A new ranged spec for Ele is simply both undoable and boring.

[Jski.6180]

21 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Volca, please stop confusing PVE numbers with PVP/WVW numbers.
You wrote the following:
 

It's only that high in PVE and in PVE you are using it as part of the damage rotation or as a gap closer.

In addition, the hammer right now functions more akin to a 2 weapon class but without the advantage of 900 range on weapon swap, only 600. Nothing written here changes that. Even warrior mainhand axe throws 900 range. Keep in mind your "projectile blocks"are meaningless in WVW especially, the meta is and has been non-projectile (i.e. COR/Inspiring Reinforcement/Phase Smash, symbols, wells, lava font, meteor) and has been since at least POF with the introduction of firebrands.

I tested it in WVW last beta and there's been no change since then, and there's even a test by someone else in PVE, the range pressure on staff is higher than on hammer.

I'm also unsure how someone is supposed to upkeep hammer orbs in any competitive scenario, people already struggle doing so in PVE.

Its just odd that the wvw balancing is bleeding over just soo much to pve for catalyst class over all.

But ya there are some real problem for hammer and realty catalyses over all in pve and wvw! In wvw F5 is mostly a throwaway skill that is more of fields then the boons in pve where players stand still it gets more boon use BUT now its 15 sec cd like in wvw it seems so much worst then any thing else in pve right now.

[Einlanzer.1627]

No, it isn't. This is a silly topic.

[Orijah.3750]

I think it's pretty bad to plainly say it would be "undoable and boring" to make a ranged ele spec. It is in no way impossible to make an interesting and enjoyable ranged spec (or even just weapon) for ele, it just requires some thoughtful development. For the most part, you have one option if you want to play ele with some reasonable range and that is sceptre. Now of course that is primarily due to the fact that staff just feels terrible but it is unfortunate that you have many other, very viable and enjoyable options that promote a melee style.

For the main argument, one would argue that it is undoable and boring to make another bow weapon but they added one to DH and a SB to rev which both have very interesting abilities even though bows already exist that have raining arrows and knock back. I think it just requires some thoughtful development.

posting again because this is just better.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2022 by Orijah.3750

[draxynnic.3719]

On 3/20/2022 at 2:36 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

In addition, the hammer right now functions more akin to a 2 weapon class but without the advantage of 900 range on weapon swap, only 600. Nothing written here changes that.

This. Thiiiiiiiis.

ArenaNet could very easily approximate the weaponswapping on other professions by having an elementalist weapon where two attunements are optimised to act as a ranged weapon, while the other two are optimised for fighting in melee. Such a weapon would be expected to be less effective in melee than something like sword or dagger is now (just like a regular profession who uses two melee sets will usually be stronger in a pure melee fight than one with a melee set and a ranged set) and less effective at ranged than a pure ranged weapon (through a similar analogy), but would be trading that specialised role for a bit of versatility.

This is, in fact, what a lot of people thought hammer was going to be. Unfortunately, that's been compromised by a variety of factors:

1) The range. Seriously. 600 range isn't midrange, it's close range. Every gapcloser in the game can close 600 immediately. The game released with a few 600 range weapons, such as axe on both necromancer and ranger, and they were extended to 900 early on for a reason.

2) They're still really not optimised for ranged combat. Molten End (fire 5) is essentially melee, and fire does not inherently have any skills to close that gap or open it again (unlike, say engineer rifle, which has the tools to jump in, deliver a close range attack, and fly out again). Most importantly, something like half of hammer's "power budget" is in the orbs, which are essentially a melee thing.

3) Catalyst's other mechanics are pretty much built around being in melee. Jade orb - in PvE - is optimised when both you and your enemy are within the orb. Most combos also work best when both you and your target are within the field. So on top of the characteristics of the weapon itself, the rest of the elite's mechanics and traits are mostly fighting against using it as anything other than a pure melee build.

[Fueki.4753]

35 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

This. Thiiiiiiiis.

ArenaNet could very easily approximate the weaponswapping on other professions by having an elementalist weapon where two attunements are optimised to act as a ranged weapon, while the other two are optimised for fighting in melee.

After three specializations that effectively are melee on all attunements, Elementalist deserves a specialization than is ranged on all attunements. There is no need for another "shot" at a hybrid weapon when Catalyst is sufficient proof that Arenanet doesn't have any real interest in trying to make an actual hybrid weapon.

Why even bother trying to hybridize, when Elementalist could simply get a ranged weapon that simply deals the same damage, no matter the distance? Renegade's Shortbow doesn't lose any damage in melee either.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

4 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

After three specializations that effectively are melee on all attunements, Elementalist deserves a specialization than is ranged on all attunements. There is no need for another "shot" at a hybrid weapon when Catalyst is sufficient proof that Arenanet doesn't have any real interest in trying to make an actual hybrid weapon.

Why even bother trying to hybridize, when Elementalist could simply get a ranged weapon that simply deals the same damage, no matter the distance? Renegade's Shortbow doesn't lose any damage in melee either.

Just wait for people rushing here and telling you: "So what? Even if they gave ranged option, you'll still have to stack in melee to gain all bonuses like boons, so what's the point of giving you ranged weapon in the first place?"

[Fueki.4753]

4 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Just wait for people rushing here and telling you: "So what? Even if they gave ranged option, you'll still have to stack in melee to gain all bonuses like boons, so what's the point of giving you ranged weapon in the first place?"

Not all of the game is played in groups and/or melee though.

Even if it's just to engage an enemy, starting the fight from range is massive upside for any profession, especially with the inherent squishiness of Elementalist.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[draxynnic.3719]

19 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Not all of the game is played in groups and/or melee though.

Even if it's just to engage an enemy, starting the fight from range is massive upside for any profession, especially with the inherent squishiness of Elementalist.

Preaching to the converted I'm sure, but not to mention that ArenaNet are clearly working on having more phases even in instanced group PvE content that require you to be away from the boss you want to be attacking. Possibly even, dare I say it, more than 600 away from the boss.

28 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

After three specializations that effectively are melee on all attunements, Elementalist deserves a specialization than is ranged on all attunements. There is no need for another "shot" at a hybrid weapon when Catalyst is sufficient proof that Arenanet doesn't have any real interest in trying to make an actual hybrid weapon.

Why even bother trying to hybridize, when Elementalist could simply get a ranged weapon that simply deals the same damage, no matter the distance? Renegade's Shortbow doesn't lose any damage in melee either, so why should a hypothetical Elementalist's bow need to?

I don't disagree, but the context of that particular line of discussion is that elementalist somehow can't work as ranged because it doesn't have weaponswaps to go into melee like other professions. The point being that attunement swaps can serve that function. ArenaNet just kittened it up with Catalyst.

There may well be some hope to bring that back, if ArenaNet is willing to make some sacrifices and rebuild Catalyst from the ground up. Which seems to be what they're going to need to do to get people actually playing it long term. It really needs to have a more distinct identity than "Weaver with a few boons".

EDIT: I would note that there's usually some form of sacrifice for range, whether it's in terms of damage output or defensive skills. That doesn't mean that a ranged weapon necessarily needs to lose effectiveness in melee, just that it will usually be less effective in melee than an actual melee weapon.

Edited March 21, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Coldtart.4785]

Every ele spec could be a ranged spec if we could just have a good staff set again.

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I don't disagree, but the context of that particular line of discussion is that elementalist somehow can't work as ranged because it doesn't have weaponswaps to go into melee like other professions. The point being that attunement swaps can serve that function.

If they can disable Warrior's weapon swap in combat for one specialization, they can enable it for Elementalist for one specialization.

In exchange, I wouldn't mind attunements to be locked in combat.

In fact, after three specializations with more or less heavy focus on constant attunement switching,  I'd welcome a specialization that focusses on staying in one attunement - which would be rather close how most people played Elementalist in GW1.

And even without weapon swap, a weapon with 900 to 1500 maximum range can work just fine in melee, so necessity for melee combat capability is no argument against a ranged weapon.

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

EDIT: I would note that there's usually some form of sacrifice for range, whether it's in terms of damage output or defensive skills. That doesn't mean that a ranged weapon necessarily needs to lose effectiveness in melee, just that it will usually be less effective in melee than an actual melee weapon.

I don't see how Harmbinger's Pistol or Renegade's Shortbow are any less effective in melee than they are in range. The auto attack bounces might make the pistol even more effective in melee.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

If they can disable Warrior's weapon swap in combat for one specialization, they can enable it for Elementalist for one specialization.

In exchange, I wouldn't mind attunements to be locked in combat.

In fact, after three specializations with more or less heavy focus on constant attunement switching,  I'd welcome a specialization that focusses on staying in one attunement - which would be rather close how most people played Elementalist in GW1.

And even without weapon swap, a weapon with 900 to 1500 maximum range can work just fine in melee, so necessity for melee combat capability is no argument against a ranged weapon.

No attunement swapping in exchange for weaponswapping would probably be underpowered with the way elementalist is currently set up - very few weapons to choose from, most of the traitlines being strongly linked to a specific attunement, and skills being balanced on the basis that you have twice as many weapon skills as most professions.

 

What could work is having two attunements, and possibly linking them to the traitlines you've selected. Arcane could possibly allow you to choose your second attunement rather than having it fixed.

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

I don't see how Harmbinger's Pistol or Renegade's Shortbow are any less effective in melee than they are in range. The auto attack bounces might make the pistol even more effective in melee.

That's not my point. There are a lot of ranged weapons that don't lose effectiveness at close range. Heck, those that explicitly lose effectiveness at close range are probably a minority.

However, they are usually less effective in melee than a dedicated melee weapon.

Sometimes they can play a role in a rotation, particularly when a profession either has few melee weapons or the melee weapons it has are more defensive in nature, but it's rare for a build that's all ranged weapons to be as effective at melee range than one that's all melee weapons.

[Infusion.7149]

I wrote above a few pages ago that it could go back to GW1 roots and have 2 attunement focus (such as air+water which is more competitive modes oriented, air+earth, water+earth which is unlikely except as support, fire+water, fire+air common already, fire+earth common already) with skills playing off allies.

If catalyst was still in the design phase (of course it isn't) I would have said that instead of the weaver dual attacks it could have been fire+air and water+earth if simplicity was the only goal in mind. Instead of how weaver works you'd gain both attunements' bonuses and have F1 water&earth,  F2 fire&air and F3 (jade sphere). Since water and earth are both defensive you would be quite tanky if you ran either traitline while running both you probably do no damage but act as a support. Most people run air+fire for strike damage DPS and fire+earth for condi and water is more or less unused. Right now water+earth serve more or less the same function on hammer except skills are split in two to add artificial complexity. The same goes for fire+air, anything that doesn't blind or CC and just burns can just have vulnerability/weakness added to it.

 

Spoiler

 

Defensive / tanky melee , defensive boons (Tundra attrition theme)

Water&earth in melee (180/240 range) and combine all hammer orbs of those attunements. Chill/cripple/immob all serve as soft CC

• Water&Earth 1 = bleed initial hit , chill/cripple with bleed on 2nd /3rd hits
• Water&Earth 2 = 900 gap closer , bleeding , projectile block with whirl finisher (1.5+ coefficient) <10s cooldown ammo skill
  --->  think of this as a fast moving fissure or tidal wave
• Water&Earth 3 = defensive orb (-10% condition damage and -10% strike damage) with magnetic aura and frost aura, no damage, recharges 20% faster if used in jade sphere
• Water&Earth 3 flip skill = consume the orb for protection + resolution and double blast finisher that changes jade sphere from water to frost field after executing which allows you to heal other people
• Water&Earth 4 = 3 deep condi clear for allies and self + self heal, not part of DPS rotation <20s cooldown , recharges 20% quicker if used at full health
  --> "cleansing earth" or something ; see magnetic wave on focus
• Water& Earth 5 = line or cone attack immob + bleed + chill (900 range) <20s cooldown

Deploy Jade Sphere Water&Earth 12s cooldown in PVE = regen + protection , traited adds resolution + resistance , energy gating mechanic removed , poison field removed because of lack of poison traits , 360 radius

Offensive/ranged pressure , CC and offensive boons (burning tornado  , fast moving wildfire theme)

• Fire&Air 1 = 1st hit slow burning with 3 targets in 130 AOE , final fast hit adds 5 targets 180 AOE vulnerability (900 range) --- see renegade shortbow but with burning
• Fire &Air 2 = high damage burn AOE that applies weakness, 5 targets 180 radius whirl (900 range) , if it is cast on an ally it gives you "double dragon" for double trigger burning meaning you don't need to be in melee --- see renegade shortbow Spiritcrush or Berserker Scorched Earth for existing skill

        --> Think of this as a fire whirlwind , take Hurricane of Pain and add burning more or less

• Fire &Air 3 = offensive orb (+10% condition damage , +10% strike damage)  with fire aura and shock aura , recharges 20% faster if used in jade sphere
• Fire & air 3 flip skill = 5-8 stacks burning (see Photon Blitz  on holo) + PBAOE blind and daze when consumed , double blast finisher that changes the jade sphere field type from fire to lightning after executing
• Fire&Air 4 = 2s daze CC + burning field + gap creator akin to staff, not part of DPS rotation <20s cooldown
• Fire&Air 5 = high damage AOE burning + vulnerability skill , 2 ammo  <20s cooldown

Deploy Jade Sphere Fire&Air 12s cooldown in PVE = 10 might + fury , traited adds 10 might + quickness for 5  seconds , energy gating mechanic removed , 360 radius

Potential gear set: Grieving + flame legion rune
Potential gear set 2 for condi boon support: ritualist gear + balthazar rune
Potential gear set 3 for power boon support: diviner's + scholar or eagle

Trait rework:
* Hardened Auras: each aura you gain provides 5% damage reduction per element, maximum 4 stacks in PVE and 2 stacks in PVP/WVW , no duration gimmick
* Vicious Empowerment: gain might and elemental empowerment when you disable or immobilize a foe , upped to 30s in PVE
* Spectacular Sphere: swap quickness with fury on deploy jade sphere to allow pre-cast quickness and create a clear 10% delineation between DPS and boon DPS
* Staunch Auras: gain regen and stability when you gain an aura (jade sphere doesn't have regen)
* Empowered Empowerment: Might now grants additional power but less condition damage. Functionally changed.
* Sphere specialist: Functionally changed to Jade Sphere has half the cooldown (6s).

Glyph changes if something like this is implemented:
* Glyph of elemental power = no changes, applies conditions based off 2 attunements , not gamebreaking considering primordial stance
* Glyph of renewal = fire&air still teleports and has the down effect for you , earth&water probably should drop the water effect and res 3 people at once similar to MI on guardian or Transfusion on scourges
* Glyph of lesser eles = fire&Air casts fire one, water&earth uses the earth one
* Glyph of storms = fire version due to conditions , earth one due to conditions
* Glyph of elementals = fire version due to conditions (or combine the stun onto the burn attack for PVE), 

In this situation:

• Fire+air traitlines would work although you gain none of the bonuses while in water+earth.
• Fire+earth traitlines would work too since you swap between the two. This would facilitate condi builds.
• Water+earth would not be strong while on fire+air but there's a 10% damage orb to try to make up for it. Soothing mist is 10 seconds though.
• Air+earth would be gimmicky since you don't have burning from fire traitline
• Fire+arcane would be condi focused similar to fire+earth
• Air +arcane would be weaker than air+fire offensively but apply more boons
• Fire+water would clear often but would suffer damage-wise if you try to run some sort of power build. Could work on condition support build such as plaguedoctor..
• Air+water would work for power builds and provide some hybrid support ability but have less damage than fire+air
• Earth+water would be bunker-like

 

This roughly approximates how a melee + 900 range spell-based profession such as renegade , sword and dagger virtuoso, axe with staff mirage, axe+greatsword reaper, firebrand with axe+scepter and even non-spell classes such as engineer with grenades , condi soulbeast, GS+axe power soulbeast. I really wanted to play water+air or fire+water as in GW1 as fire+air and fire+earth are getting old (see https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/107978-a-new-ranged-spec-for-ele-is-simply-both-undoable-and-boring/?do=findComment&comment=1566925  ) but alas we're going to use 4 attunements again. Due to fire and air having damage bonuses it is nearly impossible to have a damage build that doesn't run fire or air.

This would probably be far stronger than a "choose 2 attunements" affair with weaponswap and it's apparent that they'd need to redo three or four entire weaponsets (dagger, staff, scepter, and trident for underwater) for usability. If you wanted to do any DPS on water currently you simply cannot regardless of it's scepter, dagger, or staff (basically shatterstone , ice spike , cone of cold maybe). Earth scepter is rather poor , dagger is mediocre due to bleeding focus and CC doing zero in competitive modes now, and arguably unusable on staff in current state of the game. If you are relying on chosen traitlines and letting arcane be a flexible attunement then arcane should have a vanilla skillset with no conditions and just generic boons and would need them to make a set of skills similar to dual attacks. It could be far better if the attunement choice if based off the specialization trait choices , for example you'd have choices: fire+air (common power), fire+earth (common condi burn+bleed) , air+water (CC blind/weakness support) , air+earth (who knows, maybe immob+cc focus), or earth+water (support?).

You can condense core mainhand weapons' offense to:

• Staff = fire burn, vuln (water) and chill, air blind / CC, earth bleeding , earth weakness ,cripple,+ immob
• Scepter = burn, blind, vuln (water), blind and bleeding ... autoattacks are not amazing and ultimately you would want fire for this (hence scepter tempest fire attunement camping)
• Dagger = burn, vuln + chill (water) ,  weakness/CC , immob, bleeding, cripple ... autoattacks are not amazing

If the only limitation is range then it could just be "if you deploy a jade sphere it channels energy to that point" and instead of the jade sphere itself doing damage any weapon now has jade sphere range but at that point you might as well take the "conjurer" idea and make conjure weapons <10 second cooldown on that specialization (aka fake engineer). If it's to be 2 weapons you'd have jade sphere swap weapons or swap attunements and lock you out similar to overloading or overheat on holo. The other option is deploying a jade sphere attunes the weapon to that attunement until out of combat or some similarly long duration such as 60 or 90 seconds, using a new and longer jade sphere cooldown instead of standard attunement cooldown. Essentially both weaver and tempest net 4 or 6 new skills (overloads and dual attacks for fire+air, fire+water, fire+earth, air+water, air+earth, earth+water) so jade sphere does the same thing (adds one skill per attunement which does more or less nothing in PVP/WVW offensively).

None of this would happen since Catalyst already released.

Realistically the best you can hope for is fix to the QoL issues and the best way to go about that is making  orbs maintainable and moving some more damage off orbs onto the skills, swapping fury with quickness on Spectacular Sphere making quickness reliable and a DPS loss, making hammer cleave/pierce at range for its autos and increasing to 900 range gap closers and range skills (including Ground Pound and possibly Molten End). That doesn't matter much at all for benchmark DPS but has a large amount of impact for usability.

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Gibson.4036]

P/P Elementalist

Instead of staff’s CC to maintain range, focus on mobility for kiting and evasion. Instead of ground targeted, slow AoE, multiple target damage comes from bouncing projectiles and piercing through targets.

How is it that other professions can have fluid ranged specs with good damage, but Elementalist needs to have the “low risk” of range heavily balanced with slow skills that hit like wet noodles?

[Acyk.9671]

deleted

Edited April 3, 2022 by Acyk.9671

[Bleikopf.2491]

39 minutes ago, Acyk.9671 said:

If Anet were choosing the road of weapon swapping and being locked in attunement, then it has to be the 2 attunements you pick as traitline. Otherwise we lose too much with 1 only.

Or 1 attunement with 4 weapon sets! /s

[Infusion.7149]

14 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

P/P Elementalist

Instead of staff’s CC to maintain range, focus on mobility for kiting and evasion. Instead of ground targeted, slow AoE, multiple target damage comes from bouncing projectiles and piercing through targets.

How is it that other professions can have fluid ranged specs with good damage, but Elementalist needs to have the “low risk” of range heavily balanced with slow skills that hit like wet noodles?

What you're proposing is 100% failure in WVW just like virtuoso. Projectiles on the entire weapon just don't work. In addition, if dagger on air and earth was made 400 or 600 range, hammer in its current state wouldn't make any sense at all even if the entirety was 600 range. Evasion is present on sword and tends to not be sped up by quickness ; we technically have the evasive playstyle already.

Currently:

• Sword = 130 range effectively
• Dagger = 240 to 600 (on water auto and leap) but mostly 240 to 400 as earth is 300 range
• Hammer = 600 range maximum with 130 and 240 on water and earth , the only thing above  600 is the Grand Finale which is 800
• Scepter = 900 range
• Staff = 1200 range

Looking at the weapons elementalist doesn't have:

• Axe (ranged on necro)
• Mace (melee)
• Pistol (ranged only for every class)
• Shield (offhand)
• Torch (offhand)
• Greatsword (ranged on mesmer)
• Longbow (ranged only for every class)
• Rifle  (ranged only for every class)
• Shortbow (ranged only for every class)

Hammer was probably the correct weapon since it can be used in melee or ranged already (even when it is a melee autoattack as on guardian or warrior), greatsword is far too popular already for other classes. Shortbow in melee doesn't make sense even if I would have taken a shortbow as well, but shortbow tends to be projectile. Hammer could have been similar to revenant hammer when used at range but instead of throwing hammers conjuring spells through it or just line and cone attacks such as on warrior or guardian.

Hammer in its original iteration had 200 radius on the orbs, if it were pulsing instead of projectile that would have been fine provided it wasn't that difficult to maintain the orb. Right now it's balanced based on the orb hitting which means that the entire weapon could have been 600-800 ranged and it still would be kept in check by the orb mechanic doing damage only in melee level ranges.

[Gibson.4036]

On 3/24/2022 at 11:41 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

What you're proposing is 100% failure in WVW just like virtuoso. Projectiles on the entire weapon just don't work. In addition, if dagger on air and earth was made 400 or 600 range, hammer in its current state wouldn't make any sense at all even if the entirety was 600 range. Evasion is present on sword and tends to not be sped up by quickness ; we technically have the evasive playstyle already.

Currently:

• Sword = 130 range effectively
• Dagger = 240 to 600 (on water auto and leap) but mostly 240 to 400 as earth is 300 range
• Hammer = 600 range maximum with 130 and 240 on water and earth , the only thing above  600 is the Grand Finale which is 800
• Scepter = 900 range
• Staff = 1200 range

Looking at the weapons elementalist doesn't have:

• Axe (ranged on necro)
• Mace (melee)
• Pistol (ranged only for every class)
• Shield (offhand)
• Torch (offhand)
• Greatsword (ranged on mesmer)
• Longbow (ranged only for every class)
• Rifle  (ranged only for every class)
• Shortbow (ranged only for every class)

Hammer was probably the correct weapon since it can be used in melee or ranged already (even when it is a melee autoattack as on guardian or warrior), greatsword is far too popular already for other classes. Shortbow in melee doesn't make sense even if I would have taken a shortbow as well, but shortbow tends to be projectile. Hammer could have been similar to revenant hammer when used at range but instead of throwing hammers conjuring spells through it or just line and cone attacks such as on warrior or guardian.

Hammer in its original iteration had 200 radius on the orbs, if it were pulsing instead of projectile that would have been fine provided it wasn't that difficult to maintain the orb. Right now it's balanced based on the orb hitting which means that the entire weapon could have been 600-800 ranged and it still would be kept in check by the orb mechanic doing damage only in melee level ranges.

Does every weapon need to be viable in Zerg WvW?

And it doesn’t need to be every skill that is a projectile.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Infusion.7149]

16 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Does every espec need to be viable in Zerg WvW?

Unless your hypothetical double pistols does more than a melee weapon or at least on par with shortbow ranger it probably won't be used in PVE since unlike other specs that you can swap weapons on elementalist cannot. A pistol ele with range would not be allowed burst on par with scepter fresh air, I'm rather certain of this : there would probably some baked in limitation akin to how blowtorch on engineer works. If it does as much DPS as a shortbow ranger and needs 4 attunements to achieve that it would be a failure even in concept. We have scourge doing 37K on a single weaponset.

Unless it isn't reflected nearly entirely it won't pick up in PVP either for the same reason. If I'm on the quintessential range class (ranger) with axe mainhand or longbow I can swap to greatsword. Same with thieves on pistols (though most run specter scepter now), holosmiths with grenades or rifle, staff mirages, shortbow renegades, and so on. This is why virtuoso is one of the least liked specs in EOD as far as competitive modes : bladesongs and daggers are projectile. Warrior is rarely seen with ranged weapons outside of condi BS in PVE and it would be foolish to suggest warrior doesn't weaponswap.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[The Boz.2038]

13 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

there would probably some baked in limitation akin to how blowtorch on engineer works. If it does as much DPS as a shortbow ranger and needs 4 attunements to achieve that it would be a failure even in concept

A lot of mechanics can be made that makes it "perform best in melee", as all the others do, while still not being useless at range. Some kind of resource regain if <300, for example.

[Infusion.7149]

5 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

A lot of mechanics can be made that makes it "perform best in melee", as all the others do, while still not being useless at range. Some kind of resource regain if <300, for example.

That's a dangerous road to head on since if it's similar to dragon's claw , dagger bladecall on virtuoso (projectile), poison volley on ranger (projectile), splitblade on ranger (projectile), or dark barrage on harbinger (projectile as well) it's effectively melee but with the projectile disadvantage since pistols typically are projectile almost entirely. Of course perhaps the spread can be far narrower or the range limitation for PVE acts as blowtorch does but it doesn't change the fact that it will be mainly be used in melee ranges. The mechanism of range limitation would need to be similar to Blunderbuss on rifle engineer (which isn't projectile) , to avoid a fresh air scepter scenario if skills are akin to other classes (pistol usually doesn't AOE with damage over time but applies conditions). If you look at a non-projectile focused weapon such as hammer on revenant (auto is still projectile) or greatsword on mesmer the high damage is intermittent and on 10+ cooldown generally in competitive modes. Something such as axe or scepter on necromancer relies on conditions or is single target at range ; guardian staff and scepter use symbols for damage over time; specter scepter is single target.

Not to mention 900 range of the typical pistol skills puts it in almost as much danger as 600 range hammer (with respect to competitive modes). In that case, 900 range shortbow with a current condition focus across multiple specs would be more fitting since it has AoEs on thief and renegade. Pistol is typically fully projectile and 900 range elementalist scepter in competitive modes is rarely condi. Conjure Frostbow is 900 range though so that is probably why elementalists don't have a 900 range shortbow as a new spec. If it were 1200 range longbow (or rifle) then you'd have a dilemma in that it would need to be condition focused as well to differentiate it from staff (water and air on staff don't really multi-hit nor apply damage conditions). Both rifle and longbow are slow feeling weapons (whether it is cast time or travel time) so even if it were a condition weapon the playstyle would feel too similar to staff. At least in PVE, condi scepter is a current variation on condi weaver while condi tempest uses dagger typically.

At least tomorrow's catalyst patch will make Phase Shifted more bearable. Changes to the 600 ranged attunements include:

Singeing Strike (Fire auto): Damage coefficient increased from 0.67 to 0.9 in PvE only.   +34%  , ~12K DPS auto-ing since it has burning
---> moves it to be in line with current hammer auto on water and above scepter on fire if you aren't using condition damage
---> in comparison to other classes it would be above 900 range guardian scepter at least (which is also single target auto)

Surging Flames (Fire #2): Damage coefficient increased from 1.5 to 1.8 in PvE only.  +20%

Wind Slam (Air auto): Damage coefficient increased from 0.72 to 0.9 in PvE only.  +25%  , ~11K to 12K DPS auto-ing
---> still 600 range single target

Hurricane of Pain (Air #2): Damage coefficient per strike increased from 0.513 to 0.6 (9 strikes). +17%
---> Given the cast time of 3s (2s under quickness) this becomes around 2.7 coefficient per second of cast time with quickness

[The Boz.2038]

...so you want a full on 40k DPS build with 900 range?

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

5 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

...so you want a full on 40k DPS build with 900 range?

1500 range and 50k DPS and we have an agreement.

[Dezember.1295]

Quote

"How will you make a ranged kit that differentiate itself from staff and the conjure weapons to justify it existence without gimmicks?"

 

There are tons of ways of doing a fun and unique long-range build for elementalists. :]

The first and most obvious one (to me) would be giving elementalists the longbow - because elementalists makes for a very good candidate for the "Arcane Archer"-archetype. :] In general it could be less AoE oriented than the staff, less stand-in-bad-circle-oriented and more of a caster-style, singletarget / piercing targets (while of course including AoE with but with more of a instant explosive feeling rather than just "hail of projectiles"-style :]) Could always include fun fields depending on the element to give it some party synergy aspects! It would certainly be a lot more different from the other available LB builds.

For a more DPS oriented long-range build I'd go with the following on top of my head (think of it more as suggestions for the *style*/*archetypes* than actual "these are the abilities I'd give the Elementalist Archer"):

Fire attunement - fire arrows that apply burning and with a slight AoE explosion (that deals strike damage) on impact, more AoE oriented build with fire ball-esque feeling (D&D fire ball, not MMO-fire ball - translation: meaning big AoE explosion, not a tiny bolt of fire).
Air attunement - rapid attacks that pierce, more piercing abilities with one or two evasive abilities and movement speed buffs, and as such - a more mobile playstyle. Deals (much) less damage than fire (and earth below).
Earth attunement - heavy projectiles that hit hard and possibly apply bleeding, but do not pierce nor explode. Access to one knock-back ability, but no mobility abilities (outside of possible utilities). Slowest attack speed out of the 4 types. Great for single-target encounters that do not require a lot of mobility.
Water attunement - Icy projectiles that do not pierce. Access to fields that apply chilled effects and a bit of CC in terms of slows and enough hard-CC to make up for the fact that the only other element with hard CC is Earth. Focused more on "peeling" in PvP/WvW and defiance bar breaking in PvE.

The reason I specialized each attunement is to *not encourage constant swapping* - as I've understood things, elementalists already have enough specs that relies on being played like a piano-rotation... A spec that relies more on staying in a certain attunement until the situation requires another type would be an easier and more traditional caster spec, while still holding the feeling of being at least slightly versatile and useful in different situations. c:

Other than that, I can think of a lot of fun things they could do with stuff like Focus in main hand for a even more "traditional" caster style, *if* the Elementalist community wouldn't want a LB for whatever reason. c: A focus in mainhand could also open up for good hybrid builds, giving access to both supportive and/or damaging builds. :D

[Infusion.7149]

13 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

...so you want a full on 40k DPS build with 900 range?

If you are referring to what I wrote, that is not what I meant. I mean that weaver on a condi scepter build with 2 attunements (fire+earth) can do 35K DPS of the 39K DPS at range and 33K is possible on scepter condi tempest on fire, so fundamentally the only way you would have a different weapon with 900 range is if it had AoE cleave and wasn't subject to reflects. It would need to be at least 33K DPS single target at range to even remotely competitive with shortbow rangers or condi scourges for example ; specter right now is ~40K with allies on 900 range scepter and the only melee skills are on shroud #4. The way you would balance it without having projectiles is more damage in melee , catalyst in PVP/WVW right now is using this mechanism of balance since the hammer orbs still do damage in PVP/WVW.