Please don't remove boon heavy meta

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 1/30/2022 at 7:41 AM, Bakeneko.5826 said:

Problem is not boons themselves, its who provide it. In meta party/squad, ~70-80% of all boons are provided by 1 class (HFB), rest, usually, by alacren or alacrage. Boon needs some spreading around, or at least classes that can match HFB giving options to play something else then 2 set classe in support slots (I am speaking strictly PvE)

I agree.

i was asked recently to switch off playing a non boon healer to play a boon based class (or play a boon based build on this class)…because apparently “boons are a reflection of how good you are at healing.”

 

honestly I don’t dislike boons, I just don’t like how people mindlessly sheep over things with little knowledge of those things. Boons are great and all but I’ve heard people saying might amplifies your damage 3-4x times (lol)

 

I mean where does this information even come from? Where is the proof because last time I checked, 25 might is 750 power which is about 1/3-1/4 of a players total power (2100-3200)

another person said quickness is a 2x boost to healing/DPS…uhh no it just makes you CAST 2x faster, meaning that it depends on what you are running which can be a marginal increase to dps/healing. If you’re DPS/Healing comes from auto-attacking  then that (2x) applies to you but if it does not then it does not apply to you…so if your DPS come as a burst then the benefit of quickness is negligible.
 

Lastly boon uptimes are being used as a measure of performance, But typically people don’t get how to read these charts. Turns out these charts are read in much the same way as some of my old studies of healing (called Potential & Efficacy) which is explicitly states that’s it’s not a way one should measure performance to other people only with an idealized version of yourself. So what ends up happening is that if say 10 people are provide the same boon in a group, the primary boon giver is gonna only be able to provide 1/10 of their total efficacy in the fight meaning they are capped at providing 10% of the boon according to the charts. Even if you are performing at 100% optimal boon uptime.
 

Anyway that’s just a few instances of how annoying this boon meta is becoming…emerging a set of half truths from people that don’t really get math or have actual experience healing.

 

Turns out Druid can’t perma-protection either because harriers doesn’t effect stone spirits passive. Not saying is necessary to give perma-protection, but it lowers the efficacy of Druid healing considerably. Most of druids healing skills are actually very bad, and the protection is a way for them to lower incoming damage so that their lower healing is boosted.

Edited February 8, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

11 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I agree.

i was asked recently to switch off playing a non boon healer to play a boon based class (or play a boon based build on this class)…because apparently “boons are a reflection of how good you are at healing.”

 

honestly I don’t dislike boons, I just don’t like how people mindlessly sheep over things with little knowledge of those things. Boons are great and all but I’ve heard people saying might amplifies your damage 3-4x times (lol)

 

I mean where does this information even come from? Where is the proof because last time I checked, 25 might is 750 power which is about 1/3-1/4 of a players total power (2100-3200)

another person said quickness is a 2x boost to healing/DPS…uhh no it just makes you CAST 2x faster, meaning that it depends on what you are running which can be a marginal increase to dps/healing. If you’re DPS/Healing comes from auto-attacking  then that (2x) applies to you but if it does not then it does not apply to you…so if your DPS come as a burst then the benefit of quickness is negligible.
 

Lastly boon uptimes are being used as a measure of performance, But typically people don’t get how to read these charts. Turns out these charts are read in much the same way as some of my old studies of healing (called efficacy) which is explicitly states that’s it’s not a way one should measure performance to other people only with an idealized version of yourself. So what ends up happening is that if say 10 people are provide the same boon in a group, the primary boon giver is gonna only be able to provide 1/10 of their total efficacy in the fight meaning they are capped at providing 10% of the boon according to the charts. Even if you are performing at 100% optimal boon uptime.
 

Anyway that’s just a few instances of how annoying this boon meta is becoming…emerging a set of half truths from people that don’t really get math or have actual experience healing.

 

Turns out Druid can’t perma-protection either because harriers doesn’t effect stone spirits passive. Not saying is necessary to give perma-protection, but it lowers the efficacy of Druid healing considerably. Most of druids healing skills are actually very bad, and the protection is a way for them to lower incoming damage so that their lower healing is boosted.

Quibble: quickness is actually a 33% faster cast. 

"Increasing the casting speed by 50% means an actual reduction of casting times of just 33%."

It used to halve action times, but that was reduced several years ago.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

3 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Quibble: quickness is actually a 33% faster cast. 

"Increasing the casting speed by 50% means an actual reduction of casting times of just 33%."

It used to halve action times, but that was reduced several years ago.

 

Alright thanks. Still no matter what the actual percentage is, it is still the same situation (marginal for builds that don't utilize quickness), 33% reduction in cast time...is even worse situation than 50% reduction in cast time so if anything the figure is generous.

Edited February 8, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Alright thanks. Still no matter what the actual percentage is, it is still the same situation (marginal for builds that don't utilize quickness)

Yeah, and it is one of the reasons why I've been on a crusade against the long cast time self roots on warrior. Those were made when Quickness halved their cast times. Quickness was nerfed, but warrior's self roots were left to languish.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

14 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Yeah, and it is one of the reasons why I've been on a crusade against the long cast time self roots on warrior. Those were made when Quickness halved their cast times. Quickness was nerfed, but warrior's self roots were left to languish.

 

Sorry but the discussion here is about boon meta dealing with raids and instanced stuff. What you are talking about is more of an issue with PvP, where quickness matters no matter what the situation is because the opponent move and avoid damage, and therefor burst builds get benefit from having quickness...and really all builds benefit from quickness in pvp. (so, i do sympathize with you)

 

But In PVE, where bosses don't move or avoid damage, the situation is different. If you auto attack 100 times (in 100 seconds), quickness will make you hit 133 times in those 100 seconds. That's a 1/3 DPS increase there if your damage comes from these autoattacks. But if your build is based on a burst sequence where that burst is maybe a 3 seconds, used once every 33 seconds, than most of your DPS comes from using this burst sequence, which happens 3 times in those 100 seconds. Quickness here because it only effects cast time thus doesn't effect your DPS like it does for the autoattack spammer.

 

Sorry just making it clear, that PVP is different thing to PVE, and that what i'm talking about here is an observation in PVE and not PVP.

Edited February 8, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

Sorry but the discussion here is about boon meta dealing with raids and instanced stuff. What you are talking about is more of an issue with PvP, where quickness matters no matter what the situation is because the opponent move and avoid damage, and therefor burst builds get benefit from having quickness...and really all builds benefit from quickness in pvp. (so, i do sympathize with you)

I know, it was more of an aside.

6 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

But In PVE, where bosses don't move or avoid damage, the situation is different. If you auto attack 100 times (in 100 seconds), quickness will make you hit 133 times in those 100 seconds. That's a 1/3 DPS increase there . But if your build is based on a burst sequence where that burst is maybe a 3 seconds, used once every 33 seconds, than most of your DPS comes from using this burst sequence, which happens 3 times in those 100 seconds. Quickness here because it only effects cast time thus doesn't effect your DPS like it does for the autoattack spammer.

 

Sorry just making it clear, that PVP is different thing to PVE, and that what i'm talking about here is an observation in PVE and not PVP.

Still, squeezing in that 100B or Axe5 completely before an AoE goes off would raise non Golem DPS since you'd be able to get it off and gtfo rather than cutting it short and losing DPS.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

19 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I know, it was more of an aside.

Still, squeezing in that 100B or Axe5 completely before an AoE goes off would raise non Golem DPS since you'd be able to get it off and gtfo rather than cutting it short and losing DPS.

 

For sure, in fact most builds require quickness because the strict rotations usually need it in order to use some skill in time before say, weapon swapping and being locked out of that burst.

 

Also, Many builds are a combination of burst and sustained DPS, so usually there is always a lingering benefit to bringing quickness along. But my point was really that quickness is often conflated with being an absolute necessary component for DPS increase, when it actually depends on the builds people are using.

 

I've made builds that are 100% dependent on quickness uptime, where it's just a single button being mashed, and all traits are meant to bolster the F out of that button (my idea of having fun optimizing for lazy raiders) so when it does 20k DPS the quickness makes it do 26k dps or whatever. It's not a 40k benchmark...but if you are really bad at the game, then hey...spam this one button to victory...well that's been my goal anyway.

 

Course that's the issue right...Playing the most optimal means "playing the most complicated rotation in history" to squeeze out an extra 1k dps...and thus all these ridiculous ideas come out of the wood work about what builds to play because snow-crows plays it therefor we all play it.

 

Edit: Also just want to mention that Alacrity works very much the same way. If you have an autoattack build...Alacrity does not benefit you. Whereas, if you have a burst sequence based build, Alacrity maximally benefits you.

Edited February 8, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Puck.3697]

3 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

honestly I don’t dislike boons, I just don’t like how people mindlessly sheep over things with little knowledge of those things. Boons are great and all but I’ve heard people saying might amplifies your damage 3-4x times (lol)

Boons are crazy high in DPS / sustain. It's a dumb level of power creep and it's ridiculous Anet thought it was a good idea espically when they've become mindless to apply. Although might likely isn't 3/4x alone think their getting confused with DPS difference between optimal and non-optimal

Now you just have a group of builds which just press a button on CD for considerable damage. 

When I tested just base boons (without proffession specific buffs) boons were roughly adding 15-16k DPS but I was doing this on chrono which I can't play perfectly. So it could be more 

Imo making boons 100% uptime was one of the biggest power creeps put into the game and to stack has created this "idiot proof safe builds for easy success". So now our proffessions and new elites are balanced around them. And we end up with things alike virtuoso because everything has to be tested with this 20k DPS increase on them... 

Boons in the games current iteration imho bring more harm then good. I'd rly like Anet to have another look at this and maybe look at a healthier way of this existing. But looking at the new elites layering on boons thickly I'm going to assume they won't 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Boons are crazy high in DPS / sustain. It's a dumb level of power creep and it's ridiculous Anet thought it was a good idea espically when they've become mindless to apply. Although might likely isn't 3/4x alone think their getting confused with DPS difference between optimal and non-optimal

Now you just have a group of builds which just press a button on CD for considerable damage. 

When I tested just base boons (without proffession specific buffs) boons were roughly adding 15-16k DPS but I was doing this on chrono which I can't play perfectly. So it could be more 

Imo making boons 100% uptime was one of the biggest power creeps put into the game and to stack has created this "idiot proof safe builds for easy success". So now our proffessions and new elites are balanced around them. And we end up with things alike virtuoso because everything has to be tested with this 20k DPS increase on them... 

Boons in the games current iteration imho bring more harm then good. I'd rly like Anet to have another look at this and maybe look at a healthier way of this existing. But looking at the new elites layering on boons thickly I'm going to assume they won't 

 

It’s not 3x4x it’s 1/3x 1/4x. Even then most builds aren’t utilizing might to it’s fullest because most builds are either all power or all condi rather than hybrid. 

 

Anyway I don’t feel the same as you. I think boons are fine. What’s not fine is the misinformation that lead to them being meta to begin with. Yes boons are strong but not so strong that other things in the game aren’t stronger (because there are stronger things in the game nobody cares to know about)

Edited February 8, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Puck.3697]

3 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Anyway I don’t feel the same as you. I think boons are fine. What’s not fine is the misinformation that lead to them being meta to begin with. Yes boons are strong but not so strong that other things in the game aren’t stronger (because there are stronger things in the game nobody cares to know about)

 

Show me One Video of a Raid, who've Outdone Snowcrows kill speed without the use of optimal boon uptime After the launch of PoF Please.

Misinformation?... your going to try and Openly state you beleive Snowcrows are Wrong and their Theorycraft is Misinformation. back it up. Dont just openly Insult the Snowcrows team and try say they're using sub optimal Strats becuase i want some proper math to back that up.

your gonna need some serious evidence to back that sorta proclaimation up. Boons being Optimal is something, Hardstuck and Snowcrows both by theorycraft back, 2 of the largest COmpetitive Raid communities in the game. it seems absolute Madness to me u'd throw a insult at them so highly to as tell them they're lying to the population.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

47 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

 

Show me One Video of a Raid, who've Outdone Snowcrows kill speed without the use of optimal boon uptime After the launch of PoF Please.

Misinformation?... your going to try and Openly state you beleive Snowcrows are Wrong and their Theorycraft is Misinformation. back it up. Dont just openly Insult the Snowcrows team and try say they're using sub optimal Strats becuase i want some proper math to back that up.

your gonna need some serious evidence to back that sorta proclaimation up. Boons being Optimal is something, Hardstuck and Snowcrows both by theorycraft back, 2 of the largest COmpetitive Raid communities in the game. it seems absolute Madness to me u'd throw a insult at them so highly to as tell them they're lying to the population.

What Snowcrows comes up with is fine for them, as they focus on speed clearing content, but ask yourself if it is explicitly needed for simply clearing the content? Those are not necessarily the same thing.

[Puck.3697]

3 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

What Snowcrows comes up with is fine for them, as they focus on speed clearing content, but ask yourself if it is explicitly needed for simply clearing the content? Those are not necessarily the same thing.

Im not saying u need to, no one needs to play meta.. but to try and state Boons arent Meta or theres Stronger options is a Lie.

you can do raids as a team of level 74 core proffessions. thats proven. u can raid with whatever you like no build is required, boons arent required and specific comps arent either and thats fine, but u cant try and say boons being Meta is Misinformation.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Im not saying u need to, no one needs to play meta.. but to try and state Boons arent Meta or theres Stronger options is a Lie.

you can do raids as a team of level 74 core proffessions. thats proven. u can raid with whatever you like no build is required, boons arent required and specific comps arent either and thats fine, but u cant try and say boons being Meta is Misinformation.

Stronger options is open ended. Stronger option for 100% success rate vs fastest speed clear are different metrics and may not be the same meta comp.

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Stronger options is open ended. Stronger option for 100% success rate vs fastest speed clear are different metrics and may not be the same meta comp.

Well yes they do differ.. however PuG meta still involves boons, it just involves condi variants now

as a Example

Fractal, the fastest clears are 3x Soulbeast, 1x Firebrand 1x Alacren.

Fractals the Fastest PuG Clears is 2x Scourge 2x Firebrands 1x Alacren.

but the boon metric Dont change here realistically, In raids is the same thing realistically, power comps are still the absolute meta, however PuG metas tend to dive more into Condi comps as they're Safer as Scourge is a Far harder carry / Safe choice then say soulbeast or holo.

but u have to remember the end results the same

for example.

a Snowcrows meta builds, generally are Power based. and Bring 2x Chrono tanks to provide 5 man Quickness because thats the most optimal Role compression.

However. PuG metas generally from Condi Firebrands. because they can do the highest Condi DPS while also bringing Quickness. Same case for Renegade.

PuG meta Still consists of boons, Wingman Proves its the most Used and Fastest strategy by PuG Comps as of current with the highest winrate and usuage. pug usuage doesnt really change here.

They still consist with the actual meta. the difference is PuGS bring More scourges / Firebrands instead of using Chronos role suppression and Run Power Comps realistically... but yeah talking from both PUG and Kill speed meta. These boons are Stacked in either.

its not misinformation to state boons are meta in either side realistically. PuGs use just as many boons. PuGs tend to not use Power DPSers and Role suppression however as Firebrand and things just have higher winrates and require Less skill to execute.

Ofcourse U can effectively do all content regardless of build.. theres no need to become "strict in comp" you could stack 10 Minonmancers and do all the raid content in the game if you actually wanted to. i dunno why in a Static or a guild raid you've put too much weight on it realistically but when we're talking about Meta u are talking strict choice.

Just the same. as u effectively could just quickness with 10 Auto attack builds and do content, but if ur using a Auto attack build ur not trying to be meta anyway realistically.

Edited February 9, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

The question isn't really if boons are fine or not; clearly Anet doesn't have a problem with the boons situation in either case. In fact, it's evident with how we see them buffing classes so people play them (e.g., QScrapper) as well as the concept of some of the EoD especs. 

Here is my take ... I don't think Anet cares as much for how badly boons break content for skilled players as they do for people playing how they want and succeed doing content. I believe Boon sharing classes are INTENDED to be crutches to enable people to succeed because really good players don't actually need boons at this level of application (or any for that matter) to succeed doing content. 

Again, look at what is real in the game, not what you believe it should be. It's not about what's happening at the top levels with the most capable players. It's about what's happening at the lowest levels of barely capable players. Do we still have people in the house that don't believe this game is targeting a casual friendly market? Look around ... 

Edited February 9, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Mell.4873]

14 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

You can disagree with any part you want, it's statistically proven. 

Quaterly reports are released by NCsoft showing this games earning and popularity. 

Wingman and more track all fractals and raids being done + the teams that do them. 

The content? I'm not asking for content. I'm asking for balance which does more then allow 3 proffessions to tower over the rest. 

 

I agree there needs to be some balance around the top three professions since I have on many occasions complained about them too. 

The best reason why balance in this game is self defeating is that there will always be the top professions. I believe this game does a good job of making classes who have a broken mechanic still feel good, most other MMO nerf the unique and op part of classes into the ground like what happened in ESO. 

 

The true way out is stick to the implementation of their new classes and don't back down even if the player numbers suffer. They need a true trinity to survive, one that content can be created around. 

 

[Puck.3697]

Just now, Mell.4873 said:

The best reason why balance in this game is self defeating is that there will always be the top professions. I believe this game does a good job of making classes who have a broken mechanic still feel good, most other MMO nerf the unique and op part of classes into the ground like what happened in ESO. 

the problem is. this game slowly falls into "micro balancing"

because its Spreading Layers of more and more accessibility to boons.. so its no longer "looking for Quickness" its "Looking for a Quickness that can also provide aegis and stab I.E Firebrand"...

and with every new launch they gonna have to bundle that alittle higher to change the meta, til u eventually arrive at between 2 players they stack all the boons.

Boons are kinda Long term faling system where this is considered because its effectively the biggest role suppression wins, instead of bringing players who bring different roles.

[Mell.4873]

7 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

the problem is. this game slowly falls into "micro balancing"

because its Spreading Layers of more and more accessibility to boons.. so its no longer "looking for Quickness" its "Looking for a Quickness that can also provide aegis and stab I.E Firebrand"...

and with every new launch they gonna have to bundle that alittle higher to change the meta, til u eventually arrive at between 2 players they stack all the boons.

Boons are kinda Long term faling system where this is considered because its effectively the biggest role suppression wins, instead of bringing players who bring different roles.

Honestly I only really see that with firebrand and that is mostly because the other two quickness healer are so hard to play. 

This is from personal experience, chronomancer has very good heals with mantras but getting enough shatters off to get 100% quickness uptime is really hard. 

Scrapper is a little better off with quickness but the heals are to inconsistent and the barrier application is not strong enough to justify it being taken.

 

If they made the boon application more consistent in those other two specs you would see more role diversity. 

[Puck.3697]

4 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Honestly I only really see that with firebrand and that is mostly because the other two quickness healer are so hard to play. 

RR Renegade is another.. doing Pure DPS While providing 10 man Alac.. something only 2 Proffessions can access even when including EoD Speccs.

Druid is another providing Spirits, Might 25 + rly good with quite a few mechanics simultaniously while healing.

5 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

If they made the boon application more consistent in those other two specs you would see more role diversity. 

or if boons were more unique and u didnt have overlaps it'd force u to take more then a Select few.

[Urphen.2857]

10 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Honestly I only really see that with firebrand and that is mostly because the other two quickness healer are so hard to play. 

This is from personal experience, chronomancer has very good heals with mantras but getting enough shatters off to get 100% quickness uptime is really hard. 

Scrapper is a little better off with quickness but the heals are to inconsistent and the barrier application is not strong enough to justify it being taken.

 

If they made the boon application more consistent in those other two specs you would see more role diversity. 

Are you even playing this game? 

Chrono good healer but problems with enough shatters? 

Pls tell me how can chrono have problems with shatters for quickness?

Rly I see you claiming every time wat a good and experienced mesmer player you are an than there is every time coming something like this, chrono can't Heal consistently enough to be a healer and scrapper what you calling inconsistent is in reality a good healer + giving quickness is easy.

 

For real at this point it's seems to be pure trolling or the lack of basic understanding of classes

[Mell.4873]

10 hours ago, Urphen.2857 said:

Are you even playing this game? 

Chrono good healer but problems with enough shatters? 

Pls tell me how can chrono have problems with shatters for quickness?

Rly I see you claiming every time wat a good and experienced mesmer player you are an than there is every time coming something like this, chrono can't Heal consistently enough to be a healer and scrapper what you calling inconsistent is in reality a good healer + giving quickness is easy.

 

For real at this point it's seems to be pure trolling or the lack of basic understanding of classes

Well I find it hard to get enough clones up to shatter them, enemies die or the clones die before I can get 3.

This is very true in fractals where I most play. 

 

Mantra chrono can provide alot of burst heals but very little in the way of consistent healing, while Scrapper is the opposite your primary burst heal is bandage blast and vital burst but you have endless med blaster spam.