Pros and cons of adding heroes in the future? And the difficulty of group content in empty, disposable maps

[Tai Kratos.3247]

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

But you've said you don't want to skip. So if the only "specific play style" you mean here is the one that makes skipping available then... you know, it seems 100% irrelevant to your needs or this thread? 

 

...and now you've skipped the thing about being able to just join 4 more guilds for some reason? 😛

Sorry, forgot to address that. My personal experiences with guilds hasn't been great, either with them attempting to make demands on my time (I'm more casual), demanding 100% representation at all times, toxic cultures, guilds falling apart / dying, etc. I suppose I could join a large impersonal guild to use as an LFG board, but that feels like a failing of the current LFG board, and maybe isn't what guilds were intended for.

So I guess guilds just don't match the way I interact with the game, and I know that answer won't make you happy, haha. But that has been my experience.

[vinterberg.2783]

You cannot judge all guilds based on a few samples.

[Sobx.1758]

18 minutes ago, Tai Kratos.3247 said:

Sorry, forgot to address that. My personal experiences with guilds hasn't been great, either with them attempting to make demands on my time (I'm more casual), demanding 100% representation at all times, toxic cultures, guilds falling apart / dying, etc. I suppose I could join a large impersonal guild to use as an LFG board, but that feels like a failing of the current LFG board, and maybe isn't what guilds were intended for.

So I guess guilds just don't match the way I interact with the game, and I know that answer won't make you happy, haha. But that has been my experience.

Right, so any solution there is available, you'll try to sweep under the rug -first with "my guild is a small one, just for family members, where inviting other players isn't a good idea since not everyone there is a good player" and after it was pointed out you can join more than 1 guild... now the family members or new players aren't the problem, but instead it's just you not wanting to. Oh well, it's almost as if that follows the exact pattern I've pointed out on the previous page about your edit 😅 

There are easly way more guilds without any real requirements than the ones with them btw. If the guild is dying, you just join another one (on top of potentially still having the other 3 anyways). Joining a guild to use as a hub for players to play with is NOT "failing of the current lfg", these 2 things are in no way mutually exclusive, you just have broader reach for the players to play with. (and what else were guilds possibly intended for? A guild is not a cult, it's a group of people that can talk/play together, that's about it. And if you don't like one...? You leave and join another one)

btw if you're assuming the worst about the people and use it as a reason to not join any guilds, then how are you even using lfg? Doesn't the exact same thing apply there? Except when someone's being a kitten in a guild, they can be kicked by the leader, so it's... kind of more of a controlled environment than the lfg itself?

 

You say you want a discussion, but it doesn't seem you really do. Instead, it seems all you want is a party of legal bots no matter what. This is not looking for a solution to a problem, this is trying to create a problem so you can play with bots. Good luck.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[kharmin.7683]

Maybe try asking here? https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/forum/30-looking-for-guild/

[Tai Kratos.3247]

 

22 minutes ago, vinterberg.2783 said:

You cannot judge all guilds based on a few samples.

I know, I'm sure there are great guilds out there, I'm just not sure how to find them, especially when I have only a few hours every week. I'm definitely still open to it! I had left GW2 for a long while (along with family, hence the GW1 run) because of these kinds of issues. Since family has moved on to GW1, I was thinking about the possibility of finding some giant casual guild to use as an LFG board. But I'm not sure how viable it is to throw together a group to farm Bjora Marches in the two hours I have on a Wednesday, if that makes sense.

I'm not making this post and not looking for solutions in game, I'm still actively trying different things. But this is just a concept that has been nagging at the back of my mind for a while every time I hit a wall in a lacking player count for certain content. A sort of, "Man, I wish I could do this, wouldn't it be nice if I could supplement with NPCs." 

Quote

Maybe try asking here? https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/forum/30-looking-for-guild/

I'll take a look around, thanks for posting. 🙂

Edited February 8, 2022 by Tai Kratos.3247

[Neurion.4086]

6 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

Yea and how will you know you got a tank and a healer when most classes can que as that just to cut down que times and then not be geared for it?

In FFXIV you can't change class once you check in for a dungeon or an alliance raid.  If SE can do it I don't see why ANet can't.

 

[kharmin.7683]

No need to look around in https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/forum/30-looking-for-guild/

Just post what you're looking for and I'm pretty sure that the guilds will come to you.

[Vidit.7108]

3 hours ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

You were talking about an automatic group finder, and I still maintain that we have that for DRMs and strike missions. If what you are actually looking for is a system that has clearly defined roles that are restricted to specific class and trait choices, then this isn't the game you're looking for.

I wasn't the one who said they were looking to have that system here. I'm saying FFXIV's duty finder doesn't work like the public instance for strikes and drms. When people set up LFG for raids/fractals/or cms (which is a different thing than what we're talking about i know) they are looking for particular "roles". There your typical pug group needs some kind of healer and players want some boons even if they don't know exactly why. What the FFXIV automatic group finder is doing is giving the players a full formed party suited exactly to completing the content they've selected. This is with all those considerations players would make taken care of automatically as part of the system and also the design of the game (with regard to class/role). So what I'm saying is that it is doing a lot more than what the public DRM/Strikes are doing.

The DRMs are pretty easy content that are well suited to just any random five players joining. The strike missions less so. I've had some strike groups fall apart because the group comp just isn't there and not everyone can switch to something that would make it work out. Though there are a couple that are still easy enough for it.

 

[Rasimir.6239]

1 hour ago, Vidit.7108 said:

So what I'm saying is that it is doing a lot more than what the public DRM/Strikes are doing.

No, what you're saying is it's working in a different system that has rather strict rules on what class and build can fill what role.

 

This game doesn't work that way. The restrictions people put in their lfg are player-made and far from necessary (and much less the only setup) to do that content. The way the GW2 classes are set up, there just is no way an automatic system can choose what players to group up beyond "here's five people, now talk to each other and decide who takes care of what job".

 

Even for strikes there is a multitude of different setups you can play, and a multitude of classes with different builds that can do the jobs. Just because a lot of players can't be bothered to adapt to a non-meta group setup (or don't have the skill to do so) doesn't mean that (player-made) meta is the only way to play those instances.

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Vidit.7108 said:

The DRMs are pretty easy content that are well suited to just any random five players joining. The strike missions less so. I've had some strike groups fall apart because the group comp just isn't there and not everyone can switch to something that would make it work out. Though there are a couple that are still easy enough for it.

Strikes definitely can be just done without a specific squad composition. But of course, strikes can also fail with a specific squad comp if there's no understanding of the mechanics that take place there.

Not sure what's the point of bringing up automated ff-like party matchmaker (but maybe I just missed it from the previous posts), when -as far as I can see it- this is not something that can reasonably work in gw2's environment. Many/all classes can play in multiple roles, so creating a queue based on the class and then not allowing to swap it doesn't seem to help with anything here?

 

21 minutes ago, jokke.6239 said:

Your attitude towards Tait Kratos in this thread and your persistence to get some kind of  "Gotcha!" moments has been very cringe to read.

Thank you for that completely on-topic comment.

Is there anything I wrote there that's not factual? Anything I made up? Anything I claimed he did or said, but he didn't? If not, then not sure what point you're trying to make. I was trying to help him get people in squads/parties for the content he says he wants to play by directly responding to the complaints(?) he made. You can think it's cringe, but maybe instead of writing what you've just did, it would be better to actually address anything that was written. It sure is easier to disregard everything in the thread and just go with "wow, cringe" though.

And no, this is not "an attempt to have some gotcha! moments", re-read the last few posts about the guild and see that I'm directly addressing what he's saying is problematic. If you think I didn't, then please specifically point it out, so I can understand what you're talking about.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[AgentMoore.9453]

7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Is there anything I wrote there that's not factual? Anything I made up?

 

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

any solution there is available, you'll try to sweep under the rug
all you want is a party of legal bots no matter what
You say you want a discussion, but it doesn't seem you really do
this is trying to create a problem so you can play with bots

There are more examples, but these should suffice. You're deviating away from the topic of a hero system in GW2 and inventing a negative narrative about the poster instead. It's easy to disagree with somebody without doing that, and I wish you would. Discussion cannot happen meaningfully if the conversation is a series of traded barbs and assumptions where one side tries to tear the other down or imply nefarious motives or secret objectives.

Largely, your opposition seems to stem from the idea that you think GW1 heroes are bots that can complete an entire instance for you while you AFK (they aren't this) or that there should never be a system in the game that would de-incentivize grouping up with other players. Why not focus on things like that instead of trying to crawl into the OP's head?

[Sobx.1758]

4 hours ago, AgentMoore.9453 said:

There are more examples, but these should suffice. You're deviating away from the topic of a hero system in GW2 and inventing a negative narrative about the poster instead. It's easy to disagree with somebody without doing that, and I wish you would. Discussion cannot happen meaningfully if the conversation is a series of traded barbs and assumptions where one side tries to tear the other down or imply nefarious motives or secret objectives.

Have you read the posts before what you've quoted? Seems like you're missing a bit of context there? (all the way from "not enough people in lfg", through "not enough people to fill up from guild, since I play in a small family-focused guild" -> "I won't join other guilds, because I don't want to"/"using guilds as player hubs isn't what guilds were made for and it works against the lfg")

Pretty much re-read the previous posts and read the explanation in the very same post you've just cut that quote from for why I think what I wrote there is a fact. I didn't just write that in isolation based on nothing, right? As for pretending "I'm deviating from the thread", I was still directly responding to what OP said in his posts.

 

But hey, right after that @kharmin.7683 linked to the lf guild subforum and now OP said he'll take a look, so maybe in the end something good will come out of it.

 

Quote

Largely, your opposition seems to stem from the idea that you think GW1 heroes are bots that can complete an entire instance for you while you AFK

Where in this thread did I write anything like that? What I'm repeatedly saying is "play with legal bots", not "afk, while the bots play for you". I'm fairly sure I didn't even touch on the potential issue of those legal bots being "too strong" or "too weak", since I've focused on the issue repeatedly raised by OP, which can be solved through using lfg or his 4 remaining "guild slots".

Edited February 9, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Swagger.1459]

On 2/7/2022 at 3:40 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

I don't like the idea of trying to substitute players with some kind of "legal bots". The moment they introduce something like that will be a sign they're giving up on the game, since apparently there's not enough players to find a group of 3-10 people.

 

GW1 had them, so what's your issue? How would it negatively impact your gameplay huh? It wouldn't...

 

Hero - Guild Wars Wiki (GWW)

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

GW1 had them, so what's your issue? How would it negatively impact your gameplay huh? It wouldn't...

 

Hero - Guild Wars Wiki (GWW)

gw1 isn't gw2. What gw1 had is mostly irrelevant and doesn't serve as any argument for gw2, since they're 2 different games. Plenty of reasoning was given already in this thread (as well as the previous one/s). I think it would be better to start responding to actual arguments with actual arguments instead of substituting everything with "gw1 had it, so gw2 should to", since that's not remotely how it works.

It's a similar concept to trying to say "make automated party-maker, since ff/another game has it and it works!" -sure, some of the other games have it and had it long before ff14 was even a thing worth mentioning, but these are different games with different concepts and different mechanics. "x has it!" is irreleavnt, since the environment in the game is not the same. For example automatic party-finders work mostly on the basis of each of the classes being bound to certain roles. In gw2 "just locking a class" does nothing against changing/picking the role.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Kurrilino.2706]

On 2/7/2022 at 1:30 PM, yoni.7015 said:

I am not a real fan of this idea and most of the time it is not difficult to find other players to do events you can’t do alone. So I think it would not be necessary to add heroes in the game. It’s an MMO, you should play with other players. 

 

What has MMO to do with playing with other people?

 

[yoni.7015]

2 minutes ago, Kurrilino.2706 said:

 

What has MMO to do with playing with other people?

 

If you want to play alone, maybe try a single player game. Group activities in MMOs are the most fun when played with other people. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Swagger.1459]

8 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

gw1 isn't gw2. What gw1 had is mostly irrelevant and doesn't serve as any argument for gw2, since they're 2 different games. Plenty of reasoning was given already in this thread (as well as the previous one/s). I think it would be better to start responding to actual arguments with actual arguments instead of substituting everything with "gw1 had it, so gw2 should to", since that's not remotely how it works.

It's a similar concept to trying to say "make automated party-maker, since ff/another game has it and it works!" -sure, some of the other games have it and had it long before ff14 was even a thing worth mentioning, but these are different games with different concepts and different mechanics. "x has it!" is irreleavnt, since the environment in the game is not the same. For example automatic party-finders work mostly on the basis of each of the classes being bound to certain roles. In gw2 "just locking a class" does nothing against changing/picking the role.

Well, all that is irrelevant. Not like mmos don’t copy different features from each other. Answer the questions? 

[Sobx.1758]

8 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Well, all that is irrelevant. Not like mmos don’t copy different features from each other. Answer the questions? 

I... I just did? Different games with different mechanics and capabilities. Plenty of reasons were given before, including the post you've initially quoted, but instead just went with... "because gw1 had it!". What you wrote there doesn't even take into consideration anything that was written in this thread, including the post you've quoted right now. "Another game having it" is irrelevant. And if you think it is relevant (but make no mistake, it isn't), then following the same logic, the only needed counterargument here is "because another game doesn't have it". But again, this is not how it works at all. You're just trying to skip any previously given argumentation, not sure what's the point of that.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Swagger.1459]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I... I just did? Different games with different mechanics and capabilities. Plenty of reasons were given before, including the post you've initially quoted, but instead just went with... "because gw1 had it!". What you wrote there doesn't even take into consideration anything that was written in this thread, including the post you've quoted right now. "Another game having it" is irrelevant. And if you think it is, then follwing the same logic, the only needed counterargument here is "because another game doesn't have it". But again, this is not how it works at all.

So we should get rid of a bunch of features from GW2 because they were adopted from “different games” that came before it? Hmmm? Is that the logic we are applying? 

 

All that still doesn’t answer how it negative impacts your gameplay? 
 

[Sobx.1758]

5 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

So we should get rid of a bunch of features from GW2 because they were adopted from “different games” that came before it? Hmmm? Is that the logic we are applying?

As I literally said in previous posts, this is not even a relevant argument for anything. So... no, that's the point.

5 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

All that still doesn’t answer how it negative impacts your gameplay?

There's plenty of answers throughout this (and previous one/s) thread. Some people even made a list on the way I believe, so if you're interested in reasoning (like the one you've initially quoted, but failed to directly address), then go back and read the thread.

[Swagger.1459]

4 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

As I literally said in previous posts, this is not even a relevant argument for anything. So... no, that's the point.

There's plenty of answers throughout this (and previous one/s) thread. Some people even made a list on the way I believe, so if you're interested in reasoning (like the one you've initially quoted, but failed to directly address), then go back and read the thread.

If it’s not a relevant argument, then why did you bring it up? Hmm?
 

Still doesn’t answer how Heroes would negatively impact your gameplay? 

[Mungo Zen.9364]

1 minute ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Still doesn’t answer how Heroes would negatively impact your gameplay? 

I believe the answer was

8 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Some people even made a list on the way I believe, so if you're interested in reasoning (like the one you've initially quoted, but failed to directly address), then go back and read the thread.

AKA they agree with the reasons others have provided in this and other threads.

[Sobx.1758]

15 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

If it’s not a relevant argument, then why did you bring it up? Hmm?

...because it was an example directly based on what you've just did in your post. 🤦‍♂️  It was literally an example for why this is meaningless and isn't an argument "just because another game has/doesn't have x".

Quote

Still doesn’t answer how Heroes would negatively impact your gameplay? 

Make sure to read the thread and address what was already writen in it, instead of trying to bait people into compiling the thread for you, since that's not going to happen.

Aguments are already in this thread. Read it and address what was written. That's all.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Swagger.1459]

19 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

...because it was an example directly based on what you've just did in your post. 🤦‍♂️  It was literally an example for why this is meaningless and isn't an argument "just because another game has/doesn't have x".

Make sure to read the thread and address what was already writen in it, instead of trying to bait people into compiling the thread for you, since that's not going to happen.

Aguments are already in this thread. Read it and address what was written. That's all.

GW2 isn't any other game, so if your logic is "GW1 isn't GW2", then for sure we need to reevaluate all the things GW2 copied from other games because they don't belong. Because, ya know, GW2 shouldn't implement idea from other games, let alone from the original Guild Wars.

 

I'm asking you. You provided a nonanswer to that question by defaulting to "someone said stuff and I agree". That doesn't explain how Heroes would impact your gameplay at all. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Swagger.1459

[mythical.6315]

25 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

GW2 isn't any other game, so if your logic is "GW1 isn't GW2", then for sure we need to reevaluate all the things GW2 copied from other games because they don't belong. Because, ya know, GW2 shouldn't implement idea from other games, let alone from the original Guild Wars.

 

I'm asking you. You provided a nonanswer to that question by defaulting to "someone said stuff and I agree". That doesn't explain how Heroes would impact your gameplay at all. 

Or you consider why heroes worked in GW1 and wouldn’t in GW2