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Let's be honest, other professions are the problem...


JTGuevara.9018

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9 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

While true. Thematic choice seems limited when the game plays as if there really is only 3 proffessions. 

It may aswell only have 3 proffessions in it realistically. Over 80% of the playerbase have accepted this. I mean if we keep going this way the games gonna be played as if the other 6 don't exist. 

Ofcourse EoD may suprise us and we see a wider choice but we will see. 

 

Depends on what your criteria are as a player and the people you play with. I'm in a whole guild of people that choose from 9 classes. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Depends on what your criteria are as a player and the people you play with. I'm in a whole guild of people that choose from 9 classes. 

A proffession that doesn't require me to intentionally play the game at a handicap and make the game harder on myself both content wise and less freedom in the quantity of groups that will accept me. 

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4 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

A proffession that doesn't require me to intentionally play the game at a handicap and make the game harder on myself both content wise and less freedom in the quantity of groups that will accept me. 

Again ... if you decide to play that way. Our guild doesn't have that problem. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again ... if you decide to play that way. Our guild doesn't have that problem. 

Sadly not everyone can afford to have static raid times so alot of people get stuck in PuG enviroments which aren't so caring about you as a person. 

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17 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again ... if you decide to play that way. Our guild doesn't have that problem. 

[  ] Make changes to a class so it isn't a markedly worse pick than the other classes and so people actually enjoy using it
[x] "Just find people that don't care lol"

Edited by Azure The Heartless.3261
>Do mental gymnastics and display anecdotes X Fix the issue
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36 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

[  ] Make changes to a class so it isn't a markedly worse pick than the other classes and so people actually enjoy using it
[x] "Just find people that don't care lol"

The difference ... one you can do now and have been able to for the entire game existence. The other ... you might be waiting a LONG time. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The difference ... one you can do now and have been able to for the entire game existence. The other ... you might be waiting a LONG time. 

Absolutely right.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't be advocating for that special other one the whole time though, especially with the group that can provide that occasionally also asking us for money. 

It is not something we can reach out and fix, but we can make it visible to the people that can fix it. And if they want us to support them, they will have all of the information they need to know how they can most quickly get to that. 

Edited by Azure The Heartless.3261
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4 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Absolutely right.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't be advocating for that special other one the whole time though, especially with the group that can provide that occasionally also asking us for money. 

It is not something we can reach out and fix, but we can make it visible to the people that can fix it. And if they want us to support them, they will have all of the information they need to know how they can most quickly get to that. 

Sure. No one is saying to not advocate for changes ... just set your expectations for timing accordingly. It's as visible as it's ever been.

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1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Sadly not everyone can afford to have static raid times so alot of people get stuck in PuG enviroments which aren't so caring about you as a person. 

Still, back to the point ... what you say has truth in it. The classes are there for thematics, not roles ... if you want something specific to be meta, it's just a matter of waiting since thematic class implementation has no expectations for specific performance outputs, just like we have always seen in the game. I'm not really seeing anything in EoD that would change that unless CM Strikes somehow facilitates the need for a more diverse meta comp. 

 

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6 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Still, back to the point ... what you say has truth in it. The classes are there for thematics, not roles ... if you want something specific to be meta, it's just a matter of waiting since thematic class implementation has no expectations for specific performance outputs, just like we have always seen in the game. I'm not really seeing anything in EoD that would change that unless CM Strikes somehow facilitates the need for a more diverse meta comp. 

 

While they are for thematic reasoning, I do wish they weren't as far apart. 

Depends on what the core / current elite significant changes are tbh. Won't know til it arrives tho. 

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10 hours ago, Dromar.1027 said:

I've been maining Warrior since GW1 2005 and Anet is the problem. They listen to babies cry about warrior and the effects have been detrimental to the class ever since. Warriors should be masters of weapons and high damage dealers to begin with.

While I think the weapons master role could defintly shine abit brighter. 

I wouldn't say the issue is warriors damage, at the end of the day a good warrior can One shot a player. The issue with warrior is it just has other short fallings which keep it back. 

- thief meta wise in spvp. Because thieves have become soo strong with SA D/P builds they are so tanky they can now brawl.... Which is ludicrous. 

- warriors ability to deal with condis have never matched other options. 

- the fact sidenoders are massively pushed out the meta. 

PvE wise. 

- never grew utility wise beyond banners, they're unique but they're also all you got. They ironically do good damage as a offensive support and have some really good pure DPS potiental. But the exposed mechanic and more has just been a driving force for renegade, firebrand and scourge. 

Warriors feel heavily limited. Outside of all the balancing. (It's never gonna be perfect something will always win). I think the proffession lacks versatility. 

It DPS in a specific way, it spvps in a specific role with a specific build. It's support is one specific thing and used in 1 specific way. 

Tbh people cry on every proffession and lots of weird fixs have been implemented to multiple speccs the issue is Anet have a tendency to go waaaaaay over the top sometimes. 

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15 hours ago, Sylvia.4870 said:

The creators should have never created the other 8 professions in the fitst place- only Warrior profession remains, right? Such a simple thought.

I sense some sarcasm but ... that's not entirely as crazy as people might think. We don't have a role-based class system here ... so why would we need any more than 1 class? (and the answer is because of variation to appeal to players, not performance)

I mean, there was a point where 5 ele's were the meta for dungeons ... so it's not even just an idea. There was a game state that touched on the idea that classes are actually irrelevant from a performance POV. 

The point here is really that if Anet wanted to,they could total have foregone the idea of 'classes' altogether from a game mechanics perspective. The game mechanics do not require classes. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

sense some sarcasm but ... that's not entirely as crazy as people might think. We don't have a role-based class system here ... so why would we need any more than 1 class? (and the answer is because of variation to appeal to players, not performance

While true, it's obvious classes exist for aesthetical appeal people like different things from cast based combat, to pure melee, to hybrid and going down animations there's a mixed demand and they do fulfill that. 

And yeah every game with a class based system never gets performance equal (if you ask me if any game managed it the game would be the most boring game to exist also)

When you break balance down. To be balanced every proffession would have to do the exact same thing as the other proffession, this would create homogenisation and overall blandness with no individuality. 

however. Ironically this games imbalanced because Anet aren't keeping proffessions seperate by individuality. 

Proffessions and their elites are slowly melding into "everyone does everything" a bland proffession choice with no individuality or unique selling points. 

You can't just have guardians bring a boon. You gotta make the next 20 elites also provide the same boon. Theres no exciting cool aspect to party creation. You just stack a bunch of builds to fulfill every role. Whichever does more DPS is optimal. 

Instead of wanting that guardian for its unique boons. You just want guardian because it does higher DPS while providing the same boon. 

It's boring and soulless. Anet need to stick to the fact elites are susposed to be different twists of our proffession... Not a extension of what it offers. 

 

Edited by Daddy.8125
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1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

While true, it's obvious classes exist for aesthetical appeal people like different things from cast based combat, to pure melee, to hybrid and going down animations there's a mixed demand and they do fulfill that. 

And yeah every game with a class based system never gets performance equal (if you ask me if any game managed it the game would be the most boring game to exist also)

When you break balance down. To be balanced every proffession would have to do the exact same thing as the other proffession, this would create homogenisation and overall blandness with no individuality. 

however. Ironically this games imbalanced because Anet aren't keeping proffessions seperate by individuality. 

Proffessions and their elites are slowly melding into "everyone does everything" a bland proffession choice with no individuality or unique selling points. 

Agree until this part ... I don't think everyone does everything, though I think it's inevitable there exists lots of overlap. But that's kind of how the game is intended to work right? Ultimately, playing how you want gives  lots of choices, but ideally, within the specific classes people like to play. I predict that we only get more overlap as we get more especs ... and that's always gone to my point that especs are about flavour, not roles ... because there just isn't that much to cover. 

Quote

You can't just have guardians bring a boon. You gotta make the next 20 elites also provide the same boon. Theres no exciting cool aspect to party creation. You just stack a bunch of builds to fulfill every role. Whichever does more DPS is optimal. 

Instead of wanting that guardian for its unique boons. You just want guardian because it does higher DPS while providing the same boon. 

It's boring and soulless. Anet need to stick to the fact elites are susposed to be different twists of our proffession... Not a extension of what it offers. 

 

IMO, that's a very 'role-based' class choice decision in a very 'not role-based' class designed game. In otherwords, if you are basing your choices on things the game isn't differentiating classes around then of course it's going to feel like there is something amiss about the choices you have. 

That is what I'm talking about when I say people need to align their thinking to Anet's game concept ... classes are here as thematic choices (ESPECIALLY so in the purposefully avoided holy trinity) so if people are complaining that their classes don't give them choices based on .... not thematic things ... then the validity of that complaint is questionable. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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23 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Agree until this part ... I don't think everyone does everything, though I think it's inevitable there exists lots of overlap. But that's kind of how the game is intended to work right? Ultimately, playing how you want gives  lots of choices, but ideally, within the specific classes people like to play. I predict that we only get more overlap as we get more especs ... and that's always gone to my point that especs are about flavour, not roles ... because there just isn't that much to cover

So far but future wise it's inevitable the game will end like this. The system is slowly doing it sure but it will eventually cause this. 

Theres no reason elites need to bring overlap. 

But they've created it, remember alacrity being a chronomancer self buff mechanic? It never needed to be more. They created overlap by making it more and thus made a brand new role... We never needed roles 

23 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

IMO, that's a very 'role-based' class choice decision in a very 'not role-based' class designed game. In otherwords, if you are basing your choices on things the game isn't differentiating classes around then of course it's going to feel like there is something amiss about the choices you have

Exactly so tell Anet to stop creating roles. 

Quickness firebrand and Condi firebrand are different roles. The existence of quickness firebrand did exactly this. Make a role in a game that wasn't susposed to have a role to begin with. 

Edited by Daddy.8125
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9 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Exactly so tell Anet to stop creating roles. 

Quickness firebrand and Condi firebrand are different roles. The existence of quickness firebrand did exactly this. Make a role in a game that wasn't susposed to have a role to begin with. 

Well, that's where I think we will simply disagree ... to me, roles are artificial labels people have applied to classes to justify their ideas on how the game works or should work. Even if you want to go so far as to say that 'appliing quickness' is a role for example, the game doesn't enforce playing specific things (like quickness application) to be successful.

In otherwords, IF there exists some way to define an apply roles to classes in GW2 ... it certainly doesn't affect how you have to play the game to be successful, so it's really not that relevant to discuss how it impacts class design IMO. It's certainly not a departure from the idea that classes exists primarily for thematic reasons and doesn't contradict that as a criteria for making class choices. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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52 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, that's where I think we will simply disagree ... to me, roles are artificial labels people have applied to classes to justify their ideas on how the game works or should work. Even if you want to go so far as to say that 'appliing quickness' is a role for example, the game doesn't enforce playing specific things (like quickness application) to be successful

Roles exist because it became advantageous to gameplay to exist.. 

Quickness is one of the largest DPS increases in the game boon wise it's insanely powerful, core design wise with boons and more were simply at their best and it has gotten worse since. 

While the game doesn't enforce it, player perception is the driving force for a meta and more not the company 

In WoW having bloodlust wasn't a requirement or enforced. But player perception drove it to make the game work in that fashion

How a developer makes content and how the players engage with that content don't always align and at this point Anet have accepted that. 

The reason the game doesn't function this way yet is existing encounters are made so dumbed down that it doesn't require near the potiental of proffessions to finish. 

However with EoD bringing in difficulty sliders or as they've hinted. You may actually find it does become enforced in harder difficulties. 

 

 

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Again,  I'm just going to disagree that 'roles exist'. How you define 'roles' based on your example of applying quickness is as much a role as 'doing anything else' in GW2 ... so it's a pretty contrived, trivial and artificial construct for me. Again, Whatever you want to call these things, they do not dictate how people have to play the game to succeed, so they aren't affecting the view that classes are theme driven, not role-driven implementations.

If we get a situation where something becomes absolutely necessary to succeed doing content ... THEN we can talk about how that something could be a problem affecting class choice for players depending on how limited classes are on access to that something. We aren't there yet. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, I'm just going to disagree that 'roles exist'. How you define 'roles' based on your example of applying quickness is as much a role as 'doing anything else' in GW2 ... so it's a pretty contrived, trivial and artificial construct for me. Again, Whatever you want to call these things, they do not dictate how people have to play the game to succeed, so they aren't affecting the view that classes are theme driven, not role-driven implementations. 

If we get a situation where something becomes absolutely necessary to succeed doing content ... THEN we can talk about how that something could be a problem affecting class choice for players depending on how limited classes are on access to that something. We aren't there yet. 

But roles do exist. 

Being a DPS is a role for example. A role is the reason your brought into a group or raid. Or a fundamental you add to the team realistically. 

There are roles in everything 

In your job, in your house, in your family, in friendships. A role is a point of responsibility. 

But this is affecting class choice for players. The statistics prove this. 

Again there is statistical evidence which proves over 80% of the player population are necro guard or rev. 

There's also statistical evidence to show 87% of the entire games fractal play in the last year has consisted of quickness firebrand, alac renegade and barrier scourge. 

Again. How a company designs something and how it's community use it aren't always the same. Player perception has most defintly driven these roles existence in higher levels of PvE gameplay.

You saying your guild doesn't means nothing. You are a minority if you raid with the guild. Over 90% of PvE content is done via the pug finder and not via a guild statistically. You aren't apart of the majority when it comes to how you engage with content. 

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49 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

But roles do exist. 

Being a DPS is a role for example. A role is the reason your brought into a group or raid. Or a fundamental you add to the team realistically. 

There are roles in everything 

In your job, in your house, in your family, in friendships. A role is a point of responsibility. 

But this is affecting class choice for players. The statistics prove this. 

Again there is statistical evidence which proves over 80% of the player population are necro guard or rev. 

There's also statistical evidence to show 87% of the entire games fractal play in the last year has consisted of quickness firebrand, alac renegade and barrier scourge. 

Again. How a company designs something and how it's community use it aren't always the same. Player perception has most defintly driven these roles existence in higher levels of PvE gameplay.

You saying your guild doesn't means nothing. You are a minority if you raid with the guild. Over 90% of PvE content is done via the pug finder and not via a guild statistically. You aren't apart of the majority when it comes to how you engage with content. 

Again, not going to discuss if the roles exist or not ... it's not relevant to my point that you are disagreeing with. Those 'things', WHATEVER you want to call them, do not force players to play a certain way to be successful. 

I mean, you can argue there are roles all you like ... but Anet isn't designing encounters to need them, so it's just an abstraction. If people decide to base their class choices based on abstract impositions created by players that lead them away from playing how they want to play ... that's not something Anet can fix for them. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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Imagine on my vision in Balance things about gw2 .... one time there will be every role filled by every class but at least all e-specs get its unique things something like this: 

Warrior

Berserker=Power or Condition dps

Spellbraker = kiter and boonstrip

Bladesworn =Power dps or Power Support (meme spec)

 

Maybe we will get something for at least a full supp as well.

 

So at the end there will be handkite,dps,Support

For all classes 

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