Pros and cons of adding heroes in the future? And the difficulty of group content in empty, disposable maps

[Tai Kratos.3247]

Note about the discussion: Thank you for the lively discussion! I do want to clarify a few points about the point of this topic to avoid repetition in the ongoing conversation.

1. This is not necessarily about whether it is possible to find players, or if you are able to find players for the content you personally enjoy. It's about providing consistent access to more content.
2. Heroes cannot - and should not - replace players. Their AI does not have to match player skill, and having a party of players will make any content easier. I imagine the inclusion of heroes as a stopgap when players are not available for specific content, or when the culture of some content is undesirable to particular players. (e.g. dungeon stacking / cutscene skipping / required experience / zerg mobs on bounties and bosses)
3. This is not about helping players overcome content that is difficult, but about allowing smaller groups of players to accomplish group content in lieu of a larger group.

Points that have been brought up:

1. It might harm the use of the LFG system. I think LFG is already underutilized by the player base, but this might bring it down even more.
2. Coding AI is hard. For all the effort put in, would it be worthwhile for the player base? Who would use this?
3. The inclusion of heroes might lead to a loss of community and cooperation
4. Heroes being inherently inferior to human players and providing some kind of penalty per hero (e.g. gold find, magic find) would keep the incentive for cooperation while still letting you pick up a hero or two if there is no other option.
5. This is more geared towards instanced content. People have called out the strain that minipets take on heavily populated maps, but I would imagine that if a map is heavily populated, nobody would be allowed to bring a hero. When there are enough players, cooperation still exists as it has. Heroes would only be present and helpful in maps that have little or not population working in them.

I played GW1 a lot, been with GW2 from the start. Never been big on joining large guilds or anything, mostly playing solo or with friends / family and the occasional PUG. My family and I are actually returning back to GW1 (with my dad this time, which is cool!) and I'm remembering all the things I loved about that game.

 

One thing that has made it difficult to play GW2 a lot for me is that fact that, most of the time, I'm playing solo. There are so many achievements, so much map content, and and so much instanced content that is inaccessible to me and my family because of a lack of players in specific areas. I would totally run dungeons, but I'd be lucky to find one or two players  in LFG at any given time that want to do that, especially with the more obscure dungeons. There are four of us who play together in my family, sometimes 3, and we might not even find a full PUG together (and we might not want a PUG either). We have a guild of 4 people, so all that 10-player content is not feasible. (My dad isn't that great, and no serious group would want to bring him along if we tried. The internet is a mean place.)

There are also a lot of maps that are kind of dead to me, especially with the disposability of LW maps. I want to get some of those achievements, but can't because it's locked behind group content with 0 population with no obvious way to find a more populated version of the map if there is one. (LFG is usually dead.)

 

The other day I wanted to do a bounty, so I called out LFG and made a post. Someone advised me that they saw a train with an LFG post, so I joined them. Suddenly the bounty turns into a 50+ person zerg-particle disaster with 0 strategy, just another zerg boss. I would have loved it if there were maybe 5-10 people.

All of this makes me think of heroes in GW1 and how I could do most of the content solo, or with maybe a handful of players in key roles padded out by heroes. (Heroes were NPCs that you could spec and have accompany you.) I saw someone on these forums say something to the affect of  "the day Anet adds heroes is the day they give up on GW2", which makes me feel there are some strong opinions, haha. But I guess with limited application, I don't see how it can be anything but a plus.

They could be primarily in instanced content only. So you can fill up a party with heroes in an instance lobby or something. (The pre dungeon path area? Fractals lobby? Something like that?) For dead maps with group content, couldn't you allow x number of heroes per player, with a fluctuating threshold based on population of the map? So in a completely empty map you can bring max number of heroes, and then there is a threshold at which point your heroes are slowly removed up to that point.

Heroes would be inherently inferior to players, so there would still be an incentive to LFG. But if you can't find the players for that particular content - or don't want to - I guess the question is, is it better for that content to be dead to you? Or to bring a few NPCs and try anyways?


BTW, not looking to get roasted. I've been burnt here before. 😬 I guess for the way I have interacted with GW1 and GW2, I can see nothing but positives and would engage much more with the game and with much more variety in content if I had NPC companions, so I'm curious what downsides other players might see in this. (Aside from the view of it as a white-flag from Anet / "git gud". Looking for constructive discussion.)

I don't see it as a sign of giving up, because their business model with the Living World creates that disposability inherently, but they bake in the requirements for group play on those maps that will just be dead upon the next release. And I guess you could say "play it when it comes out", but A) I don't have the time as an adult to get everything when it comes out and B) they are still selling this content to people actively right now, content that is basically dead on arrival. So to me, allowing NPC companions would be in support of that business model, increasing its TTL beyond the next release. (Plus, wouldn't it be amazing if your NPC companions were your alts? Just a big ol' army of you marching around the map. I don't understand how that could not be cool as hell, haha.)

Also yes, I know it's an MMO. I love MMOs, never like joining guilds / clans with strangers. I like to explore solo and interact / talk / quest with other players I meet in passing. If anything, having the same dedicated group of people you run all content with also takes away what is special from an MMO which is spontaneity. At least I think so.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Tai Kratos.3247

[yoni.7015]

I am not a real fan of this idea and most of the time it is not difficult to find other players to do events you can’t do alone. So I think it would not be necessary to add heroes in the game. It’s an MMO, you should play with other players. 

Edited February 7, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Tai Kratos.3247]

13 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

I am not a real fan of this idea and most of the time it is not difficult to find other players to do events you can’t do alone. So I think it would not be necessary to add heroes in the game. 

How do you find players for obscure content? There are certain dungeons I never find players for, LFG is empty, bounties are empty aside from a single zerg train that is active (sometimes), and old LW maps from years ago are usually empty.

I guess for me I would find heroes very helpful, so I'm more curious about 1) how do you find groups consistently on obscure content or with inexperienced players and 2) how would someone else having access to this hurt your experience?

 

Quote

It’s an MMO, you should play with other players. 

That kind of sidesteps every issue I brought up. I'm trying to address lack of players with certain content and situations in which you want to stay within a particular group of players. I play PUGs and with zergs in new content, I'm referring to other specific instances.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Tai Kratos.3247

[yoni.7015]

3 minutes ago, Tai Kratos.3247 said:

How do you find players for obscure content? There are certain dungeons I never find players for, LFG is empty, bounties are empty aside from a single zerg train that is active (sometimes), and old LW maps from years ago are usually empty.

I guess for me I would find heroes very helpful, so I'm more curious about 1) how do you find groups consistently on obscure content or with inexperienced players and 2) how would someone else having access to this hurt your experience?

Join a guild, play with friends. Then no content is obscure enough. 
I did not write that it would hurt my experience, I just don’t think it is necessary and would be a waste of resources that should be spent elsewhere. 

Edited February 7, 2022 by yoni.7015

[jokke.6239]

The downside is that it takes away activity from the LFG. FFXIV did it in shadowbringers though. So not impossible I suppose.

I like the idea as well, doubt it will ever happen though.

Edit: With decreased rewards for solo play, it probably wouldn't have a big impact though

Edited February 7, 2022 by jokke.6239

[Sobx.1758]

I don't like the idea of trying to substitute players with some kind of "legal bots". The moment they introduce something like that will be a sign they're giving up on the game, since apparently there's not enough players to find a group of 3-10 people.

 

[Tai Kratos.3247]

3 minutes ago, jokke.6239 said:

The downside is that it takes away activity from the LFG. FFXIV did it in shadowbringers though. So not impossible I suppose.

I like the idea as well, doubt it will ever happen though.

I agree it might, but is your view of LFG populated? Mine is almost always dead. Sometimes I find 2 or 3 players for some content, we sit in LFG for 20 minutes, then give up and split apart. I imagine this as a solve for that situation.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Tai Kratos.3247

[Vidit.7108]

There is some content in this game that could probably be done easily with AI players. It doesn't seem tenable with a lot of higher end content though with the way that is designed. 

There is going to be a lot of people here though in the forums against this idea

[jokke.6239]

9 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

 It’s an MMO, you should play with other players. 

I can play with players in any multiplayer game. Not what makes an MMO for me. The appeal for me is being in a "living world"  😉

I'm a casual and prefer to play alone, but I do enjoy talking to people in map chat and just having people being around me, gives me an experience I don't find elsewhere.

I also do like having randoms around me when doing events etc.

I don't like to be in a party where people are dependent on me to play to a certain standard.

I like to chill when I play being able to take a break whenever I want to etc

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, Tai Kratos.3247 said:

I agree it might, but is your view of LFG populated? Mine is almost always dead. Sometimes I found 2 or 3 players for some content, we sit in LFG for 20 minutes, then give up and split apart. I imagine this as a solve for that situation.

I know I've replayed 5 dungeons ~2 weeks ago (for science!). I didn't aim for any specific dungeon or path (a lot of the time people are aiming for multiple paths anyways), but instead just went through each dungeon lfg subgroup and joined whatever was available.

Even now opening lfg shows me:

2 groups for ascalonian

2 for CM

2 for TA

1 SE

1 CoiF

1 HotW  [...but just the story]

0 CoE

1 Arah

 

Sure, there aren't always groups or people wanting to play it, but if someone has the goal to complete that content over several days then it mostly doesn't seem to be a problem.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Tai Kratos.3247]

1 minute ago, Vidit.7108 said:

There is some content in this game that could probably be done easily with AI players. It doesn't seem tenable with a lot of higher end content though with the way that is designed. 

There is going to be a lot of people here though in the forums against this idea

It was the same in GW1, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for high-level content to require players. But it's up to the individual player to decide where that threshold is.

 

6 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I don't like the idea of trying to substitute players with some kind of "legal bots". The moment they introduce something like that will be a sign they're giving up on the game, since apparently there's not enough players to find a group of 3-10 people.

 

This is already the case for a lot of content. If introducing it is acknowledgement that there are not enough players for some content, then the current response is just ignoring that fact. Or at least that has been my experience.

[Sobx.1758]

2 minutes ago, Tai Kratos.3247 said:

This is already the case for a lot of content.

Not really though?

 

[kharmin.7683]

26 minutes ago, Tai Kratos.3247 said:

I thought someone would have posted this by now, but I couldn't find anything similar with the search, so I thought it might be worth posting.
 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/100164-crazy-idea-gw2-mercenary-heroes-for-instanced-content/?do=findComment&comment=1439579

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/25587-ideas-“heroes”-system-masteries-for-gw2/?do=findComment&comment=25586

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/60081-heroes/?do=findComment&comment=60080

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/33451-bring-back-gw1-heroes-feature/?do=findComment&comment=33450

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/29209-the-return-of-our-heroes-needed/?do=findComment&comment=29208

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/8036-is-it-possible-for-heroes-to-comeback-to-guild-wars-2/?do=findComment&comment=8035

Clearly, you didn't search hard enough.  These were all found in the first page of searching.

[jokke.6239]

If the AI is decent, the big upside about solo instanced content with AI is giving casuals a place with no pressure to learn the mechanics of each instance.

This was huge for me in FFXIV.

Now that I mentioned one of the downsides before I thought I would balance it out 🙂

[Vidit.7108]

5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Even now opening lfg shows me:

Either they filled instantly or this is EU

[jokke.6239]

16 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I don't like the idea of trying to substitute players with some kind of "legal bots". The moment they introduce something like that will be a sign they're giving up on the game, since apparently there's not enough players to find a group of 3-10 people.

 

Yeah man, look what happened to FFXIV after they introduced the same thing, it's totally dead. So dead you can't buy the game 😄

[Sobx.1758]

33 minutes ago, jokke.6239 said:

Yeah man, look what happened to FFXIV after they introduced the same thing, it's totally dead. So dead you can't buy the game 😄

Yeah, because it* obviously is directly connected to this one particular thing and has a lot to do with this thread 🙃

Edited February 7, 2022 by Sobx.1758
*ff popularity boost

[Tai Kratos.3247]

33 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Clearly, you didn't search hard enough.  These were all found in the first page of searching.

Oof, I went three pages in and didn't find anything. Guess I did it wrong. 😣
EDIT: Reading a few of them, some of them emphasize that content is hard, and that's not what I'm trying to target. I'm more about content that is designed for group play where adequate player numbers are not consistent / style of play doesn't match. (e.g. inexperienced players wanting to experience content at their own pace and learn rather than being pressured to optimize.)

37 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I know I've replayed 5 dungeons ~2 weeks ago (for science!). I didn't aim for any specific dungeon or path (a lot of the time people are aiming for multiple paths anyways), but instead just went through each dungeon lfg subgroup and joined

...

Sure, there aren't always groups or people wanting to play it, but if someone has the goal to complete that content over several days then it mostly doesn't seem to be a problem.

Oh yeah, there totally are runs popping up! But often times they are for paths you might not want to run, or more often I just see story runs. I've actually never done a normal run of SE, because every group I've done it with cheeses it with specific stacking locations. I'd love to experience it at my own pace without the pressure to skip all dialogue.

I have no idea what any of the plots of any dungeon is because of the pressure to skip it. Every group is looking for "exp" players to use exploits and stack locations. Nobody wants to sit through dialogue.

EDIT: also, please don't tell me to just read the wiki for the plots. It's just not the same.

EDIT 2: another thing to note is that I don't have a lot of time to play very often. I have time to play games in between life, and am very much at the whim of  "what is available right now" in LFG. I'm more of a casual player. So if given the choice between GW2, where I don't know if I'll be able to do the content I'm interested in, or a different game, I'll play GW2 less, which is what has happened. (I still pay for Gem store stuff because I want them to succeed.)

Edited February 7, 2022 by Tai Kratos.3247

[Freya.9075]

Have you tried to make your own lfg for the path you want? You might get surprised how many are just looking in lfg and not making one. And it instantly fills up. Might take time ofc depending on the timing but what I’ve often seen is when you make a lfg it takes less then 5 min to fill the party. 

[Tai Kratos.3247]

24 minutes ago, Freya.9075 said:

Have you tried to make your own lfg for the path you want? You might get surprised how many are just looking in lfg and not making one. And it instantly fills up. Might take time ofc depending on the timing but what I’ve often seen is when you make a lfg it takes less then 5 min to fill the party. 

Yeah, and I can usually get a team pretty consistently for SE or AC or something like that. But TA? HotW? I really struggle to find groups for those in the time I have to search. I don't know if I'm doing it wrong or what, but I have a tough time. So I guess it's a consistency problem.

Plus the limited time problem. If I have limited time and it takes 30 minutes just to find a full group at the time I want to play? And maybe we find no one and split up? I'd rather spend that time elsewhere, which bums me out.

Edit: as a balance, you could even reduce gold find / magic find an amount for each hero. So the incentive is still to play with other players, and high-skill solo players are not punished for not having heroes. But I'd happily lose a little gold to be able to play some of the content I'm referring to.
Edit 2: I also imagine this will help players experience content the way Anet intended them to. Did they intend for players to optimize stack locations in dungeons? They wrote them as stories and set-piece experiences. Did they intend for every player doing bounties to hop on the only active bounty train and zerg rush whatever bounty is next in the path of the mob? I think they probably meant for you to pick a bounty that sounded interesting from the board and tackle it with a group of players. Did they intend for obscure LW maps with group events to be abandoned? ...I'm actually not sure about that one. 🤔

Edited February 7, 2022 by Tai Kratos.3247

[AliamRationem.5172]

I love seeing thank you posts for things like HP trains and other cooperative efforts by players. It'd be a real shame to replace that with NPCs. I'm going to give this one a hard no.  Easy cooperation is a major feature of this game.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

53 minutes ago, Tai Kratos.3247 said:

One thing that has made it difficult to play GW2 a lot for me is that fact that, most of the time, I'm playing solo. There are so many achievements, so much map content, and and so much instanced content that is inaccessible to me and my family because of a lack of players in specific areas. I would totally run dungeons, but I'd be lucky to find one or two players  in LFG at any given time that want to do that, especially with the more obscure dungeons. There are four of us who play together in my family, sometimes 3, and we might not even find a full PUG together (and we might not want a PUG either). We have a guild of 4 people, so all that 10-player content is not feasible.

A lot of content can be cleared with 4 people.

Within the Open World, 2-4 players can finish most Hero Points, Champion Bounties, Events and Smaller Meta-Events, and even some Legendary mobs.  The larger Meta Events like Drizzlewood, Silverwastes, Tangled Depths do require a large number of players working together, but you do not need to be in a squad with other players to participate.

Dungeons can be cleared with 4 players, but if you are starting a Dungeon path with 3-4 players, why not post in LFG and help other players who have a hard time clearing this content as they may not have the family/friends to help them get it going?

For Fractals, 5 players are recommended, but at T1/T2 you can 4 man a lot of it.

1 hour ago, Tai Kratos.3247 said:

I can see nothing but positives and would engage much more with the game and with much more variety in content if I had NPC companions, so I'm curious what downsides other players might see in this.

Thinking more of Raids and Strikes but, this objection/downside carries over to any content.

If you were to code Bots to be able to join a Raid or Strike, they would need to be able to meet minimum requirements akin to a real player.  However, how do you code a bot to manage the game mechanics for each unique encounter?  How do you balance the Bot in a way that it meets the minimum requirements, but isn't better than a real player?  What roles are Bots allowed to fulfill without becoming overpowered?

10 player content usually has roles for Boon Sharing and Healing, sometimes Tanking.  Is it okay to give a Bot the responsibility to fulfill any of these dedicated non-DPS roles?

What ends up happening is the content becomes trivial due to the Bots requiring a higher baseline output than players to compensate for AI not being as good as a players brain. 

Bots don't know how to get out of AoE?  Okay, give them better AoE protection.  Bots don't always engage the target as effectively as a player?  Okay give them a little more DPS.  Bots don't always stand near players to share boon?  Okay, give them wider boonshare range.

This is the downside, that Bots are never going to be as capable as players, and in order to make up that shortfall, Bots would require other ways to make up that difference.  Smart players would use those differences to their advantage, changing the group comps up and likely finding ways to abuse the Bots.

[AgentMoore.9453]

I think heroes were a great system to have in GW1, but this was primarily because GW1 was almost completely a series of party-instanced maps. GW2 is mostly open world, which makes it a lot less feasible for everyone there to command a full party of heroes in addition to players (See: Miniatures have been hidden because the servers are crying).

A hero system could work in GW2, but it would need thoughtful implementation because of those differences. Right now, the Ranger pets are the closest thing to a GW1 hero that we have (NPC that fights alongside you, accepts commands, can be traited/customized insomuch as you can pick which pet is active). If you could also pick armor and weapons for your Ranger pet, you'd have a hero.✨

Even in GW1, I usually find it more efficient to party up with other players, but it's useful to have heroes for the dead hours, and I don't feel that the two systems interfere with one another. Because of that, I'd be cool with having heroes in GW2, they'd probably just be limited in terms of where you could use them.

Pros of a Hero System (In GW2):
- More direct control over your party comp/tactics
- Ability to practice/test strategies in group content without requiring a party to repeatedly carry you
- No long LFG waits for players that may never arrive to help with less popular content
- Playing on low population off hours? You can assemble a party at any time.
- Those people that join your party and then leave at the worst possible moment? Replaced by a hero.
- You can still play with other people and in most cases it will be more efficient to do so

Cons of a Hero System (In GW2):
- Strain on open world maps (would likely be relegated to instanced content)
- Some people may use LFG less (might be negligible, not sure)
- Increased toxicity among min/maxers who get used to heroes outperforming live players (already an issue)
- Some people might feel it's unfair for others to beat content with AI that they had to beat without AI
- It would require development time and resources without a guarantee that it would be done well (See: Templates)
- Ranger pets are still dodgy (yet not in the 'dodge out of AoEs' way, go figure)

All of this could of course be avoided by simply designing content that's engaging, repeatable, and easy to queue for, but in lieu of that? Hero system sounds like a fine supplement.

[SnackParty.3178]

Far as map content, check for dailies in those areas. You can end up on a map with a commander already set to do Metas. If not, chill and just play the map, usually eventually someone comes, or check lfg. Daily map participation is how I checked off most of my "Return to" achievements. 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Allen.9310

[Cuks.8241]

You can do dungeons with 3-4 people just fine. You can post lfg for 5th with description of how you want to do it but you don't really need it. If someone in your famility is not the most mechanically adept, there are builds that might not be top dps but can survive pretty much anything that is thrown at them in dungeons. 

Depending on your skill lvl you can do some bounties like this also. Bounties scale and sometimes doing it with 5 people is easier than with more of them.

Also have you tried minidungeons for some easy with a sprinkle of challenge and puzzle for some family fun. Some minidungeons are really cool. Forsaken Halls my favorite.

I know this is not exactly what you were looking for but maybe some ideas for family fun.