Logical Inconsistency

[Ithilwen.1529]

I've spent the better part of two days trying to solo a difficult mission and it's given me a lot of time to think.

Mesmer has been a punishment class from GW1. Clone death was removed from the game, Retaliation was also removed from Mesmer. These were said to create a "toxic" environment. Both mechanisms punished indiscriminate attacks. They were therefore hated as "cheese."

Along comes Spellbreaker, a specialization expressly created to punish indiscriminate attacking. That doesn't appear logically consistent.

SB, too, is considered "cheese." I'd argue that none of the above are. They simply require slowing down on the buttons and thinking.

Now, I'm all for punishment mechanics. They could act as a check on all the kittened aoe spam and face rolling. I'm envious of Warriors with SB's Mesmer-like power and vibe. I feel stepped on though.

I'd like to see GW2 move back toward defined roles. In my view the game loses it's cachet when the classes are so alike and so far from there GW1 roots.

The balance process needs to be improved. It needs to be based only on logic and game performance. I suggest that one way to improve this would be for the balance decisions be overseen by someone not involved or personally invested in the class designs.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:I've spent the better part of two days trying to solo a difficult mission and it's given me a lot of time to think.

Mesmer has been a punishment class from GW1. Clone death was removed from the game, Retaliation was also removed from Mesmer. These were said to create a "toxic" environment. Both mechanisms punished indiscriminate attacks. They were therefore hated as "cheese."

Along comes Spellbreaker, a specialization expressly created to punish indiscriminate attacking. That doesn't appear logically consistent.

SB, too, is considered "cheese." I'd argue that none of the above are. They simply require slowing down on the buttons and thinking.

Now, I'm all for punishment mechanics. They could act as a check on all the kittened aoe spam and face rolling. I'm envious of Warriors with SB's Mesmer-like power and vibe. I feel stepped on though.

I'd like to see GW2 move back toward defined roles. In my view the game loses it's cachet when the classes are so alike and so far from there GW1 roots.

The balance process needs to be improved. It needs to be based only on logic and game performance. I suggest that one way to improve this would be for the balance decisions be overseen by someone not involved or personally invested in the class designs.

They were/are considered cheese because while the opponent needs to think when to attack...you don't need to think when as both are semi-immune to punishment themselves : one can chain distortion/blur/stealth/dodges/blocks ect..the other has perma stability/resistance/auto-immune proc traits....mesmer and warrior are possibly the only two classes which are the hardest to pin down/disable...

Also if you want the game to go back to GW1 then I'd suggest you to take a hard look again....GW1 had no one man army like GW2, had no stealth or chaininable blocks, conditions overkill etc etc...mesmer would not be anywhere close to what it's now...should we go back to a GW1 environment...

[Edu.6984]

Retaliation and some condis are not comparable with a block that gives resistance, does aoe dmg and aoe boon removal every couple seconds. The "counter play" is not attack, but this is basically giving a 1.5s immune every 8s. Combined with the several stances and blocks it makes warrior almost imortal.

[Razor.6392]

Newsflash, spellbreaker isn't just overtuned because of Full counter. It's a sum of all factors which include blocks, mobility, sustain, invulnerability to condition builds that aren't necro, passive procs, boon hate, cc and good damage. Yes, most of these are present in core warrior, but the spellbreaker spec is the cherry on top. The whole package is simply unbearable.

Also, posting in an ithilwen thread.

[Crossaber.8934]

Today just got a nice close match, our side won by 50 or so points ahead. The enemy team got 2 spellbreaker, our side got 1 and 2 rev.

It was hard to fight at mid,as there are 2 spellbreakers. We was at disadvantage at first, but just slow down the attack, stay a bit away from the spellbreaker. Burst him down after his FC triggered, we slowly gain upper hand.

It is hard as spellbreaker is defend spec, and player makes it even harder by spam attack feeding FC.

[vorpal.1497]

Yay more SB threads.

@Ithilwen.1529 said:They simply require slowing down on the buttons and thinking.

What about the spellbreaker though? Mindlessly spamming FC on cooldown and being rewarded for it

[shadowpass.4236]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:I've spent the better part of two days trying to solo a difficult mission and it's given me a lot of time to think.

Mesmer has been a punishment class from GW1. Clone death was removed from the game, Retaliation was also removed from Mesmer. These were said to create a "toxic" environment. Both mechanisms punished indiscriminate attacks. They were therefore hated as "cheese."

Along comes Spellbreaker, a specialization expressly created to punish indiscriminate attacking. That doesn't appear logically consistent.

SB, too, is considered "cheese." I'd argue that none of the above are. They simply require slowing down on the buttons and thinking.

Now, I'm all for punishment mechanics. They could act as a check on all the kittened aoe spam and face rolling. I'm envious of Warriors with SB's Mesmer-like power and vibe. I feel stepped on though.

I'd like to see GW2 move back toward defined roles. In my view the game loses it's cachet when the classes are so alike and so far from there GW1 roots.

The balance process needs to be improved. It needs to be based only on logic and game performance. I suggest that one way to improve this would be for the balance decisions be overseen by someone not involved or personally invested in the class designs.

Guild wars 1 mesmer didn't even have clones.

And spellbreaker is going to be nerfed, late to the party?

[Morwath.9817]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:I've spent the better part of two days trying to solo a difficult mission and it's given me a lot of time to think.

Mesmer has been a punishment class from GW1. Clone death was removed from the game, Retaliation was also removed from Mesmer. These were said to create a "toxic" environment. Both mechanisms punished indiscriminate attacks. They were therefore hated as "cheese."

Along comes Spellbreaker, a specialization expressly created to punish indiscriminate attacking. That doesn't appear logically consistent.

SB, too, is considered "cheese." I'd argue that none of the above are. They simply require slowing down on the buttons and thinking.

Now, I'm all for punishment mechanics. They could act as a check on all the kittened aoe spam and face rolling. I'm envious of Warriors with SB's Mesmer-like power and vibe. I feel stepped on though.

I'd like to see GW2 move back toward defined roles. In my view the game loses it's cachet when the classes are so alike and so far from there GW1 roots.

The balance process needs to be improved. It needs to be based only on logic and game performance. I suggest that one way to improve this would be for the balance decisions be overseen by someone not involved or personally invested in the class designs.

When Quaggan played GW1 Mesmers were usualy "support" like class focused on disabling enemies, draining their energy, stripping their enchantments, helping to kill someone, but rarely killing their victims themselves. Quaggan considers it funny you remind us about GW1 Mesmers, while you used to defend stealth 1 shots in the past and you call stuff "cheese", not that Quaggan disagrees SB requires tunning down, Quaggan agrees, but considers your points invalid, because you shouldn't be "envious" at SB taking Mesmer role, when you "took his job" at killing stuff.

[Ithilwen.1529]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:I've spent the better part of two days trying to solo a difficult mission and it's given me a lot of time to think.

Mesmer has been a punishment class from GW1. Clone death was removed from the game, Retaliation was also removed from Mesmer. These were said to create a "toxic" environment. Both mechanisms punished indiscriminate attacks. They were therefore hated as "cheese."

Along comes Spellbreaker, a specialization expressly created to punish indiscriminate attacking.

That doesn't appear logically consistent.

SB, too, is considered "cheese." I'd argue that none of the above are. They simply require slowing down on the buttons and thinking.

Now, I'm all for punishment mechanics. They could act as a check on all the kittened aoe spam and face rolling. I'm envious of Warriors with SB's Mesmer-like power and vibe.

I feel stepped on though.

I'd like to see GW2 move back toward defined roles. In my view the game loses it's cachet when the classes are so alike and so far from there GW1 roots.

The balance process needs to be improved. It needs to be based

only

on logic and game performance. I suggest that one way to improve this would be for the balance decisions be overseen by someone not involved or personally invested in the class designs.

They were/are considered cheese because while the opponent needs to think when to attack...you don't need to think when as both are semi-immune to punishment themselves : one can chain distortion/blur/stealth/dodges/blocks ect..the other has perma stability/resistance/auto-immune proc traits....mesmer and warrior are possibly the only two classes which are the hardest to pin down/disable...

Also if you want the game to go back to GW1 then I'd suggest you to take a hard look again....

GW1 had no one man army like GW2, had no stealth or chaininable blocks, conditions overkill etc etc

...mesmer would not be anywhere close to what it's now...should we go back to a GW1 environment...

I'd much prefer the GW1 Mesmer to the Gw2 Rt/Me. GW2 players would find such a class very difficult to deal with though.

[Ithilwen.1529]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:I've spent the better part of two days trying to solo a difficult mission and it's given me a lot of time to think.

Mesmer has been a punishment class from GW1. Clone death was removed from the game, Retaliation was also removed from Mesmer. These were said to create a "toxic" environment. Both mechanisms punished indiscriminate attacks. They were therefore hated as "cheese."

Along comes Spellbreaker, a specialization expressly created to punish indiscriminate attacking.

That doesn't appear logically consistent.

SB, too, is considered "cheese." I'd argue that none of the above are. They simply require slowing down on the buttons and thinking.

Now, I'm all for punishment mechanics. They could act as a check on all the kittened aoe spam and face rolling. I'm envious of Warriors with SB's Mesmer-like power and vibe.

I feel stepped on though.

I'd like to see GW2 move back toward defined roles. In my view the game loses it's cachet when the classes are so alike and so far from there GW1 roots.

The balance process needs to be improved. It needs to be based

only

on logic and game performance. I suggest that one way to improve this would be for the balance decisions be overseen by someone not involved or personally invested in the class designs.

Guild wars 1 mesmer didn't even have clones.

And spellbreaker is going to be nerfed, late to the party?

GW1 Mesmer doesn't have clones. I have repeatedly compared the GW2 Mesmer to a Ritualist with Mesmer secondary,( Rt/Me.) With clone death, some of the GW1 Mesmer's punishment capability was emulated. The same is true of GW2 interrupt traits.

Clone death is no longer available and interrupt is now heavily nerfed to the point that it's difficult to play with any effectiveness. That's not direct nerfs, but stability and resistance are too prevalent to use interrupt effectively.

One of my points was that Spell Breaker actually emulates GW1 Mesmer far better than Mesmer does. They get heavy armor as an extra treat.

I have personal listened to a balance team dev claim that punishment mechanics, ( clone death specifically, ) were "toxic" to the game. Yet, here we have SB which does it even better. I find this logically inconsistent.

[Ithilwen.1529]

@Morwath.9817 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:I've spent the better part of two days trying to solo a difficult mission and it's given me a lot of time to think.

Mesmer has been a punishment class from GW1. Clone death was removed from the game, Retaliation was also removed from Mesmer. These were said to create a "toxic" environment. Both mechanisms punished indiscriminate attacks. They were therefore hated as "cheese."

Along comes Spellbreaker, a specialization expressly created to punish indiscriminate attacking.

That doesn't appear logically consistent.

SB, too, is considered "cheese." I'd argue that none of the above are. They simply require slowing down on the buttons and thinking.

Now, I'm all for punishment mechanics. They could act as a check on all the kittened aoe spam and face rolling. I'm envious of Warriors with SB's Mesmer-like power and vibe.

I feel stepped on though.

I'd like to see GW2 move back toward defined roles. In my view the game loses it's cachet when the classes are so alike and so far from there GW1 roots.

The balance process needs to be improved. It needs to be based

only

on logic and game performance. I suggest that one way to improve this would be for the balance decisions be overseen by someone not involved or personally invested in the class designs.

When Quaggan played GW1 Mesmers were usualy "support" like class focused on disabling enemies, draining their energy, stripping their enchantments, helping to kill someone, but rarely killing their victims themselves. Quaggan considers it funny you remind us about GW1 Mesmers, while you used to defend stealth 1 shots in the past and you call stuff "cheese", not that Quaggan disagrees SB requires tunning down, Quaggan agrees, but considers your points invalid, because you shouldn't be "envious" at SB taking Mesmer role, when you "took his job" at killing stuff.

This girl regularly plays GW1, though she often plays Monk. ( Mo/A ) Truthfully, this girl thinks that SB requires only minor tuning if at all. A bit less sustain. This girl did not call anything "Cheese." Rather, she said that some things are considered "cheese."

Mesmer is hardly a "one-shot" specialist. This girl admits that it might have been so a couple of years ago.

As to roles. This girl was arguing that the roles should be better defined and she wished that Mesmer would move back toward it's original role. She alos contended that such a role would be very difficult for gw2 players to contend with. It would largely forbid condi aoe spam.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:I've spent the better part of two days trying to solo a difficult mission and it's given me a lot of time to think.

Mesmer has been a punishment class from GW1. Clone death was removed from the game, Retaliation was also removed from Mesmer. These were said to create a "toxic" environment. Both mechanisms punished indiscriminate attacks. They were therefore hated as "cheese."

Along comes Spellbreaker, a specialization expressly created to punish indiscriminate attacking.

That doesn't appear logically consistent.

SB, too, is considered "cheese." I'd argue that none of the above are. They simply require slowing down on the buttons and thinking.

Now, I'm all for punishment mechanics. They could act as a check on all the kittened aoe spam and face rolling. I'm envious of Warriors with SB's Mesmer-like power and vibe.

I feel stepped on though.

I'd like to see GW2 move back toward defined roles. In my view the game loses it's cachet when the classes are so alike and so far from there GW1 roots.

The balance process needs to be improved. It needs to be based

only

on logic and game performance. I suggest that one way to improve this would be for the balance decisions be overseen by someone not involved or personally invested in the class designs.

Guild wars 1 mesmer didn't even have clones.

And spellbreaker is going to be nerfed, late to the party?

GW1 Mesmer doesn't have clones. I have repeatedly compared the GW2 Mesmer to a Ritualist with Mesmer secondary,( Rt/Me.) With clone death, some of the GW1 Mesmer's punishment capability was emulated. The same is true of GW2 interrupt traits.

Clone death is no longer available and interrupt is now heavily nerfed to the point that it's difficult to play with any effectiveness. That's not direct nerfs, but stability and resistance are too prevalent to use interrupt effectively.

One of my points was that Spell Breaker actually emulates GW1 Mesmer far better than Mesmer does.

They get heavy armor as an extra treat.

I have personal listened to a balance team dev claim that punishment mechanics, ( clone death specifically, ) were "toxic" to the game. Yet, here we have SB which does it even better.

I find this logically inconsistent.

It's "logically inconsistent," everyone knows this. That's why its going to be nerfed. You're basically bringing up the point that Spellbreakers are broken 2 days before a balance patch, as if this is a brand new topic no one has talked about before lol

[Morwath.9817]

@Ithilwen.1529 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:I've spent the better part of two days trying to solo a difficult mission and it's given me a lot of time to think.

Mesmer has been a punishment class from GW1. Clone death was removed from the game, Retaliation was also removed from Mesmer. These were said to create a "toxic" environment. Both mechanisms punished indiscriminate attacks. They were therefore hated as "cheese."

Along comes Spellbreaker, a specialization expressly created to punish indiscriminate attacking.

That doesn't appear logically consistent.

SB, too, is considered "cheese." I'd argue that none of the above are. They simply require slowing down on the buttons and thinking.

Now, I'm all for punishment mechanics. They could act as a check on all the kittened aoe spam and face rolling. I'm envious of Warriors with SB's Mesmer-like power and vibe.

I feel stepped on though.

I'd like to see GW2 move back toward defined roles. In my view the game loses it's cachet when the classes are so alike and so far from there GW1 roots.

The balance process needs to be improved. It needs to be based

only

on logic and game performance. I suggest that one way to improve this would be for the balance decisions be overseen by someone not involved or personally invested in the class designs.

When Quaggan played GW1 Mesmers were usualy "support" like class focused on disabling enemies, draining their energy, stripping their enchantments, helping to kill someone, but rarely killing their victims themselves. Quaggan considers it funny you remind us about GW1 Mesmers, while you used to defend stealth 1 shots in the past and you call stuff "cheese", not that Quaggan disagrees SB requires tunning down, Quaggan agrees, but considers your points invalid, because you shouldn't be "envious" at SB taking Mesmer role, when you "took his job" at killing stuff.

This girl regularly plays GW1, though she often plays Monk. ( Mo/A ) Truthfully, this girl thinks that SB requires only minor tuning if at all. A bit less sustain. This girl did not call anything "Cheese." Rather, she said that some things are considered "cheese."

Mesmer is hardly a "one-shot" specialist. This girl admits that it might have been so a couple of years ago.

As to roles. This girl was arguing that the roles should be better defined and she wished that Mesmer would move back toward it's original role. She alos contended that such a role would be very difficult for gw2 players to contend with. It would largely forbid condi aoe spam.

Words are hard for Quaggans, but Quaggan think he understands Girl now.Girl likes Spellbreaker, Girl thinks Spellbreaker is more or less fine and should be Mesmer elite specialization class identity wise?

[Ithilwen.1529]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:I've spent the better part of two days trying to solo a difficult mission and it's given me a lot of time to think.

Mesmer has been a punishment class from GW1. Clone death was removed from the game, Retaliation was also removed from Mesmer. These were said to create a "toxic" environment. Both mechanisms punished indiscriminate attacks. They were therefore hated as "cheese."

Along comes Spellbreaker, a specialization expressly created to punish indiscriminate attacking.

That doesn't appear logically consistent.

SB, too, is considered "cheese." I'd argue that none of the above are. They simply require slowing down on the buttons and thinking.

Now, I'm all for punishment mechanics. They could act as a check on all the kittened aoe spam and face rolling. I'm envious of Warriors with SB's Mesmer-like power and vibe.

I feel stepped on though.

I'd like to see GW2 move back toward defined roles. In my view the game loses it's cachet when the classes are so alike and so far from there GW1 roots.

The balance process needs to be improved. It needs to be based

only

on logic and game performance. I suggest that one way to improve this would be for the balance decisions be overseen by someone not involved or personally invested in the class designs.

Guild wars 1 mesmer didn't even have clones.

And spellbreaker is going to be nerfed, late to the party?

GW1 Mesmer doesn't have clones. I have repeatedly compared the GW2 Mesmer to a Ritualist with Mesmer secondary,( Rt/Me.) With clone death, some of the GW1 Mesmer's punishment capability was emulated. The same is true of GW2 interrupt traits.

Clone death is no longer available and interrupt is now heavily nerfed to the point that it's difficult to play with any effectiveness. That's not direct nerfs, but stability and resistance are too prevalent to use interrupt effectively.

One of my points was that Spell Breaker actually emulates GW1 Mesmer far better than Mesmer does.

They get heavy armor as an extra treat.

I have personal listened to a balance team dev claim that punishment mechanics, ( clone death specifically, ) were "toxic" to the game. Yet, here we have SB which does it even better.

I find this logically inconsistent.

It's "logically inconsistent," everyone knows this. That's why its going to be nerfed. You're basically bringing up the point that Spellbreakers are broken 2 days before a balance patch, as if this is a brand new topic no one has talked about before lol

You misunderstand. I am saying that Spellbreaker isn't as broken as claimed. It simply requires a playstyle adjustment. Less spam and more strategy.

The thread title was because punishment was largely removed from Mesmer as "toxic." Yet, Spellbreaker is based on mechanics similar to GW1 Mesmer and essentially a punishment specialization. Hence, logical inconsistency.

[Ithilwen.1529]

@Morwath.9817 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:I've spent the better part of two days trying to solo a difficult mission and it's given me a lot of time to think.

Mesmer has been a punishment class from GW1. Clone death was removed from the game, Retaliation was also removed from Mesmer. These were said to create a "toxic" environment. Both mechanisms punished indiscriminate attacks. They were therefore hated as "cheese."

Along comes Spellbreaker, a specialization expressly created to punish indiscriminate attacking.

That doesn't appear logically consistent.

SB, too, is considered "cheese." I'd argue that none of the above are. They simply require slowing down on the buttons and thinking.

Now, I'm all for punishment mechanics. They could act as a check on all the kittened aoe spam and face rolling. I'm envious of Warriors with SB's Mesmer-like power and vibe.

I feel stepped on though.

I'd like to see GW2 move back toward defined roles. In my view the game loses it's cachet when the classes are so alike and so far from there GW1 roots.

The balance process needs to be improved. It needs to be based

only

on logic and game performance. I suggest that one way to improve this would be for the balance decisions be overseen by someone not involved or personally invested in the class designs.

When Quaggan played GW1 Mesmers were usualy "support" like class focused on disabling enemies, draining their energy, stripping their enchantments, helping to kill someone, but rarely killing their victims themselves. Quaggan considers it funny you remind us about GW1 Mesmers, while you used to defend stealth 1 shots in the past and you call stuff "cheese", not that Quaggan disagrees SB requires tunning down, Quaggan agrees, but considers your points invalid, because you shouldn't be "envious" at SB taking Mesmer role, when you "took his job" at killing stuff.

This girl regularly plays GW1, though she often plays Monk. ( Mo/A ) Truthfully, this girl thinks that SB requires only minor tuning if at all. A bit less sustain. This girl did not call anything "Cheese." Rather, she said that some things are considered "cheese."

Mesmer is hardly a "one-shot" specialist. This girl admits that it might have been so a couple of years ago.

As to roles. This girl was arguing that the roles should be better defined and she wished that Mesmer would move back toward it's original role. She alos contended that such a role would be very difficult for gw2 players to contend with. It would largely forbid condi aoe spam.

Words are hard for Quaggans, but Quaggan think he understands Girl now.Girl likes Spellbreaker, Girl thinks Spellbreaker is more or less fine and should be Mesmer elite specialization class identity wise?

Girl agrees in large part. In addition she would like ANET to be more consistent in it's decisions.

[Ithilwen.1529]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Ithilwen.1529 said:I've spent the better part of two days trying to solo a difficult mission and it's given me a lot of time to think.

Mesmer has been a punishment class from GW1. Clone death was removed from the game, Retaliation was also removed from Mesmer. These were said to create a "toxic" environment. Both mechanisms punished indiscriminate attacks. They were therefore hated as "cheese."

Along comes Spellbreaker, a specialization expressly created to punish indiscriminate attacking.

That doesn't appear logically consistent.

SB, too, is considered "cheese." I'd argue that none of the above are. They simply require slowing down on the buttons and thinking.

Now, I'm all for punishment mechanics. They could act as a check on all the kittened aoe spam and face rolling. I'm envious of Warriors with SB's Mesmer-like power and vibe.

I feel stepped on though.

I'd like to see GW2 move back toward defined roles. In my view the game loses it's cachet when the classes are so alike and so far from there GW1 roots.

The balance process needs to be improved. It needs to be based

only

on logic and game performance. I suggest that one way to improve this would be for the balance decisions be overseen by someone not involved or personally invested in the class designs.

They were/are considered cheese because while the opponent needs to think when to attack...you don't need to think when as both are semi-immune to punishment themselves : one can chain distortion/blur/stealth/dodges/blocks ect..the other has perma stability/resistance/auto-immune proc traits....mesmer and warrior are possibly the only two classes which are the hardest to pin down/disable...

Also if you want the game to go back to GW1 then I'd suggest you to take a hard look again....

GW1 had no one man army like GW2, had no stealth or chaininable blocks, conditions overkill etc etc

...mesmer would not be anywhere close to what it's now...should we go back to a GW1 environment...

I'd agree that Guardian/Warrior is "semi-immune" but that could be fixed with small trims. I'd like to see GW2 move away from the "one man Army" model.

[feroxeu.7416]

retailiation and weakness need to be removed from the game imo. Its brain dead easy and rewards bad players.