How has outnumbered impacted defenders?

[TheGrimm.5624]

 ANet assumed only pip hunters fought outnumbered but I worry about the number of people that would also play outnumbered given more incentive even if they couldn't win. We fear the AFKer in WvW even if we don't in PvE. But to me and others I know outnumbered at least meant your time wasn't wasted if you fought and failed while against the odds. But the trend seems to be if outnumbered, vacate the map and let them roll it, since now its even more pointless. What are you seeing?

[Sahne.6950]

same here.

There is certain maps completly abandoned by the whole server. And the remaining players stack on another map.

Outnumbered = people leave the map

Edited February 14, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Aeolus.3615]

WvW is pointless to  start with, its just a ktrain for fake pvp'er groups, they dont fight if they dont outmaned targets most time and if loose on same size battles they altf+4 or go ktrain a empty map while they loose everything in that map where batle was lost.,

 

[Sahne.6950]

3 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

WvW is pointless to  start with, its just a ktrain for fake pvp'er groups, they dont fight if they dont outmaned targets most time and if loose on same size battles they altf+4 or go ktrain a empty map while they loose everything in that map where batle was lost.,

 

bit harsh D:

you find your occasional roamers also :D

[Aeolus.3615]

2 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

bit harsh D:

you find your occasional roamers also :D

Not in NA, and  when theres 2 zergs both atack smaller one, and then ktrain  diferent maps, or blob ignores their map cause they are ktraining in some other map.

Theres also the strong factor that alot of huge guilds will only play if they can outman 2 servers.

I cant reccall when i had decent fights in wvw in 1st place like 2018 maybe??

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Sahne.6950]

Just now, Aeolus.3615 said:

Not in NA, and  when theres 2 zergs both atack smaller one, and then ktrain  diferent maps.

I cant reccall when i had decent fights in wvw in 1st place like 2018 maybe??

 

never played in NA 😕

but atleast on EU T2 and T1 servers there are a few, especially FoW has a Shitload of roamers^^

[Aeolus.3615]

4 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

never played in NA 😕

but atleast on EU T2 and T1 servers there are a few, especially FoW has a Shitload of roamers^^

NA wvw is pure PVD.. lots vs none, been like this for most part since 2015-2016.

 During prime time is queue of minstrells vs queue of minsterlls lol.... minstrells mesmers, fb, scrappers, warriors, druids..

 

WvW and its gameplay imo is in a horrible state...

Edited February 14, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Sahne.6950]

12 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

NA wvw is pure PVD.. lots vs none, been like this for most part since 2015-2016.

 During prime time is queue of minstrells vs queue of minsterlls lol.... minstrells mesmers, fb, scrappers, warriors, druids..

 

WvW and its gameplay imo is in a horrible state...

AHH SAGDE. I know that you are not talking crap and i know your a man that knows what hes talking about... sorry to hear that. In EU atleast you can have some fun moments... till last relink we were linked with FoW(we were hella overstacked... ) There was almost Queue on every map and yet just a single Commandertag on all of them... 1 Big blob and the rest was roamers. Elonareach has quite a few also. Atm i cant really complain honestly ^_^

But coming back to the topic:  The Outnumbered changes was THE WORST thing that has happend to WvW recently...  Outnumbered was always something people would shout in chat and make people join that map. Nowadays noone calls it out because there is no incentive to go to that map anymore. Which results in even less balanced fights on these maps.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Aeolus.3615]

6 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

(..)

But coming back to the topic:  The Outnumbered changes was THE WORST thing that has happend to WvW recently...  Outnumbered was always something people would shout in chat and make people join that map. Nowadays noone calls it out because there is no incentive to go to that map anymore. Which results in even less balanced fights on these maps.

Wow... it never worked like that in NA... more players actually searching for pip and asking for others to move if pip from outnumbered is gone... its a bit of meme situation but its somethign that would happen.

Enemy blobs here also tend to have alternate accounts on other servers to sabotage even if they are facing just 5-1 0 players.

Its more lamerwars than guild wars :(

Edited February 14, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Sahne.6950]

6 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Wow... it never worked like that in NA... more players actually searching for pip and asking for others to move if pip from outnumbered is gone...

Sad. Never witnessed something like that 😧

There was your occasional : guys dont come i like my piperinos! But that is just a joke from them at best.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Strider Pj.2193]

So..  as of now an effectively 50-50 split.  7 people wouldn’t stay, 7 would (depending).

Update:  now it’s 32 would defend and 14 won’t.  
 

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Strider Pj.2193
Updating current poll results

[Dawdler.8521]

I am mostly just wondering how the two things relate. It was only pips that got removed and you dont get pips for defending. You never got that.

Quite the contrary, the way you maintained outnumbered was to annoy the enemy objectives so they had to keep a large presence (and preferably bring in a border zerg when you pretend to be serious).

[Shining One.1635]

51 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

I am mostly just wondering how the two things relate. It was only pips that got removed and you dont get pips for defending. You never got that.

They also removed participation from repairing. Defending against overwhelming numbers is likely to lead to a net loss in participation unless you're on EBG, where successful or failed defend events will give you 10 minutes.

[TheGrimm.5624]

5 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Wow... it never worked like that in NA... more players actually searching for pip and asking for others to move if pip from outnumbered is gone... its a bit of meme situation but its somethign that would happen.

Enemy blobs here also tend to have alternate accounts on other servers to sabotage even if they are facing just 5-1 0 players.

Its more lamerwars than guild wars 😞

 

In NA at least the server I am on or linked to, we typically saw that if people linked outnumbered some people would shift if there were reports on numbers or objectives getting attacked after, but seeing more if you are outnumbered, its over for that map.

[aspirine.6852]

Outnumbered on red border is the worst probably. You know nobody will come..

[Xenesis.6389]

Yes I defend no matter the situation, there are many times when I got off one disable or killed their siege with cannon or mortar, and that alone was enough to chase a zerg off. Rewards have nothing to do with my decisions to defend something, I play, I get participation, I still get rewards.

I stop when I see it's a boon blob and my side cannot/willnot match it, then it's whatever, watch my teammates get farmed, back cap, or leave the map.

[Dawdler.8521]

4 hours ago, Shining One.1635 said:

They also removed participation from repairing. Defending against overwhelming numbers is likely to lead to a net loss in participation unless you're on EBG, where successful or failed defend events will give you 10 minutes.

Well that I can understand, although I've never personally dropped participation just because I couldnt repair. But outnumbered still give 50% more participation than not being outnumbered.

[coro.3176]

Yeah.. outnumbered is more of a scouting aid when it's quiet. It lets you know a big enemy force has entered the map at some point before the last 5-minute tick.

Is anyone really playing WvW for the rewards at this point?

[subversiontwo.7501]

I think this is actually an interesting topic, however (and I've gone on about this before), I think the survey or whatever discussion you are looking to get out of it has two pretty significant flaws: What defending implies is not defined and any example of "successful" or "good" defending is generally missing or sparse.

I think those things are pretty important given what has been argued on this forum in the past regarding balance issues in defending, larger discussions about defending's place or role in the mode and its history, or that the examples that could help bring a more sensible and rooted perspective on defending do present not themselves in the same way as they do in most other types of (sub-) content in WvW (we have general examples of 25-man raiding, 15-man skirmishing, 5-man roaming and so on that simply has no counterpart in any loose definition of defending).

Why bring that up? Because I don't think there is very much contention about incentives to defend, but rather about when, why or how it was done or ceased to be done. Some people argue rewards, others balance and furthermore some argue larger issues like ladder, coverage and PPK/PPT divide. Grimm's phrasing here muddles those things as well because on the one hand it is about rewards (outnumbered) on the other hand it is about balance, ability and content production (staying to fight).

If anyone has seen me take part in discussing these things before you can see that I am firmly in the third camp: That, while yes there are few examples and little incentive to defending, I find it to be apart of a larger picture of coverage- and population balance having detached a sense of winning from the game mode. Defending (PPT) has always been more sensitive to those issues than things like raiding, skirmishing or roaming (primarily PPK) is. So it's historical and global in how most good examples examples of such groups having quit a long time ago because of the population balance issues than it has to do with more local issues of balance or rewards.

So, like others have likely already mentioned, I don't tend to consider outnumbered ever having any larger impact on a staying-to-fight definition of defending and I tend not to consider things like just camping an AC or dumping stocked supplies into walls to be staying to fight. They may fit a loose definition of defending, but not any example of successful or good defending that could be narrowed down to fighting and relate to well established examples seen in other types of content. If someone could define and exemplify some generally well-regarded "defenders" then their impressions of this would be more worth discussing.

Ed. If this is about other people's behaviour (ie., if a public group comes to defend or not) that doesn't really have anything to do with anything. Other people's behaviour does not have to be good, make sense or be controlled by you. There's little point fretting over that and just better to look at what you can possibly do, with some friends. There are as many different reasons for other players' behaviour as there are players and groups. It won't generalize.

Edited February 14, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[ArchonWing.9480]

Usually I just throw a disabler and leave if it seems like nobody will defend. But that's always been the case. Ever since I hit mithril rank, pips fill out easily enough that these things are non-issues that do not affect decision making and even less since diamond.

Edited February 14, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Veeber.3192]

As someone who's on a server that will probably defend 5% of the time, I still do the same as I did before the Outnumbered change.

Defend hbl with less then 10 people while /T is spammed, realise cmdrs want to defend paper tower on another bl , sit in spawn until everything is capped, wait 10 mins and recap everything!

[Kylden Ar.3724]

20 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

same here.

There is certain maps completly abandoned by the whole server. And the remaining players stack on another map.

Outnumbered = people leave the map

 

Yep, it's now used as the "Go look for easier fights" indicator by many commanders.

[Zekent.3652]

Since they nerfed the outnumbered rewards, i don't even play those maps.

[TheGrimm.5624]

9 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

I think this is actually an interesting topic, however....

 

You have a lot of good points here, its just 130 AM and a bit late to go too far into them. Will re-address once I get some sleep. You tend to make good points and wanted to say saw this but should type up replies after coffee versus "0'dark shouldn't be in the forums right now" time. 🙂

[TheGrimm.5624]

For, against, indifferent. Appreciate any and everyone voting or dropping replies. I am worried that the decision to change outnumbered wasn't considered from all angels but more from the angle of people trying to farm the system and afk farmers. I am worried that the concern to address these few impacted map populations and the flow of players across maps when they aren't all full. For background I was on SoR way back when they fell from T1 all the way to T8 as the server crashed and there were just a few of us per map trying our best to hold/take ground (stupidly) while outnumbered but we tried anyway. Not there now, but still too often now will ask my havoc to try and keep bigger sides engaged since it means that many more distracted by us and am too often interested in holding ground when we have little hope to do so. Have full leggy gear after all these years but its tough to ask others to try and die over and over again to hold without any progress when its easier to just jump to take versus stand against a larger side and try and hold. To me, its more about the imbalance between risk versus reward. Its still easy to take but much harder to hold. That's the issue I have with outnumbered changes is each change made against defending impacts defending over all. Odds are if you have to defend you will already have lower numbers because a side looking to take will tend to target an objective that they can take because it doesn't have said defenders. So until we nerf taking without defense else add more to defending and/or reasons to do both with week end rewards we just tell the players that to win is to K-Train, which I am against. Risk should equal reward. To encourage fights you need to encourage attackers and defenders. Not just attackers that already have the edge to choose the engagement time and place. Anyway more than I should at the hour, seeya on the morrow, good hunting!