were marketed as addons to professions that ended up being UPGRADES.

I get you are trying to argue Warrior is in a bad place ... but it simply doesn't make sense to do it from the POV that they aren't true to the 'theme' or in relation to other classes. 

I don't disagree ... Warrior is a laggard ... but I don't think it's because of 'balance'. I believe it's because it simply doesn't have the bandwidth to act and get effects with intent. Simply too many procc'ed effects