A new ranged spec for Ele is simply both undoable and boring.

[volca.7234]

How will you make a ranged kit that differentiate itself from staff and the conjure weapons to justify it existence without gimmicks? I don't see it happening, Staff already covers pretty much everything for an Ele as a ranged option, large AoE damage, distance makers (from CC, backward dodge, and slowdowns), small AoE damage to take advantage of that distance control, combo fields, combo finishers, On the water side we see the repeat of the large AoE and small AoE idea we find in fire but applied to healing instead of damaged (water 5 & 3), Even our ranged conjures already struggle with being not-staff; Flame axe by being 900 ranged, And ice bow having a discount meteor shower and has to reuse the idea of a projectile attack 3 times just with different permutations(1, 2, 3) and only has the fifth cc skill as a unique skill

 

So this Ele staff playstyle of distance control weapon which makes sense since Ele is squishy already achieve the goal of what a ranged weapon for Ele should be, staff isn't range because devs wanted ranged for Ele, its ranged because the squeamishness of Ele necessitate the existence of this play style as low risk low reward unless you know how to hit your small AoEs or put yourself at risk channeling a meteor shower, this is the essence of a ranged Ele and why its different from any other ranged kit in gw2

 

So here is my challenge bow Eles, make a fully ranged kit that is not gimmicky and doesn't intersect with what staff already does with the same consideration of an actual new playstyle which hammer achieves by being a hybrid range where the damage phase is ranged and the sustain phase is in melee a playstyle Ele had no access to before really, see this playstyle map i made to better illustrate my point https://files.catbox.moe/x6bgwm.png (funny how we actually still have more ranged weapons than melee still, but le another melee spec am i right fellow eles?)

To clear some misunderstanding:

1- I don't think Ranged weapons are boring at all, i love my ranged ele builds, i mean a NEW ranged dps weapon would be boring since it wouldn't be much far in game design space from staff or scepter 

2- THIS IS NOT ABOUT IF STAFF OR RANGED DPS IS BALANCED, VIABLE OR NOT. we are talking high theory here, yes i do agree i'd love for ele ranged dps to be tad bit lil buffed or more wish for the game balance to be good again for scepter and staff to be viable due to not having OP options that trumps them

Edited February 14, 2022 by volca.7234
English is the dhumn CM of langauges

[ScottBroChill.3254]

If they can do it with melee they can do it with ranged. Make the new weapon more condi focused and less dependant on enemies standing in a dps circle for 5 seconds to do damage. Boom, different. 

[volca.7234]

1 hour ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

If they can do it with melee they can do it with ranged. Make the new weapon more condi focused and less dependant on enemies standing in a dps circle for 5 seconds to do damage. Boom, different. 

No, melee unlike range is a high risk playstyle since you are in the dmg range of all types of dmg, ranged or melee; so the sustain part of it is inherently more interactive since the "maintain distance" strat is no longer an option for balance reasons

And simply saying make "make it condi" not only doesn't get you out of the  "distance control" playstyle of the staff, but the condition usage here is arbitrary and doesn't serve a bigger gameplay role, Usually conditions are used to imply a possibility of delayed kill "Much like how mirage uses this delayed kill idea to encourage a playstyle where you swap targets with axe 3 skill just before your first target dies from the condi to keep up your illusions at max as a reward", it doesn't slot in the 1200 range playstyle in any meaningful way by your simplistic description.

Edited February 12, 2022 by volca.7234
English is the dhumn CM of langauges

[Fueki.4753]

And having three melee-centric specializations in a row is not boring to you?

In addition to that, Weaver and Catalyst both promote spastic attunement swapping, to make the most use of the 3-key abilities.

Also, Hammer is only "hybrid" range on paper. the 3-key abilities make a joke out of the theoretical mid range on two attunements by making even them more effective in melee range.

[Puck.3697]

The problem is the weapon doesn't need to be that much different. 

Staff focuses on fields of damage which is problematic as enforces the target to remain still. 

So the new ranged damage could be a more immediate upfront loaded damaging weapon with more direct damage on it. 

Now weather staff could simply be modernized to be the same thing is obviously a possibility, but most screeching for a new weapon are doing do because they don't think Anet will ever go back to fix staff. 

People want a new ranged weapon. As they want a ranged weapon which competes against today's weapon designs and isn't a direct DPS loss compared to its own melee options.

We can say "oh but what about staff" but here's the fact, staff sucks. It requires large hit fields to function and to stack doesn't do high enough DPS during real encounters to be relevant. Its exclusively used in support builds right now. 

I've always found the melee + ranged combo to be far more interesting ofcourse but I don't think hammer does it well enough as of last seen. 

I think hammers ranged components need to go uptoo 900 range and that's just the tip of the iceberg. 

Edited February 12, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Downstate.4697]

Make skills ranged aoe that can be shot from behind and make earth melee and use the bow to bash enemies. Next question.

 

My idea from 2 years ago

Edited February 12, 2022 by FrownyClown.8402

[Puck.3697]

Without any disrespect, it seems like the OPs argument is more about complicating the situation to try and swing in hammers favour rather then tackle the core points of why people want ranged. 

Staff in itself is a highly hybridized weapon, it wouldn't be hard to change it to a more focused weapon on DPS elements. And with a strong enough mechanic it would feel unique to what elementalists currently have. 

Virtuoso is proof they can do a ranged specc 

And mesmers a proffession with more main hand / 2handed ranged weapons then ele has effectively. 

The amazing thing is the argument brings up none of the actual solid arguments against ranged weapons. But instead focuses on one that's untrue. Staff is a AoE weapon it would not be hard to give elementalist a more single target / direct damaging ranged weapon that makes it feel different considering staff is basically a support weapon 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Xaylin.1860]

22 hours ago, volca.7234 said:

How will you make a ranged kit that differentiate itself from staff and the conjure weapons to justify it existence without gimmicks?

Onpopular opinion (especially on this subforum) but I do agree with you. Many (bow) Rangers are in the same boat with this issue/expectation. Ontop of that, people really need to realize that ranged DPS will never be top tier DPS aside from niche scenarios for GW2. That's not how the game was designed.

 

I also believe that both Tempest and Weaver actually have great utility and good skills for ranged gameplay even though those specs might not specifically be designed for pure ranged gameplay. Then again, pure ranged gameplay isn't really a thing in GW2. The only thing Elementalist lacks so far would be a DE single target spec. Personally, I would have loved an Arcane Archer that maybe only had access to two Elements. However, this probably would have turned out to be Scepter+.

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Staff in itself is a highly hybridized weapon, it wouldn't be hard to change it to a more focused weapon on DPS elements. And with a strong enough mechanic it would feel unique to what elementalists currently have. 

Virtuoso is proof they can do a ranged specc 

And mesmers a proffession with more main hand / 2handed ranged weapons then ele has effectively. 

[...]

Staff is a AoE weapon it would not be hard to give elementalist a more single target / direct damaging ranged weapon that makes it feel different considering staff is basically a support weapon 

 

First, that's not a Staff thing. Elementalists are designed to be hybrids. Taken the hybrid out of a core weapon would be a balance disaster. It could be done with an e-spec weapon, sure. But this would basically force the e-spec to only use that specific weapon.

 

Second, Virtuoso is a very bad example for a good ranged spec. At this point, aside from not having the resource issue of Clones being destroyed, it offers Mesmers nothing new. You might as well just play Greatsword (non projectile) and Chrono (Wells for area damage Utilities). Or Mirage for the Ambush. The only thing it does: Serve the pew pee fantasy. No new playstyle. And at least at current balance also not more damage. This aside, most core Mesmer weapons and traits are worse than on other classes and less versatile. I fail to see how they are better than Elementalist? Or maybe I just misunderstand your point.

 

Third, single target on Elementalist equals Scepter. If I were to decide, I'd rather see ANet investing time in reworking useless and underused skills on core Staff and Scepter (mostly Air and Earth) than adding another weapon with redundant functionality. Even more so since Elementalist doesn't have weapon swap. E.g.: maybe more range on Air Staff/Scepter to distinguish it from Fire. For Scepter, I wouldn't mind seeing more damage and CC/debilitating conditions (ice) focus on Water.

[Kodama.6453]

22 hours ago, ScottBroChill.3254 said:

If they can do it with melee they can do it with ranged. Make the new weapon more condi focused and less dependant on enemies standing in a dps circle for 5 seconds to do damage. Boom, different. 

I think you kinda described scepter there, tho.

[volca.7234]

20 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

And having three melee-centric specializations in a row is not boring to you?

In addition to that, Weaver and Catalyst both promote spastic attunement swapping, to make the most use of the 3-key abilities.

Also, Hammer is only "hybrid" range on paper. the 3-key abilities make a joke out of the theoretical mid range on two attunements by making even them more effective in melee range.

Yes, because every new spec give a new playstyle with it to ele, warhorn as a midrange support weapon, and sword a new play style we didn't have before

Yes because base ele had only dagger as its melee and EVERYTHING ELSE was ranged, more melee options was a dire need for ele and is welcome addition, in fact till now still most of the ele kit is ranged check this graphic i made to illustrate my point  https://files.catbox.moe/x6bgwm.png i will edit it into the main thread post


Hammer 3-key ability ITSELF is a hybrid range between a spinning orb phase and something people usually forgets ITS 800 RANGE LAUNCH(higher than the 600 range of the other ranged skills) that has a high dmg spike in keeping with the general hammer playstyle (fire and air being ranged dps), It almost like these people who make Specs know what they are doing.

 

 

16 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Make skills ranged aoe that can be shot from behind and make earth melee and use the bow to bash enemies. Next question.

 

My idea from 2 years ago

Not only half of the skills in this new spec do already exists in current ele but the playstyle has THE SAME DISTANCE CONTROL like fire3, air2,4, water4, even earth the "melee" attunment has a distance maker at earth3 maybe the fire smoke field is fun to think about and blast out of with an earth4 for a nice stealth combo, but it doesn't gets us out of the staff playstyle really just because earth is melee and water4 is a stationary distance killer deference the core gameplay loop isn't really hybrid since the sustain on earth is just a single barrier skill, and on water a self freeze, while hammer has a water field on jade sphere a block a blast finisher earth a leap finisher on water a mag aura on combo on earth, an ice aura on combo on water, a missile block on earth to force melee etc..

 

20 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

The problem is the weapon doesn't need to be that much different. 

Staff focuses on fields of damage which is problematic as enforces the target to remain still. 

So the new ranged damage could be a more immediate upfront loaded damaging weapon with more direct damage on it. 

Now weather staff could simply be modernized to be the same thing is obviously a possibility, but most screeching for a new weapon are doing do because they don't think Anet will ever go back to fix staff. 

People want a new ranged weapon. As they want a ranged weapon which competes against today's weapon designs and isn't a direct DPS loss compared to its own melee options.

We can say "oh but what about staff" but here's the fact, staff sucks. It requires large hit fields to function and to stack doesn't do high enough DPS during real encounters to be relevant. Its exclusively used in support builds right now. 

I've always found the melee + ranged combo to be far more interesting ofcourse but I don't think hammer does it well enough as of last seen. 

I think hammers ranged components need to go uptoo 900 range and that's just the tip of the iceberg. 

1-So you are ok with it being samey and boring, huh i thought people wanted new playstyle not same old ones but maybe im in the minority?

2-And no staff having fields of dmg of versing sizes isn't problematic its peak game design, because HALF OF YOUR SKILLS already encourage distance control to make sure the target keeps at bay as your sustain strat, this makes damage fields flows beautifully into this gameplay loop, its litirally one of the best weapon designs in all of gaming, the damage fields here aren't arbitrary they are what slots best into the already established distance control playstyle of the staff

3- Staff ain't broken, people just miss when it was OP

4- Being ranged MUST as a point of balance be less DPS than melee due to the fact that a melee player is in putting himself in the range of every damage type melee or ranged, while a ranged player has the inherent advantage of being in the range of other ranged dmg only, this is balance 101 in games basic risk vs reward.

5- I assume you talking about pve? because in wvw staff is THE HIGHEST AoE DPS weapon still, in pve its utility made the highest AoE healing per second weapon in all the game so this balance between utility and damage is present in all of the ele's kit, its almost like balance is a thing.

7- Again with the vague "i love the idea of hammer but i don't like it cuz uhhhh i don't like it" be specific, this vagueness when talking about the hammer is because 90% of the people don't even understand the weapon.

 

8- An increase in ranged DPS skills to 900 will be too close to the scepter playstyle and will make the switch between melee and ranged clunkier and promote attunment camping by design, already the gap closers (water4) reverse (air4) and air5 are 600 range and perfect to switch between the 2 playstyles.

 

[volca.7234]

3 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Without any disrespect, it seems like the OPs argument is more about complicating the situation to try and swing in hammers favour rather then tackle the core points of why people want ranged. 

Staff in itself is a highly hybridized weapon, it wouldn't be hard to change it to a more focused weapon on DPS elements. And with a strong enough mechanic it would feel unique to what elementalists currently have. 

Virtuoso is proof they can do a ranged specc 

And mesmers a proffession with more main hand / 2handed ranged weapons then ele has effectively. 

The amazing thing is the argument brings up none of the actual solid arguments against ranged weapons. But instead focuses on one that's untrue. Staff is a AoE weapon it would not be hard to give elementalist a more single target / direct damaging ranged weapon that makes it feel different considering staff is basically a support weapon 

 

Without any disrespect, your argument is more about having to not think about basics of balance, and game/class design to try to have a staff reskin rather than tackle why elite specializations are a thing in the first play, to give us NEW WAYS to PLAY our class.

 

All ele weapons are hybridized on the axis of utility/sustain to DPS and thats the best thing about ele's design and why it trumps all elemental wizard classes in all games even tabletop RPGs on that point and how ele flows between them, there is simply nothing like it.

 

I won't talk much about mesmer because im not expert on it and its meta game really.

 

Elementalist a more single target / direct damaging ranged weapon, its call scepter and to has its high single direct damage its sacrifice for balance reasons uhh some of it uhhh RANGE to gets its high single target DPS spike.

Its almost almost like the people who make these things know what they are doing

 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by volca.7234
English is the dhumn CM of langauges

[fixit.7189]

wait, ele has a ranged spec? i haven't used my staff in a long time, melee builds are just way better. heck, GW2 on a whole is melee heavy for all profs, all 8 of my chars are melee based which is quite frankly pretty boring meta tbh. i hope they rework staff one of these days, sigh.

Edited February 13, 2022 by fixit.7189

[Puck.3697]

3 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

First, that's not a Staff thing. Elementalists are designed to be hybrids. Taken the hybrid out of a core weapon would be a balance disaster. It could be done with an e-spec weapon, sure. But this would basically force the e-spec to only use that specific weapon

 

2 hours ago, volca.7234 said:

Without any disrespect, your argument is more about having to not think about basics of balance, and game/class design to try to have a staff reskin rather than tackle why elite specializations are a thing in the first play, to give us NEW WAYS to PLAY our class.

 

All ele weapons are hybridized on the axis of utility/sustain to DPS and thats the best thing about ele's design and why it trumps all elemental wizard classes in all games even tabletop RPGs on that point and how ele flows between them, there is simply nothing like it.

 

I won't talk much about mesmer because im not expert on it and its meta game really.

 

Elementalist a more single target / direct damaging ranged weapon, its call scepter and to has its high single direct damage its sacrifice for balance reasons uhh some of it uhhh RANGE to gets its high single target DPS spike.

Its almost almost like the people who make these things know what they are doing

 

 

But that doesn't change the factor DPS variants of staff and more are terrible, aswell as sceptar. They are miles behind other ranged builds in DPS in real raid enviroments. 

Giving us another melee elite ontop of another melee elite isn't a change of playstyle. 

The balance bar is the average. And staff is below average. Because Anet aren't consistent with how they balance. 

It isn't competitive and generally outside only used as a support weapon it's been proven bad. 

Weaver brought a higher DPS weapon to the table. So why can't we have a higher ranged DPS weapon brought with this one? It makes no sense. 

If staff and sword are alike. Why does sword do 8k more DPS then staff. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Puck.3697]

4 hours ago, volca.7234 said:

1-So you are ok with it being samey and boring, huh i thought people wanted new playstyle not same old ones but maybe im in the minority

This is a very opinon based subject. 

I think hammers a very samey boring weapon. It's melee. 300-600 range on a few abilities does not make it a fundamentally ranged weapon in design. 

Because in physical playstyle you will retain melee in combat because physically running in and out of a fight continously would be a drastic sub optimal playerstyle. 

Hammer is very boring 😂 like seriously. To go from cele ele using 2x daggers at 300 range. To warhorn tempest with 400 range. To weaver being flat melee and jump back up at 400 range.. where's the change in playstyle I physically don't see it. 

The ranged components to catalyst are too small and too restricted to give it a hybridized fantasy realistically it does not measure up at all. It's another melee in reality dressed up to have some ranged components on the box to look flashy. 

But the concept you would stand at ranged with this specc in any shape or form is a false argument to begin with 

If hammer was this weapon with a pure ranged offensive rotation which slams into melee combat with earth or provides Small radius AoE healing around himself with water, to have a teleport back via lightning into a ranged offensive rotation 

I would agree with you. That would introduce a hybridized specc, the problem is it actually doesn't do this at all. 

Also to stack against this argument 

It wouldn't be samey. I've never used staff, it's a unviable weapon. 😂 Why would I have ever used a terrible weapon realistically.

It could be deleted and wouldn't change any experience. And I stated priorly. 

Most people want a new ranged weapon to fix staffs flaws as we don't beleive Anet will ever go back and make staff good again. 

No ones trying to say virtuoso feels like core greatsword mesmer ironically yes I do think your a minority on this based on this. Why would this rule apply to elementalist getting a new ranged specc but not virtuoso. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

There is nothing about how this game is designed that indicates a ranged espec is undoable or boring. The fact that ranged builds already exist prove it. But you be you OP. 

You don't believe Anet can come up with something that will differentiate itself from staff? I can assure you they can, since staff is already a very NICHE weapon for multi target AOE. 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Infusion.7149]

This is a joke right? We already have ranged scepter weavers and power DPS tempest but it's notable scepter has 180 radius AOEs except for Phoenix. There's also been people camping fire on tempest and getting 30K+ DPS. It would be quite easy to make a new ranged weapon similar to scepter in function but more power focused, where it doesn't heal on water autoattacks and does lower splash damage than staff. That way you could have staff full AoE DPS but lower target DPS (hitbox reliant), scepter not hitbox reliant but delayed in terms of its AoEs, and whatever new weapon lower single target DPS than scepter at ranged but less cleave damage (i.e. it hits for less on more targets similar to revenant sword).

In addition, there is nothing stopping Arenanet from implementing fan attacks (see ranger mainhand axe) , ally targeting skills as a conduit for where something hits, or range limitations where it does more in melee range. This would mean in a instanced content environment you could still use the weapon effectively while stacked but receive less penalty when you need to move off stack to do a mechanic. Scepter doesn't work this way because there is a delay on its AoEs regardless of range you are at. Hammer is going to be extremely poor in competitive modes since 600 range is not really competitive with common condi builds such as scepter core necro , any offmeta rangers, condi thieves with pistol, or mirages let alone power renegade.

Example:

Spoiler

Fire = condi and sustained DPS , AOE  , might gain

• Fire 1: "Flare"/"lava Arrows" - burning attack that fans out, 900 range projectile with 1s cast time to emphasize animation --- differing from staff and scepter in that is non tracking akin to Dragon's Claw which has no burning
• Fire 2: "Immolate"/"Breath of Fire"/"Incendiary Bonds" - damage and burning with 240 radius ,900 range and no delays for the burning damage  (7s cooldown) --- model this after ranger and revenant shortbow with probably 1.2 to 1.5 PVE coefficient for this and 0.9 coefficient with lower cooldown in PVP/WVW, different than staff and scepter in that you have a damage skill that has large radius burning; also see berserker longbow Fan of Fire
• Fire 3:"Liquid Flame"/"Bed of Coals" - AoE burning attack similar to staff with fire field and 240 radius, zero delay and long duration burning (6+ seconds) instead of power damage as on Dragon's Tooth (think purging flames on guardian but with less damage) --- 15s cooldown , interacts with Persisting Flames
• Fire 4: "Meteor" - blast finisher and power damage --- 240 radius , 1.25s to 2s cast time , 15-30s cooldown with no knockdown to prevent it from having 0.01 coefficient in PVP/WVW
• Alt Fire 4: "Searing Flames" --- 7s burning in 240 radius if target isn't burning but large power damage (2.0+ coefficient in PVE) if target is burning, 2s ammo cooldown  , 15s cooldown ... this was an iconic GW1 skill
• Fire 5: "Double Dragon" you and target ally deal 180 range PBAOE burning damage and gain might per strike while detonating any fire aura, damaging nearby foes--- 20s cooldown , interacts with Persisting Flames
• Other ideas: "Smoldering Embers"  single target damage that does additional DPS akin to guardian focus if target is burning , 7s cooldown ; "Searing Heat"

Water: Vulnerability, chill, sustain / regen

• Water 1: non-projectile power damage with vulnerability application (see Vapor Blade on dagger) , ideally 0.7+ coefficient per second in line with Vapor Blade or Ice Shards but 0.8+ coefficient per second would be closer to guardian scepter or ranger axe
• Water 2: "Chilling winds" chills and damages target , chills in PBAOE around you, chills around target in 180 radius --- damage , 8s cooldown and no damage delay (single target damage but AOE chill ideally 2.0+ PVE coefficient) ; see Frost Volley on Conjure Frost bow
• Water 3: "Mirror of Ice" hits near you and an ally , chills and slows targets casting spells in 240 radius --- damage , 15s cooldown
• Water 4: "Second Wind" regen/ PBAOE heal around 1.5-2K--- 15s cooldown, 5s Ammo cooldown if affected by resolution, different from Geyser due to being instant and not pulsed and does no damage so would not be used on target as Water Trident would be
• Water 5: "Extinguish"/purifying water party condi clear with 600 radius that always removes damaging conditions, burning and chill (see Stop, Drop, and Roll), heals if burning is removed --- 12s cooldown
• Other ideas: "Rust" slows, does damage and interrupts any signet skills (i.e. signet of mercy) , "Snowstorm" as a mini ice storm that does more DPS vs chilled targets , "Steam" blinds any target that is burning , "Maelstrom" 180 radius AOE pulsed daze for PVE CC competitive with Darkarazor

Air = focused DPS and spike damage , hard CC, swiftness

• Air 1 "Shock Arrow"/"Lightning Javelin": fast non-projectile focused power damage attack for ranged pressure , full chain applies fury to cover any downtime in Raging Storm Trait and ideally 0.9+ coefficient per second along the lines of a revenant shortbow or ranger axe
  ---> an alternative is flip ranger longbow and mesmer greatsword scaling  and reverse it so it does more DPS in melee range i.e. 1.0 coefficient/second in melee and 0.6 coefficient/second at 900 range
• Air 2: "Lightning Bolt" high focused damage attack versus moving targets with no AOE --- single target damage  , 8s cooldown
• Air 3: "Tenai's Wind"/"Whirlwind" knockdown or launch CC , 0 distance  & burning targets take extra damage (kiting skill, 180 radius) , 8s cooldown
• Air 4: "Glimmering Mark" , blindness and DPS over time (see guardian focus but with some AoE 180 radius) , 15s cooldown
• Air 5: "Gust" you and target ally receive swiftness   3s superspeed and remove all movement conditions (movement skill), 10s cooldown in PVE

Earth = condi bleeding, sustained damage , immob/knockdown, protection

• Earth 1: "Glowstone" projectile bleeding attack
• Earth 2: "Ebon Hawk" projectile piercing line attack similar to rev hammer , 900 max range (the slow equivalent to Phoenix in earth magic) --- power damage , unblockable, 5s cooldown in PVE at least
• Earth 3: "Earthen Shackles" 3s PBAOE immob followed by a stack of AOE bleeding cover condition near target in 240 radius (kiting skill)
• Earth 4:  "Stone Sheath" 2.0 or some other name , you and target ally gain protection and enemies near you and target ally receive damage
• Earth 5: "Sliver Armor" applies magnetic aura and does PBAOE damage when you or target ally are hit by an attack (anti projectile) --- also power damage
• Other ideas: "Obsidian Flame" does +50% damage versus targets with protection or barrier to make it "armor ignoring"

On the PVE front , DPS elementalist is semi covered with condi variants and DPS power tempest for the most part but in PVP/WVW the classic GvG lockdown snare elementalist and spike damage elementalists aren't well replicated because trying to spike with Dragon's Tooth/Shatterstone or Ice Spike/Eruption/Meteor is near impossible versus anything moving.

See https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/Build:E/any_GvG_Mirror_of_Ice
https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/Build:E/any_GvG_Lightning_Surge
https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/Build:E/any_GvG_Mind_Shock
https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/Build:E/D_PvP_Second_Wind
https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/Build:E/any_PvP_Stone_Sheath
https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/Build:E/any_PvP_Gust
https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/Build:E/any_PvP_Savannah_Heat
https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/Build:E/any_PvP_Double_Dragon
https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/Build:E/P_PvP_Searing_Flames
https://gwpvx.fandom.com/wiki/Build:E/P_PvP_Unsteady_Ground
 

Realistically it would be scepter > new power focused weapon at range > staff ; at melee or versus moving targets the new weapon should do more than staff obviously. Last I checked you can only get about 30K on staff assuming the target doesn't move from AoEs such as Lava Font , Ice Spike, Eruption, and Meteor Shower.
 

Scepter easy mode version (35K)

----

In the meantime the best way to salvage hammer outside of PVE is probably the following:

• Fire increased to 900 range across entire skillset
• Fire auto piercing
• water 1,2,5 increased to 240 range (match Ground Pound/Earth 5)
• Water 4 additional hit healing splashes to allies
• Air auto increased to 900 range and 130 radius unless damage is increased
•  Air 4 (Windstorm) leap into a flip skill so the movement is optional and also launches 0 distance for more breakbar damage in PVE as there is no hard CC in other attunements
• Air #2, 5 to 900 range
• Earth auto 240 range

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Grimjack.8130]

Its really not about the Elite spec having a Melee or a Ranged focus. Its about your ranged variants sucking. Elite specs give everything on a class a new way to play, this means if you have viable ranged builds you have new ways of playing them, but Ele doesn't.

Scepter sucks and has been turned into a 1shot weapon in sPvP and can only see play on one of the 4 specs thanks to the brutal overnerfing of Electric Discharge. Staff has been unusable in PvP *forever* and left to rot and whittle away with its far too long of CDs and skills that do the same thing but in a different attunement.

In WvW Scepter is especially bad without every nerf that has come to PvP happening in WvW too. Its fallen even farther behind due to powercreep. Staff may be viable in Zergs but even then its not meta and not even remotely comparable to DH or Herald's impact.

You can't play Core Ele as a ranged spec because Staff and Scepter suck.

You can't play Tempest as a ranged spec because Staff and Scepter suck.

You can barely play Weaver as a ranged spec because Staff and Scepter suck.

You can't play Catalyst as a ranged spec because Staff and Scepter suck.

It's not just about if an Elite Spec gives you a ranged weapon or not, it would be foolish to not say that would encourage more of an incentive to be a ranged spec, but its not even close to the only or main reason.

 

PS. Hammers kit is surprisingly solid, and can see play in PvP and even WvW(15s/20s) if it gets the needed defensive buffs, especially if ranges on Fire/Air go up to 900 perhaps.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by Grimjack.8130

[Downstate.4697]

Hopefully this balance thing this summer does more than rework banners and spirits

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Ranger longbow: Awesome, the very definition of "ranged combat".

Dragonhunter longbow: A bit behind Ranger longbow, but strong it its own right. Often preferred over Sceptor.

Warrior longbow: It does okay, better than Rifle in some situations (like condi builds).

 

Then players on the forum act like its rediculous to request such a weapon for Ele, the class that could've made the most use of it with its multiple attunements changing the theme.

 

Also, OP asks "how do you make it different from the conjured weapon" but the new hammer being similar to the conjured hammer (even having the same skin for those who have it unlocked), isn't taken into account at all, and the devs seem unlikely to care to change or replace it at this point.

 

Besides, alot of us were expecting a Conjuror as the elite spec, to finally give some life to the whole conjured weapon mechanic, just as Tempest did for auras. But sadly, it wasn't meant to be.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[skunkstank.6128]

Ok so first things first ... it would be boring to play at range? If you truly think that i really want to know what your opinion is on the new engi spec because although it gets mace the mech is going to be the biggest part of any build for that spec and it will basically transform the spec into a range spec. Also why would it be ok for every single class in the game to have a viable range build and only eli the class that was supposed to represent the mage class be the only one left out.

I mean i agree in part that there is no need for a new ranged weapon but a buff or revamp on staff and scepter would already make a lot of difference in build variety and strength.

[Mik.3401]

I think like an Archanist being able to wield longbow and use only chosen 2 elements along with weapon switch would be cool as hell allowing switching between ranged and melee.

ranged being boring is only your perspective. There are millions of ways to implement it. That longbow idea here took me 1 minute surely if a dedicated class/balance gram worked on it for a while they would come up with some great ranged spec.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Mik.3401

[Sahne.6950]

We dont need another Ranged weapon because we have Staff. XD No we dont have staff... Staff is like fighting barehand and naked...

Atleast in Player versus Player content Staff is completly useless. And for PvE Sword is just straight up better in every single way.

But its k! we dont need ranged! we have Staff ❤️ #MakeStaffGreatAgain

 

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, Mik.3401 said:

That longbow idea here took me 1 minute surely if a dedicated class/balance gram worked on it for a while they would come up with some great ranged spec.

There must be a deeper reason to why they dont make a ranged weapon on ele... because there is SO many good ideas. Either they dont play ele and dont notice that we are  missing a good ranged weapon (Ranged should be the standard version of a elemental caster in my books) or they fear that it wont be usefull in PvE content... as a majority of the playerbase is PvE and they need a selling point for the expansions. They tend to tailor everything towards a pve Community.. i even think they said they havent desigend EoD specs with PvP/WvW in mind... so they officialy stated that...   

Another cool ranged idea:

Trident! Very simple explanation: Weapon will focus on Hard cc via Bubbles that make you float. To completly mix it up Water is you CC related Element and doesnt provide sustain anymore -> various Bubble skills or similar things like a wave knockback or something. You can then use this Hard CC for some quick burst combos out of your other attunements! Hardcc into a devastating combo. A playstyle that we used to see from old Freshair. Theme everything around water (Fire attunement has Lava-like style; Water is water obviously; Air can be Mist or straight up electriccharged water ;earth has some...idk..small boulders being within the water(those skills would be the hardhitting ones because... Flippinrocks in a strong waterstream HURT). These Damageskills would have to be aimed like this one Mesmergreatsword skill or what we have with Staff atm, but it delivers instant damage and not over 5 seconds like we see on stafffields . So we are speaking High CC Skills with skills that have to be aimed, with a casttime even, but with devastatiing effects/damage. This would result in a potentially very high burst damageclass that needs to set up combos with CC to hold your enemy in place. Damage skills will be 1200 range whereas the CC skill from water are 900 to not make it too opressive. BANG! We have the traditional caster again ❤️

Fire and earth would be solely for Damagespikes (heat and flipin Boulders being thrown at you hurt obviously) ; Water is your CC attunement and used to setup Combos ( Bubbles that make you float for example) ; Air would be mobility (idk... skills like "ride the wave"lets the player Yeet 900 Units on a small wave;  and other needed sustain things that fit in the air theme like projectilehates)

This would result in a mobile,Squishy but very Deadly ranged class that has a high skillfloor and skillceiling!  Also it would finally give a meaning to the Watertrait that is completly useless outside of aurashare atm... FINALLY thoese Offensive traits in Water could be useful... They unfortunatly became obsolete the second coreFA died...  I can already see Arcane/water/air builds with trident.... #MakeCorerelevantagain 😄 

In all honesty they should just rework Staff 😄 It is so discouraging to use Staff... for example Firenormalhits dont even hit your enemys... They are not targeted they are just thrown at the current location of the enemy... Anything with swiftness that keeps moving will never be hit.
Staff is SOO OUTDATED and completly destroyed by nerfs and was just left at this stage for years....WTF ANET 😄

Edited February 14, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Mik.3401 said:

think like an Archanist being able to wield longbow and use only chosen 2 elements along with weapon switch would be cool as hell allowing switching between ranged and melee

Yeah a proper melee ranged hybrid would be amazing tbh. 

Either this. Or give us a proper conjure, F5 summons a arcane blade which gives us a new bar of skills built around mobility and burst damage 

[Mik.3401]

51 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

There must be a deeper reason to why they dont make a ranged weapon on ele... because there is SO many good ideas. Either they dont play ele and dont notice that we are  missing a good ranged weapon (Ranged should be the standard version of a elemental caster in my books) or they fear that it wont be usefull in PvE content... as a majority of the playerbase is PvE and they need a selling point for the expansions. They tend to tailor everything towards a pve Community.. i even think they said they havent desigend EoD specs with PvP/WvW in mind... so they officialy stated that...   

Another cool ranged idea:

Trident! Very simple explanation: Weapon will focus on Hard cc via Bubbles that make you float. To completly mix it up Water is you CC related Element and doesnt provide sustain anymore -> various Bubble skills or similar things like a wave knockback or something. You can then use this Hard CC for some quick burst combos out of your other attunements! Hardcc into a devastating combo. A playstyle that we used to see from old Freshair. Theme everything around water (Fire attunement has Lava-like style; Water is water obviously; Air can be Mist or straight up electriccharged water ;earth has some...idk..small boulders being within the water(those skills would be the hardhitting ones because... Flippinrocks in a strong waterstream HURT). These Damageskills would have to be aimed like this one Mesmergreatsword skill or what we have with Staff atm, but it delivers instant damage and not over 5 seconds like we see on stafffields . So we are speaking High CC Skills with skills that have to be aimed, with a casttime even, but with devastatiing effects/damage. This would result in a potentially very high burst damageclass that needs to set up combos with CC to hold your enemy in place. Damage skills will be 1200 range whereas the CC skill from water are 900 to not make it too opressive. BANG! We have the traditional caster again ❤️

Fire and earth would be solely for Damagespikes (heat and flipin Boulders being thrown at you hurt obviously) ; Water is your CC attunement and used to setup Combos ( Bubbles that make you float for example) ; Air would be mobility (idk... skills like "ride the wave"lets the player Yeet 900 Units on a small wave;  and other needed sustain things that fit in the air theme like projectilehates)

This would result in a mobile,Squishy but very Deadly ranged class that has a high skillfloor and skillceiling!  Also it would finally give a meaning to the Watertrait that is completly useless outside of aurashare atm... FINALLY thoese Offensive traits in Water could be useful... They unfortunatly became obsolete the second coreFA died...  I can already see Arcane/water/air builds with trident.... #MakeCorerelevantagain 😄 

In all honesty they should just rework Staff 😄 It is so discouraging to use Staff... for example Firenormalhits dont even hit your enemys... They are not targeted they are just throw at the current location of theenemy... Anything with swiftness that keeps moving will never be hit.
Staff is SOO OUTDATED and completly destroyed by nerfs and was just left at this stage for years....WTF ANET 😄

I agree the staff in its current stage is just rubbish. It seems they indeed hang on to this melee meta as you said. I don’t understand what’s stopping them from increasing the range of boon application in PvE and updating the ranged skills to make ranged gameplay viable. For the former it is literally about changing numbers…

And so this way we end up with eles having to fight with swords and Engis being unable to use pistols or rifles. Like lol

Edited February 14, 2022 by Mik.3401