Let's be honest, other professions are the problem...

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Daddy.8125 said:

and thats fine.

but u cant say We are wrong to state Warriors Unlike other proffessions didnt recieve the same level of power creep

 

Great ... because I NEVER said that in the first place ... 🤷‍♂️

[Puck.3697]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Great ... because I NEVER said that in the first place .

but ur trying to justify this based on the concept "anet drove for theme". yet the theme of Warrior litterally never changed.

Modifying the way its F1 Works isnt a "Change of playstyle" unless its to the same degreee Harbinger or Scourge brought to Necromancer.

Anet failed both aspects of this Proffession. it Fell behind others ontop of that it delievered Barely anything unique or Worth creditting as a "new option or playstyle".

Bladesworn is the first time in 3 elites that the Actual playstyle of Warrior will see anything significant as a Option..

Edited January 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Daddy.8125 said:

but ur trying to justify this based on the concept "anet drove for theme". yet the theme of Warrior litterally never changed.

 

No i never said that ... I said that warrior especs give different feel for how they play ... and that makes sense because that's the stated intent of why they exist. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

No i never said that ... I said that especs give different feel for how they play ... and that makes sense because that's the stated intent of why they exist. 

but in warriors case they didnt.

This isnt a Meta thing either. Otherwise i wouldnt Applaud Elementalists Elites Design which is Veryt much not considered meta in every game mode, tempest and weaver broguht new feels of how they play.

Berserker and Spellbreaker never recieved enough of a change to bring a New Feel to how they play. they all Generate a Bar and Press F1 with a Slightly modified F1 tool based on the elite they use.

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Daddy.8125 said:

but in warriors case they didnt.

Sure they do ... you just don't think so because you only see 'One Banner' warriors ,... but yeah, tell me again this isn't a 'meta' thing for you again.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[JTGuevara.9018]

10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I get you are trying to argue Warrior is in a bad place ... but it simply doesn't make sense to do it from the POV that they aren't true to the 'theme' or in relation to other classes. 

I don't disagree ... Warrior is a laggard ... but I don't think it's because of 'balance'. I believe it's because it simply doesn't have the bandwidth to act and get effects with intent. Simply too many procc'ed effects

 

So it's unbalanced! You even say it yourself, "laggard".

[Puck.3697]

12 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure they do ... you just don't think so because you only see 'One Banner' warriors. 

even their Pure DPS Variants of Berserker play alike core.

Again.

Modifying a F1 Ability doesnt create a New playstyle. lets look at what berserker Had for warriors.

F1 got changed to Berserk, allowing their F1 Abilities to be Used Repeatively rather then going onto a CD between uses.

thats the Only playstyle change berserker actually got.

this got launched at the same time as

Daredevil, which brought the first 3 Dodge option into the game. With ways to physically change the way you Dodge, a 2handed Weapon at a time thief had NEVER had a 2handed weapon usuable prior on land, Mug became a physical Teleport and even a Opening to Brawler type Thief builds.

Chronomancer which at its Launch was HUGE Difference to core. Bringing New Shatters, Time based Abilitys through shield with defensive options. They gained the ability to tank, they brought a NEW BUFF TO T HE GAME THAT WAS SELF ONLY. alacrity. Alacrity was unique to Chronomancer entirely. and made the proffession one of the fastest APMS avaliable At the time.

Tempest. Which Instead of Swapping attunements moved in a way or Staying in attunements to use the brand new Overload Mechanic. ontop of this got one of the strongest Elite skills avaliable in a defensive fashion. Gave the proffession a Teamfight role in SPVP while it was effectively bound to being a bunker prior.

Dragonhunter, giving the Proffession its FIrst 1200-1500 Range Weapon, Giving the proffession Trapper rune gameplay and opened the doors to more offensive orintated builds.

Reaper, Gave Necros its Strongest PvE Build at the time. entirely focused on giving Necro a Power based DPS Option, ontop of this became a HUGE Success in Soloing content and Unorganised groups as Could fill its own boon needs. ontop of this Delievered a Melee Playstyle compared to its Ranged condi counterpart.

Druid, Gave Rangers a less Pet orinated build. where the power was Delievered Away from the pet and into the player, it offered it a New bunker build from its Berserker gameplay of the past, ontop of this Gave rangers a completely new playstyle as one of the first support options in the game.

Comparitively. Berserker got nothing lol, these other proffessions got Evolution things that simply did not exist prior them coming into the game. New boons that were unique to the proffession which changed the pace of Gameplay entirely, Expansion to see these playstyles come through in every corner of the game.

Bersderker got a new F1 Modifier. that instead of pressing F1 Once per 10, you now pressed it 5 times per 10.

Each of these proffessions got a Brand new aesthetic to to their themes for exampleChrono was Time based and had Time based aesthetic unlike Core which seperated their animations and feel completely.

Berserker just didnt get this Same level of conceptual Change. Nor did spellbreaker. they got additions to their F1 mechanic and pushed out the door.

Berserker Did not fundamentally change the Animational Looks, Ability usuage, Variance in kit or any Direct evolution upon its core counterpart.

It remained a Melee Character, that Rinse and Repeated building and Spending Charge in the Same role in every game mode.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[JTGuevara.9018]

11 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

even their Pure DPS Variants of Berserker play alike core.

Again.

Modifying a F1 Ability doesnt create a New playstyle. lets look at what berserker Had for warriors.

F1 got changed to Berserk, allowing their F1 Abilities to be Used Repeatively rather then going onto a CD between uses.

thats the Only playstyle change berserker actually got.

this got launched at the same time as

Daredevil, which brought the first 3 Dodge option into the game. With ways to physically change the way you Dodge, a 2handed Weapon at a time thief had NEVER had a 2handed weapon usuable prior on land, Mug became a physical Teleport and even a Opening to Brawler type Thief builds.

Chronomancer which at its Launch was HUGE Difference to core. Bringing New Shatters, Time based Abilitys through shield with defensive options. They gained the ability to tank, they brought a NEW BUFF TO T HE GAME THAT WAS SELF ONLY. alacrity. Alacrity was unique to Chronomancer entirely. and made the proffession one of the fastest APMS avaliable At the time.

Tempest. Which Instead of Swapping attunements moved in a way or Staying in attunements to use the brand new Overload Mechanic. ontop of this got one of the strongest Elite skills avaliable in a defensive fashion. Gave the proffession a Teamfight role in SPVP while it was effectively bound to being a bunker prior.

Dragonhunter, giving the Proffession its FIrst 1200-1500 Range Weapon, Giving the proffession Trapper rune gameplay and opened the doors to more offensive orintated builds.

Reaper, Gave Necros its Strongest PvE Build at the time. entirely focused on giving Necro a Power based DPS Option, ontop of this became a HUGE Success in Soloing content and Unorganised groups as Could fill its own boon needs. ontop of this Delievered a Melee Playstyle compared to its Ranged condi counterpart.

Druid, Gave Rangers a less Pet orinated build. where the power was Delievered Away from the pet and into the player, it offered it a New bunker build from its Berserker gameplay of the past, ontop of this Gave rangers a completely new playstyle as one of the first support options in the game.

Comparitively. Berserker got nothing lol, these other proffessions got Evolution things that simply did not exist prior them coming into the game. New boons that were unique to the proffession which changed the pace of Gameplay entirely, Expansion to see these playstyles come through in every corner of the game.

Bersderker got a new F1 Modifier. that instead of pressing F1 Once per 10, you now pressed it 5 times per 10.

Each of these proffessions got a Brand new aesthetic to to their themes for exampleChrono was Time based and had Time based aesthetic unlike Core which seperated their animations and feel completely.

Berserker just didnt get this Same level of conceptual Change. Nor did spellbreaker. they got additions to their F1 mechanic and pushed out the door.

Berserker Did not fundamentally change the Animational Looks, Ability usuage, Variance in kit or any Direct evolution upon its core counterpart.

It remained a Melee Character, that Rinse and Repeated building and Spending Charge in the Same role in every game mode.

And this, folks, solidifies my argument. Courtesy of Daddy.1825. Pack it in folks. Warrior never had any substantial changes. EoD is the first time warrior is even remotely addressed, although from the looks of bladesworn, it is doomed to be clunky as you-know-what.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

So it's unbalanced! You even say it yourself, "laggard".

Sure ... but my point is that this isn't primarily a result of especs and design ... it's the fundamental lack of actions a Warrior has access to. Warrior has ALWAYS lagged ... it's just way more obvious now because of how the game evolved. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

even their Pure DPS Variants of Berserker play alike core.

 

Depends on how you choose to play it ... and I am not even surprised that someone that sees every warrior spec as a 'one banner' who admits they don't even play warrior would think that way.

So no, the warrior especs are most definitely different feels playing warrior.  Again, If you look at a class from simple terms, then of course you won't see things that distinguish them. I mean, you DID just admit you don't even play warrior ... but you are going to tell me how  playing Berserker is not different than core ... good story bro. 👍

Edited January 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Depends on how you choose to play it ... and I am not even surprised that someone that sees every warrior spec as a 'one banner' who admits they don't even play warrior would think that way.

So no, the warrior especs are most definitely different feels playing warrior.  Again, If you look at a class from simple terms, then of course you won't see things that distinguish them. I mean, you DID just admit you don't even play warrior ... but you are going to tell me how  playing Berserker is not different than core ... good story bro

Said I don't play one, not that I've never played one. I have one levelled up and it's done story mode of the game lol. 

I think the vast majority of the playerbase have one of every proffession. 

I purely disagree, and by the looks of it I'm not alone here and alot of people do agree with my point of view. Over 90% of this proffession forum is complete negativity on the proffession, the proffessions has drastically low play rate by current statistics, and considered one of the weakest proffessions in spvp. 

It's DPS as a pure DPS is sub optimal comparitively to other objects while bringing less then several options. 

WArriors rotation hasn't changed in multitudes of years unlike most options available currently 

And ofcourse you do lol, that's their role in team based PvE content lmfao, you simply just enjoy to defend anet. 

Berserkers traits are entirely focused on Condi / power damage options the fact you can try argue they're so different is laughable and I think you would be pushed for find another player who would agree with your views. 

Name one change excluding F1 mechanics that berserker got. And before you say it, taking increased damage during enrage does no count. 

When a specc is just a rehash of another pure DPS it's hard to push individuality into. Just full stop. And berserker did this. 

Again becoming a F1 spam Machine isn't distinctive play, and I'm never gonna put a F1 change on par with something like chronomancer which litterally changed the entire aesthetical and thematical view of their entire proffession. 

Defending Anet correctly is fine. But trying to push this narrative is just gonna cause new players to play this proffession and get angry at it for the same reasons. 

My brother was a warrior main he wouldn't raid, participate in content and mainly afk'd events. I persuaded him to eventually try engineer he now does all the content he refused to do for the last 6 months without hesitation 

And my brother has always been a warrior lover in every mmorpg. This games the first game where playing a warrior made him want to quit the game. 

You clearly don't remember the absolute sh*tshow that went down on berserkers launch. People were angry and top warrior streamers slowly dropped out the game who mained this proffession. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Hotride.2187]

6 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Personally, I think the biggest problem Anet has with warrior is that it can't do much, because of the low number of actions it has access to (the lowest in the game) ... which means we get stuck with lots of low grade effects that are likely passively procc'ed. Gunsaber looks like a departure from that ... but still within the theme of the spec, it's limited. 

Its not like support guard (or guard in general) uses 50 more skills in spvp. Thief and ranger have only a few more actions, yet e.g. in wvw roaming they perform way better. Signet mesmer is not much different (not that mesmer is in a good state either). A lot of cele revs don't even leave shortbow; I see more and more FT engis that just dome and spam FT (again wvw). You have to play well against all of those builds on war, to win, regardless of how low effort the opponents build is.

You are correct, warrior has less actions available, but its not dramatically less compared to not a few other builds. Its that even those few actions are partially (or fully) dysfunctional. Paired with damage that only works if your target has no protection/stab and sustain that comes from evades...

If you give warrior more skills, you still have the problem that the base of warrior is not great.

[Puck.3697]

24 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

You are correct, warrior has less actions available, but its not dramatically less compared to not a few other builds. Its that even those few actions are partially (or fully) dysfunctional. Paired with damage that only works if your target has no protection/stab and sustain that comes from evades

I would say this is a result of mainly anets decisions. 

The fact that berserker builds don't really utilise weapon swap to a great depth and raid builds generally just run Axe+axe / mace+mace and only use mace for break bars kinda shows this. 

Anet have struggled to make either of the new elites new weapons appear that amazing comparitively to prior. Aswell as the new utilities in lots of cases lag behind core ones. 

Primarily because they stripped alot of what was great about warrior. 

- Damage out of its CC combos.

- strapped banners to every build. 

- made the proffession squishy even tho it's a heavy armour option. 

- created no variety in how it's built. 

If Anet overhauled some it's weapon options and smartly buffed some it's kits so it'd start using weapon swap to a larger deal the APM would naturally rise. 

Also if they made banners a core mechanic with F2 F3 and F4 instead of base like utility. They could seperate the designs of speccs more. 

And they made spellbreaker a PvP only option. If im correct core ele does more DPS in PvE then spellbreaker which ment once again from a. PvE pov things once again stayed identical for another expansion. .

Warriors just never got what other proffessions did realistically. 

Guardians got tomes which gave em weapon swap + 3 new skill bars. 

Chronomancer got alacrity to speed up their APM massively. 

Elementalist got attunement locks cut in half with dual abilities and split elements. 

Necromancers got added F abilities which can be used over the top of their abilities. 

Thief got a additional dodge stacked ontop of them + base line teleports and more. 

Ranger got a F5 3rd ability bar, and later on got to swap out it's pet for more buttons. 

Engineers got holoforge adding a additional bar of abilities. 

Warriors never got that expansion which ever built up it's ability usuage. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Grand Marshal.4098]

No EoD for me. That's how I can show my dissapointment.

 

Imagine trying to play Longbow warrior with some ranged condi vs a Guard, Scrapper, Druid comp in wvw btw.

 

Talk about a bruh moment.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I think there should be an F2 and F3 added to Core. Especs lose these new mechanic skills. F1 bursts remain as they are. F2 and F3 will become bursts related to OH weapon and a burst mixed bwtween the two weapons (think dual attacks). For 2H weapons they are just two more bursts. F2 and F3 consume all bars of adrenaline on use.

All F3's are OH focused.

Warhorn: Should become an AoE weakness and slow (2s each per bar of adrenaline) and a 1/4s daze. 600 range. WH used to have weakness, it'd be nice to have back.

Shield: PBAoE ground slam that launches foes a distance of 0. Range of 240. Shield needs AoE to it. This does it.

Sword: Gets a 3/4s evade that strikes the foe once for moderate power damage and 2/4/6 stacks of bleeding for 6s. Foes that are already bleeding are also poisoned with 2/4/6 stacks for 6s. OH sword needs to compete with Torch for condi, and it core needs more cover condis, so this helps with both.

Mace: Leap toward target foe and bash them quickly. Deals high damage on a 1/2s cast leap. Damage is doubled versus a CC'd foe (2/4 Pve, 1.5/3.0 WvW/PvP). Transfer 1/2/3 conditions you are suffering from based on adrenaline spent. Mace overall needs more damage, this leans into the crushing blow theme even more. The Condition clearing is for some extra sustain since it has to compete with Shield as far as sustain goes.

Axe: Leap with a 3/4s evade. Cleaves, foes struck are crippled. Already crippled foes are weakened for 4s. Gain 1/3/5 stacks of might for 6s per bar of adrenaline spent. Attack should be moderate in power (~1.5 PvW, ~1.0 PvP/WvW).

I'm not going to go into Hammer, GS, LB, or Rifle right now for their F3's, but they should all cover what each weapon lacks right now.

Hammer like mace needs a damage based F3.
GS needs a heavy hitting cleave that does more power against targets ABOVE 50% HP. Have it grant quickness per bar of adrenaline spent.
LB could get Rain of Fire back, but scaled based on Adrenaline.
Rifle needs mobile damage, probably a single fast shot that deals more damage against vulnerable targets. Not sure what the tiered adrenaline effect would be.

I'll chime in later to expand on these when I get a break.

I realize that these would be a LOT more skills to add to just core warrior, but honestly this is what warrior should have had to begin with.

The F2's when I get to them will have a bit of sustain and mitigation built into them, they'll probably be weaker damage wise to the F1s but offer extra boons/soft condis. 


 

[The Boz.2038]

Diverting resources into mechanical features for Core that do not extend to especs is not a viable idea for ANet or Warrior at this point.

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

If you give warrior more skills, you still have the problem that the base of warrior is not great.

Well hold on ... I didn't say giving them more skills would fix the problem. I'm saying that the concept of the warrior designed around its limited skill bandwidth has resulted in this inability to effectively and competitively act/react in the game. Yes, it's true some classes with the a similar low bandwidth do better in some game modes. I believe that's coincidental and also singificantly impacted by who is playing it (I have no doubt that even in the current state, there are capable warriors in competitive modes)

I think what the OP is seeing is that this limitation becomes more obvious as we experience more class variations in the game. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Said I don't play one, not that I've never played one. I have one levelled up and it's done story mode of the game lol. 

Right ... the point being, you are making comments about warrior that require more experience than just 'doing the story mode'. Maybe you play berserker like core ... but that talks more about how you play than how the spec is designed and when played right, works much different than core. 

So again, back to the point ... warrior especs DO add the different gameplay flavour that Anet intends. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Androx.8572]

I only play thief and this is the only thing I can say:

As a thief , we dont jump into anybody just like that.
There are factors , strategies and timings that have to fit all together to make the descision of attacking somebody
As a thief, we work it that way because most of us are squishy so mistakes are not very allowed.

As a warrior , you need to learn to choose your fights
Because regardless of the class you play, THINKING BEFOREHAND would be wise.
If you plan and choose well , due to factors you have around 88% chance of winning.

If you keep doing what you do, you will get the same result.
Be smart my friend.
Avoid danger
Hit whenever it wise.
Best Regards.

 

[Tescao.3042]

Perhaps when the WB becomes more relevant, the warrior capabilities will also become more relevant. As they say here spam is a problem, sustain and support(another spam version) against spam is also a problem. Warrior has a lot of Melee attacks with a range of 130 and it is very hard for him in such a spam situations. Just an opinion, I do not claim to be the truth.

Edited January 25, 2022 by DomHemingway.8436

[Aeolus.3615]

 Warrior lacks the word "warrior" in it, most time feel smore like a coliseum pit figthers (duelist)class than a warrior..

TDLR.. "play reaper nothing much is needed imo", thats what i tend to say.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Psycoprophet.8107]

1 hour ago, Androx.8572 said:

I only play thief and this is the only thing I can say:

As a thief , we dont jump into anybody just like that.
There are factors , strategies and timings that have to fit all together to make the descision of attacking somebody
As a thief, we work it that way because most of us are squishy so mistakes are not very allowed.

As a warrior , you need to learn to choose your fights
Because regardless of the class you play, THINKING BEFOREHAND would be wise.
If you plan and choose well , due to factors you have around 88% chance of winning.

If you keep doing what you do, you will get the same result.
Be smart my friend.
Avoid danger
Hit whenever it wise.
Best Regards.

 

I see what ur saying but another way to look at it is players don't chose warrior to play it like a rogue.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Diverting resources into mechanical features for Core that do not extend to especs is not a viable idea for ANet or Warrior at this point.

Depends on what they also do to Berserker and Spellbreaker. Those need updates and buffs as well, but that doesn't mean that core can't be added onto.

[The Boz.2038]

So, even more resources? And they're split, instead of doing things that solve two problems? 

And they're content work, and not just balance slides?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

14 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Depends on how you choose to play it ... and I am not even surprised that someone that sees every warrior spec as a 'one banner' who admits they don't even play warrior would think that way.

So no, the warrior especs are most definitely different feels playing warrior.  Again, If you look at a class from simple terms, then of course you won't see things that distinguish them. I mean, you DID just admit you don't even play warrior ... but you are going to tell me how  playing Berserker is not different than core ... good story bro. 👍

What are you talking about?

Warrior is my main and they're ( @Daddy.8125) right. 

Playing berserker is playing handicapped core. They play exactly the same but one has its cooldowns shifted.

Playing spellbreaker is like playing core, except you get a tether to probably counter specifically thief. If you choose to take it.

Bladesworn is like playing core except they force you to take a new weapon swap and your burst skill goes a bit farther. 
 

They all have the same mobility. They all have the same weaknesses in telegraphs, blind susceptibility and clunkiness.They all have the same marginal strengths. 

The punchline is that I'd be fine with the elite specs being more or less the same if any of them besides spellbreaker worked. 

I don't know why you're pushing this idea so aggressively that warrior elite specs are markedly different or offer different ways to play. They don't. That should be obvious. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Azure The Heartless.3261