I dont understand the fascination with Cantha

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Crocuta.1785 said:

I understand your questioning and be sure that for many gw1 fans the questioning is also present.
factions was darker less slick, it also had two of the most amazing classes in the game.
for the moment of what we are shown nothing apart from the names of places make me think of factions.

Good, because this is not factions. 🤨 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Toast.6459]

15 hours ago, EpicName.4523 said:

You are one of those, eh? I really don't have to justify my likes or dislikes. They are there and that's it. When you try to defend your preferences you are admitting there is something wrong.  

 

I beg to differ. You can draw inspiration from something without trying to please a crowd and you can do so in a flattering way to push sales. Look, I will give you an example. Almost every (old) US movie has the typical American Chad hero that is Chuck Norris in disguise. Why? Because the audiences watching this consciously or not want to associate with him. He is "their" guy. Meanwhile, many (old and modern) movies have the Russian bad guy, the drunkard, the terrorist, the evil mastermind, whatever. Do you think someone in Russia would watch that garbage and like it? Some would, if it is well made, but most wouldn't. And that's how it should be because Russians are not the intended audience, westerners are. Same with every type of media.

I had to Google that place to remember where it is. Do you have do to the same for an entire expansion? It doesn't bother me when someone adds an odd reference or addition, what bothers me is entire landmass and setting that is ALL about that.

Yeah man, I'm one of those that sees that you're just baiting for baits sake, and nothing you've said in these 5 pages made any sense at all. You being told you sound ridiculous isn't being told to "justify your likes".

[Rogue.8235]

On 2/3/2022 at 11:48 AM, EpicName.4523 said:

In a traditional fantasy setting you have some form of medieval society (more or less). You have dragons, spells, wizards, oversized swords and etc. Yes, there are deviations and even despite that it can get somewhat stale and boring after awhile. However, you just know what to expect and you expect that everything fits together nicely in this world.

 

Recently, I was looking at the last trailer released and all I saw was some depressing steampunk metropolis. It looked completely out place and tbh - kind of ugly. An overcrowded dumpster of gray concrete. 

 

I also remember the weapons that came with the purchase of EoD. All of them had a distinct...Chinese look. Call it Cantha or Cathay, it is China. Of course it will look Chinese, but that's not the point. Point is the association I had - these bamboo weapons reminded me of a cheap Chinese souvenir, the type they sell to gullible tourists in discount shops.

 

And I suddenly came to the conclusion that there will be an entire expansion dedicated to a culture that is kind of out of place in a typical power fantasy with an art style on armor and weapons that I will dislike aesthetically. I remember Mists of Pandaria in WoW and when they announced the pandas I was like - I AM OUT. The areas, the music, the entire setting was just trying too much to be China without really being one. And that was everywhere, it was almost impossible to escape. In a world with orcs, goblins elves and undead there were also the fat pandas. The former April's fools joke that came to be for real.

 

I don't have anything against China, but I am afraid most developers have the tendency to glorify the culture they want to portray, maybe out of respect or maybe because they think it will attract audience in said country. (Probably the latter)

 

Question is, why do people want to see China so much in this game? Am I the only one to fear the setting will be a turn off?

 

Your argument:

P1: Cantha is based on Chinese culture

P2: Other video game development studios pander to China

Therefore: ArenaNet is pandering to China

 

Notice that my reply addresses premise 1, which is proven to be fallacious.

What I failed to address is. Premise 2.  The context that your premise fails to address is that other video game development studios have a Chinese company with a controlling interest in them.  ArenaNet is owned by NCSoft, which is a Korean publisher.  ArenaNet does not have shares owned by a Chinese firm.

Your conclusion is an inductive fallacy in the form of  dicto simpliciter, wherein you generalize the actions of other dev studios and apply it to ArenaNet, specifically.  This fallacy ignores all context of the particular case.  Id est, you state that index fingers and ring fingers are fingers, therefore the thumb is a finger.  Your conclusion is logically invalid.

 

On 2/3/2022 at 12:37 PM, EpicName.4523 said:

You seem to think that I am ignorant enough to confuse China with the entirety of East Asia.  I am not. 

However, I can assure you that given the desire of the vast majority of game developers to ponder to Chinese markets, this is the idea they usually try to present. Cantha is China, not Vietnam or Cambodia or whatever, at the very least given its name, lore and obvious references.

 

You are right the game has guns and snipers and whatnot, but these are not unique to this MMO and I have no problem with them. Other games have done it too and it works. And yes, it makes sense that different cultures are...different. 

 

My fear is that the art, setting, music and everything else, the entirety of the expansion, of the end-game if you want to call it, is based on a culture I personally dislike from purely an aesthetic point of view. I fear that presence will be overwhelming and inescapable. My hope is that if they want to portray China, they just don't overdo it, that's all. 

Here, you double down on the second premise and conclusion of your previous post.

You then backpedal the previous assertion that EOD is Chinese based to state that you fear it will be Chinese based.  You essentially hedge yourself with this post.

 

On 2/3/2022 at 1:11 PM, EpicName.4523 said:

The difference is in the fact that in Egypt and Africa there isn't a huge market of literally billions of people. A market that the devs might want to capture by relentlessly pondering to what they consider that this market might want. 

Here, you attempt to support the conclusion of your original post by continuing the dicto simpliciter fallacy of the second premise.  Again, you ignore all context and merely apply a sweeping generalization of what dev studios owned by Chinese companies do and apply it to ArenaNet, who is not owned by a Chinese company, is owned by a Korean publisher, and is not the other dev studios (i.e., it's a different company run by different people with different employees).  

 

As a personal note, Elona has a lot of Middle Eastern influence with lots of Northern African influence.  There wasn't much Sub-Saharan African influence.  I, personally, would have liked to see much more Sub-Saharan influence.

 

On 2/3/2022 at 4:07 PM, EpicName.4523 said:

Ah yes, my fears and hopes. Could speak about yours, but I neither care for nor share them, so I express mine. And yes, I do not particularly enjoy the setting, but that doesn't mean I am against playing it. Don't put words in my mouth, thanks. 

While this comment, in isolation, isn't bad, it is based on the implication that your second premise and conclusion of the original post is valid.  It is not, based on the foregoing reasons I provided.

 

On 2/3/2022 at 4:16 PM, EpicName.4523 said:

Uhm, you do realize that an expansion to a game released in 2006 is completely different to one in 2022, right? The world is a different place now. Many companies are trying to please China, including tech giants like Google. Games are made specifically for that market. Celebrities make videos to apologize for some perceived slight. Censorship is enforced just to make a game sellable there. So a game made today will have entirely different goals compared to before and this change must not be underestimated.

Here, you again attempt to assert the validity of your conclusion in the original post.  Premise one is invalid on its face.  Premise two ignores the context of ArenaNet and is an inductive fallacy.  While I understand your fear of the geopolitical tension and economic warfare, it does not necessarily apply here.  You ignore that your examples are of entities that China has a controlling interest in, China does not have a controlling interest in ArenaNet, and ArenaNet is owned by a Korean publisher.  Hence, it is dicto simpliciter of imprecise inductive reasoning.  Your conclusion is still invalid and you attempt to rationalize yourself based on the invalid conclusion of your original post.

 

On 2/3/2022 at 4:55 PM, EpicName.4523 said:

I guess I don't explain myself very well. It doesn't matter if GW2 is released in China. It doesn't matter if it is in a separate server.

 

You are a customer. You like certain things. When you see things that spark your interest you pay money for them. The people that sell you the stuff you like make more of it in order to sell it to you.

 

You live in China. You like Chinese culture(real shock, I know). You see a game that sparks your interest because it is centered around a version of the place you live in. You buy the game or the cosmetics related to it. You spend time and money. The people that develop the game see that they make a profit by selling you stuff. They decide they should focus their efforts on selling you more.

 

And when you have a large market with potentially billions of customers, you follow that path until the customers' wallets are empty. It's called capitalism and I can't explain this any clearer.

 Here, you again try to support your invalid conclusion using more inductive fallacies as well as stereotyping.  Again, your conclusion is built upon the invalid premise that, since other dev studios alter their game to rake in the Chinese population, ArenaNet must be doing the same.  It is also built on the premise that ArenaNet is releasing content that is based on Chinese culture to an overwhelming degree.  What you fail to acknowledge is that a Chinese consumer will not see Chinese culture all over EOD.  It is akin to an American easily identifying British culture.  

 

This post is based on the validity of your original post.  Your original post is not valid.

 

17 hours ago, EpicName.4523 said:

You are one of those, eh? I really don't have to justify my likes or dislikes. They are there and that's it. When you try to defend your preferences you are admitting there is something wrong.  

 

I beg to differ. You can draw inspiration from something without trying to please a crowd and you can do so in a flattering way to push sales. Look, I will give you an example. Almost every (old) US movie has the typical American Chad hero that is Chuck Norris in disguise. Why? Because the audiences watching this consciously or not want to associate with him. He is "their" guy. Meanwhile, many (old and modern) movies have the Russian bad guy, the drunkard, the terrorist, the evil mastermind, whatever. Do you think someone in Russia would watch that garbage and like it? Some would, if it is well made, but most wouldn't. And that's how it should be because Russians are not the intended audience, westerners are. Same with every type of media.

I had to Google that place to remember where it is. Do you have do to the same for an entire expansion? It doesn't bother me when someone adds an odd reference or addition, what bothers me is entire landmass and setting that is ALL about that.

You keep attempting to push that EOD is overwhelmingly Chinese, evidenced by the last paragraph.  Despite your first premise of your original post being invalid on its face, you continue to argue as if it is valid.  

In the second paragraph, you argue on the basis that EOD is overwhelmingly Chinese.  You completely ignore all other East Asian influence that is plastered everywhere in the Canthan setting.  Again, not all East Asian aesthetics are Chinese aesthetics.  

 

17 hours ago, EpicName.4523 said:

Oh. Sir, you have very sophisticated language. Allow me to point out that Rata Sam and Black Citadel are not human settlements, they have their own atmosphere without trying to resemble certain country that I have already been found out to be mentioning too much. I must say, however, that by your way of expressing yourself you seem to be too far up your "kitten" too.

 

Well then, imagine entire continent of something similar but based on a different culture. And yes, I do understand sarcasm.

 

It is quite rare to find individual capable of actually presenting argument on both sides of something without throwing random garbage. I salute you.

 

Like everyone else I have an opinion. It's true I am not particularly fond of the setting it's true. The major point is, however, the reason why Cantha is chosen and will the game become oversaturated with certain themes for monetary reasons.   

 

And you are welcome out of this thread kind sir. I don't see you adding anything of value to it.

 

Ok, I see your point.  And katanas are cool, so I actually give the devs extra points for that, but 2 or 3 deities and a katana don't change where the majority of the influence is drawn. Yes, the country which-shall-not-be-named

 

I also like the fact that you specifically came to gloat. I made a point, I put forward my views, I am done. Is there any reason to respond to to three pages of text? Is it as if I don't have anything better to do? Clearly not, since I did just that, but for the last time. 

 

Discuss at your leisure or don't. I made my point. kek

(emphasis added).

Focusing on the emphasized part, because all other paragraphs are irrelevant to the topic, you keep clinging to those invalid premises of yours from the original post.  It has been repeatedly demonstrated that your two premises and conclusion are invalid, and here you are attempting  to argue that EOD will be based on China because ArenaNet wants to pander to China.  This illogically-derived assumption is completely invalid.  You base these statements on dev studios, owned by Chinese firms with controlling interest and executing development based on the controlling Chinese interest,, and fallaciously apply it to a development studio owned by a Korean publisher.  This is an over generalization that is invalid on its face.

You proclaim to be raising a legitimate point.  However, all you are doing is attempting to rationalize your completely invalid conclusion.

 

13 hours ago, EpicName.4523 said:

What you like is subjective. You either like it or you don't. How to discuss visuals when everyone likes different things? I don't like that color or that weapon handle or that pointy part over there. Change it. Happy now? But even if I was whatever-phobic that is none of your business, honestly. 

 

Ah, so I have a point. And I see the points of others. It's called a discussion. Do you have a point? No? Then leave, as you yourself suggested. 

 

TBH, I don't care how you express your "kitten", just do it somewhere far away. 

Btw, do you know what OP is? Because if I am the author of this thread and I can cry "together with the OP", then you clearly don't understand what OP means. https://www.howtogeek.com/698508/what-does-op-mean-online-and-how-do-you-use-it/

 

Have a nice day and come back after you learn what words you use mean. 

A way you can discuss visuals is to identify all the Chinese elements in EOD that you dislike.  However, you seem to think everything in EOD is Chinese when it is specifically and explicitly proven to you that it is not.  

Do you prefer the Korean visuals"  The Japanese visuals?  The Austronesian  style?  The Khmer style?  The Tartan style?  You focus on not liking the Chinese style but fail to identify what the Chinese elements are.  You just assert that it's all Chinese, which we are proving to you to be incorrect.

 

12 hours ago, EpicName.4523 said:

I made a post concerning the game. You made a post concerning how phobic I am. Several, in fact. What is your goal by accusing me? What makes you feel you have some moral high ground? Are you an NPC? What any of this has to do with the game? 

This reply would be unnecessary if you didn't, initially, state that EOD is Chinese culture and your failure to acknowledge that it is not entirely, or even substantially, Chinese with every successive post.  It is repeatedly pointed out to you that there are large influences of Japanese and Korean culture.  I've identified the Austronesian influences.  

In further support, Shing Jea Island is pretty much Japanese Shintoism combined with the peak of the Khmer empire and its monolithic constructions, to include the Angkor Wat.  There are many elements of Shinto construction throughout the island and the monasteries are of Khmer aesthetics (Buddhist rather than the Hindu architecture, Khmer did both).

Do you like Shing Jea Island?  It doesn't really ahve any Chinese influence in there.

 

11 hours ago, EpicName.4523 said:

Quote where I said expansion is bad because China. All I said is that I don't like the aesthetics and how more of those could be added to appease certain markets. 

 

I will help you, you can't quote me because I never said that. 

First, I do believe asian inspired themes do not work well with the western themes, that is true. Btw, if I just come and say I am not a fan what would be the point? Who cares? 

Hi,  I don't like asian themed fantasy, k, thx, bye. 

 

Indeed, I don't like the setting. I have not yet played the expansion, so I cannot say if it would be good or bad. What I can do is express a concern that the setting COULD POSSIBLY be too much,  that IT COULD be marketed towards certain demographics to the detriment of the current population. I am not in the dev's heads, I cannot read their thoughts, ok? 

 

Ok, now I am done responding. For real. I simply got annoyed when someone calls me out for not continuing my thread when there was really no reason to go further. Bye! 

Now, you are denying your two premises and conclusion of the initial post.  You laid out the entire discussion of Chinese influence in the initial post.  You argued that ArenaNet is pandering to China.  You state that there is too much Chinese influence in EOD.  Look at your first post.  Also, I've quoted every post thus far.

 

That summarizes your discussion of the original post that stated:

Premise 1: EOD is based on Chinese culture

Premise 2: Video game developers pander to China

Therefore, ArenaNet is pandering to China.

 

Edited February 6, 2022 by Rogue.8235

[Ellye.9123]

On 2/3/2022 at 4:21 PM, Sigmoid.7082 said:

Is this a "why do people like something I don't and why is this thing I don't like being put into the game?" or is there more I am missing?

There's also the transparent xenophobia, but that's the gist of it, yeah.

[voltaicbore.8012]

35 minutes ago, Ellye.9123 said:

There's also the transparent xenophobia, but that's the gist of it, yeah.

I'm actually going to give OP the benefit of the doubt here. It really doesn't seem to me that OP actually has a problem with any of the Asian cultures being used as design influences, but only objects to their use in what OP thinks is pandering to a Chinese audience. The only problem here is that it really doesn't seem like pandering in the particular case of Cantha and EoD, and OP simply refuses to accept objective arguments in that direction (which, again, OP is entitled to do - and we are entitled to think less of OP because of it).

[Teratus.2859]

Because many of us played Guildwars 1 and Cantha for some of us was by far our favourite region in that game.

On 2/3/2022 at 6:48 PM, EpicName.4523 said:

Recently, I was looking at the last trailer released and all I saw was some depressing steampunk metropolis. It looked completely out place and tbh - kind of ugly. An overcrowded dumpster of gray concrete. 

That is modern Cantha for Gw2, the original Gw1 Cantha was far more traditional in design and many of those designs are still present, mixed in with much of the modern stuff.

I share your distaste for the punk styles though, Cyberpunk in Cantha's case..
While I am not a fan of steampunk either, steampunk has been a thing in Gw2 for a very very long time.
Just look at some Charr technology, the Engineer profession and the Aetherblades.. it's all steampunk inspired, some more than others.

On 2/3/2022 at 6:48 PM, EpicName.4523 said:

I also remember the weapons that came with the purchase of EoD. All of them had a distinct...Chinese look. Call it Cantha or Cathay, it is China.

Actually it isn't, it's mixed Asian.
Cantha takes inspiration from many Asian countries not just China.
This was actually a point of controversy a while ago as if I recall correctly, something about China disliking having elements of it's culture mixed with that of other Asian countries or something like that.

Video games are fantasy though and they all take inspiration from somewhere.. Cantha is Cantha.
It may have elements inspired by China but that doesn't make it China, so it's just silly for people to be upset by that imo.

On 2/3/2022 at 6:48 PM, EpicName.4523 said:

I don't have anything against China, but I am afraid most developers have the tendency to glorify the culture they want to portray, maybe out of respect or maybe because they think it will attract audience in said country. (Probably the latter)

There's definitely some truth to that and I am certainly not a fan of certain things some western companies have done to expand into that market either.
The Chinese people are not to blame for any of that though, their government is and their government is the only thing about China I really don't care for.

On 2/3/2022 at 6:48 PM, EpicName.4523 said:

Question is, why do people want to see China so much in this game? Am I the only one to fear the setting will be a turn off?

We don't.

We want to see Cantha 😄
But I am also hoping the whole cyberpunk jade tech element is kept to a minimum.
There are plenty of reasons I fell in love with the region back in Gw1 and I hope that most of those will still exist in Gw2.
I don't have many reasons to doubt that so far, but we will see.

 

[Adah.8371]

On 2/3/2022 at 11:48 AM, EpicName.4523 said:

In a traditional fantasy setting you have some form of medieval society (more or less). You have dragons, spells, wizards, oversized swords and etc. Yes, there are deviations and even despite that it can get somewhat stale and boring after awhile. However, you just know what to expect and you expect that everything fits together nicely in this world.

 

Recently, I was looking at the last trailer released and all I saw was some depressing steampunk metropolis. It looked completely out place and tbh - kind of ugly. An overcrowded dumpster of gray concrete. 

 

I also remember the weapons that came with the purchase of EoD. All of them had a distinct...Chinese look. Call it Cantha or Cathay, it is China. Of course it will look Chinese, but that's not the point. Point is the association I had - these bamboo weapons reminded me of a cheap Chinese souvenir, the type they sell to gullible tourists in discount shops.

 

And I suddenly came to the conclusion that there will be an entire expansion dedicated to a culture that is kind of out of place in a typical power fantasy with an art style on armor and weapons that I will dislike aesthetically. I remember Mists of Pandaria in WoW and when they announced the pandas I was like - I AM OUT. The areas, the music, the entire setting was just trying too much to be China without really being one. And that was everywhere, it was almost impossible to escape. In a world with orcs, goblins elves and undead there were also the fat pandas. The former April's fools joke that came to be for real.

 

I don't have anything against China, but I am afraid most developers have the tendency to glorify the culture they want to portray, maybe out of respect or maybe because they think it will attract audience in said country. (Probably the latter)

 

Question is, why do people want to see China so much in this game? Am I the only one to fear the setting will be a turn off?

 

To understand the fascination of Cantha you have to play GW1. 

 

The story was truly amazing, with a deep lore. Even years after playing it I'm still listening the OST. The Ritualist was definitely my favourite class ever among all MMO. 

 

I believe the fascination is just a surge of nostalgia. To be on those lands again, to discover what everything has become hundred years after the events.

 

I personally can't wait to be there again! And I hope you'll be also touched by Cantha's fascination and maybe it will give you the wish to play it on GW1 😉

 

 

[Forum Moderator.3074]

Locking this thread as it has long overdue it's purpose (OP stating that he doesn't like new area aesthethics, which is fine) and it's getting into the murky area of geopolitical discussion.