Harbinger theorycraft thread

[The Boz.2038]

Been thinking about some harbie builds lately. Thought I'd start a thread where we can share builds and discuss stuff.

Here's a WIP quickness and offensive support build for raids and fractals http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSAFoE1aYZGMQWKjl1il6UfUF-zRRYmRwIH98nSLChUlAprCCRQ51TAAA-e
Pop elixirs and BIP, dagger 4, shroud, stay in for 9-12 seconds, pop out, pistol 2, 3, elixirs, BIP, dagger 4, switch, scepter 3, warhorn 5, shroud, repeat. Pop elite when needed.
It goes a long way to get some Might, but permanent 15 stacks just won't cut it, I fear. But the rest of the kit looks good. Permanent quickness, fury, swiftness, regen, 15 vuln, moderate healing through regen, vampiric traits, well, and all that while putting out some... honestly, not that bad DPS, looks like. Don't know where else to take this. 
Really odd how Blight doesn't help you with support, even though the spec was designed with support specifically in mind. Maybe Vile Vials should grant healing power and concentration per blight?

[LucianDK.8615]

Have you thought of concentration infusions to help with keeping up the boons?

Edit:

Look at the twisted medicine trait. You gain 13% of vitality as extra concentration, so there is support inbuilt.

Edited February 17, 2022 by LucianDK.8615

[The Boz.2038]

15 minutes ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

Have you thought of concentration infusions to help with keeping up the boons?

Wanted to keep this not costing hundreds of gold. I dislike greatly all the build sites using stat infusions in all slots everywhere always.

I do have twisted medicine. I have it selected in the build. Just thought that *that* effect would better fit if it were linked to Blight...

[LucianDK.8615]

15 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Wanted to keep this not costing hundreds of gold. I dislike greatly all the build sites using stat infusions in all slots everywhere always.

I do have twisted medicine. I have it selected in the build. Just thought that *that* effect would better fit if it were linked to Blight...

Ive some healing infusions ive been converting to concentration. 7 to go, just short of spirit shards.

[The Boz.2038]

Congrats. Been planning any Harbinger builds with them?

[LucianDK.8615]

4 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Congrats. Been planning any Harbinger builds with them?

Definitely want to try out elixir support with them. As I expect scourge is going to take quite a beating.

[maxwelgm.4315]

I personally find it very underwhelming as a "support+utility" spec, and I very much think Anet aimed at the "DPS+utility" angle instead. Maybe it's because Scourge is (and will remain) so good and people expect it to fill the same role, but really in the end I imagine the way to make Harbinger truly shine would be focusing on its DPS capabilities instead, even if you want to insist on being one of the squad's quickness sources.

 

For instance: This build, dropping the quite underwhelming and very low synergy with Harbinger blood traitline in favor of curses+soul reaping could be much better if you can rotate Shroud into 100% quickness uptime (perhaps with proper food as well). The build is also easily adaptable for more DPS at the cost of boon uptime if the encounters are somehow short enough to allow for that (and they might actually become very short for "non-updated" content like raids mind you, with the new benchmarks we are getting for other classes). So yeah, I think Healscourge will keep its spot as transfusion healer, and quick Harbinger will likely not be within the healthy 10% or so range of the top "support+utility" quick builds we will get with EoD. That would make it so it can actually be better to just bring a scourge if you need transfusion and otherwise the quick Harbinger or just DPS Harbinger is much more attractive than a Blood variant. Maybe in WvW of course it's different, but PvE is still all about the dps...

Edited February 18, 2022 by maxwelgm.4315
added proper trait swap

[Infusion.7149]

Condi harbinger with Ritualist gear and torment rune would slot in where you would run quickness DPS scrapper and then you run alacrity mechanist (which provides might) , alac specter with barrier support, or cele/heal alac ren.

With the new ritualist gear set (21K+ health with full blight) and the vitality bonus from the jade bot along with weakness spam on condi variants and torment rune heals, if harbingers still complain about low health then they just need to improve their gameplay honestly.

You can project DPS for quickness harbinger easily using the CnD quickness harbinger video where ~80% of outgoing DPS is conditions. They have cele gear which is 2463 condition damage at full might and banners along with ~100% torment duration and ~70% bleeding duration. Your gear likely would net the roughly same result without drawing aggro in raids as if you have food+utility it would push 2727 condition damage at full might+banner with ~99% torment duration and ~69% bleed duration. The difference is you are at ~74% boon duration rather than 51%.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Shroud.2307]

Reaper's Disciple

Trying something similar to what I use with core Necro with Valk and Strength runes for the big pumps.

Scholar and Eagle are better for bigger damage upfront, and I think with Harbinger having the terrible sustain that it does, they might be the better pick over Strength. I only prefer Strength because, especially with Harbinger and the faster attack speed, it ramps up damage to obscenity when you've got 25 Might. Dark Barrage will literally one shot squishy players if you're point blank, but of course, the catch is that you can be too.

I played something similar to this during the beta, but have fine tuned it since. I was able to spike people for 15k+ point blank with Dark Barrage, and 10 - 15k Voracious Arc. Then of course things like Ghastly Claws, Spinal Shivers, and Lich also do a ridiculous amount of damage, so I'm looking forward to the memes.

I wouldn't recommend that anyone actually plays this though. It'll be terrible for most 1 v 1's and probably won't be a huge presence in team fights. I just like big numbers, so this kind of build will be fun for me.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Honestly seeing as the top line of traits were all Power focused I was hoping for something that could be either condi or power with  pistol, but it was rather lackluster in WvW with power.  I'll try that axe focus build though that @Shroud.2307 posted.

I still want a decent power pistol MH weapon though... Why are all of them condi...

[StarPT.7431]

On 2/18/2022 at 6:32 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

Condi harbinger with Ritualist gear and torment rune would slot in where you would run quickness DPS scrapper and then you run alacrity mechanist (which provides might) , alac specter with barrier support, or cele/heal alac ren.

With the new ritualist gear set (21K+ health with full blight) and the vitality bonus from the jade bot along with weakness spam on condi variants and torment rune heals, if harbingers still complain about low health then they just need to improve their gameplay honestly.

You can project DPS for quickness harbinger easily using the CnD quickness harbinger video where ~80% of outgoing DPS is conditions. They have cele gear which is 2463 condition damage at full might and banners along with ~100% torment duration and ~70% bleeding duration. Your gear likely would net the roughly same result without drawing aggro in raids as if you have food+utility it would push 2727 condition damage at full might+banner with ~99% torment duration and ~69% bleed duration. The difference is you are at ~74% boon duration rather than 51%.

And do you think a Ritualist Harbinger will be desired/at least not instantly get the boot in instanced PVE content? (Genuinely asking here)

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, StarPT.7431 said:

And do you think a Ritualist Harbinger will be desired/at least not instantly get the boot in instanced PVE content? (Genuinely asking here)

Depends on the encounter... like if it favours condi DPS over Direct so that Scrapper is not preferred. It really depends on what these competing builds bring over their quickness role. 

Seems the Ritualist gear is really aimed at Harbinger. Here is my draft build for soloing:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PS1Ao2ZlhyUZrMMWLWyPqRfA-zRJYyRHfZkeC0RB49sMpaE-e

Edited February 24, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Infusion.7149]

2 hours ago, StarPT.7431 said:

And do you think a Ritualist Harbinger will be desired/at least not instantly get the boot in instanced PVE content? (Genuinely asking here)

Depends on how firebrand is nerfed and how much harbinger is improved. If firebrand loses mantra of solace's shared aegis , no longer provides 25 might, and gets its damage gutted to make way for willbender you'd more or less only see it for role compression of heal + quickness. If say heal/support alacrity mechanist or specter take off you wouldn't want a cele HB + alac ren but a quickness harbinger + alacrity mechanist.

Last public beta the cele variant of harbinger quickness was pushing 27K which is roughly what is possible on power quickness scrapper or StM chrono. Having Ritualist gear affords you some viper pieces if you are inclined to which means more damage , as per CnD 51% or so boon duration is bare minimum.

It also depends on what kind of content you are talking about, for most existing strikes people don't really care , DRMs you can solo, and fractals below T4 most people also don't care. For fractals since condi is favored due to exposed debuff it is highly likely Ritualist gear will be effective for harbinger as even with full blight you have roughly the health of a full viper necro but you can be healed within shroud.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJXTFU_iDv8

Cele gear http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PSABoitjlhyAZpMNGJWsX1xVA-zRRYVh3MmyI3UojKw7DiIUDEP+1ogpNA-e

Same thing in ritualist gear http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSAFsElaYZosUmGDkRiF7VdcF-zRJYyRPfZkbK0RF49BJIGDvGF8pB-e

[StarPT.7431]

18 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Depends on how firebrand is nerfed and how much harbinger is improved. If firebrand loses mantra of solace's shared aegis , no longer provides 25 might, and gets its damage gutted to make way for willbender you'd more or less only see it for role compression of heal + quickness. If say heal/support alacrity mechanist or specter take off you wouldn't want a cele HB + alac ren but a quickness harbinger + alacrity mechanist.

Last public beta the cele variant of harbinger quickness was pushing 27K which is roughly what is possible on power quickness scrapper or StM chrono. Having Ritualist gear affords you some viper pieces if you are inclined to which means more damage , as per CnD 51% or so boon duration is bare minimum.

It also depends on what kind of content you are talking about, for most existing strikes people don't really care , DRMs you can solo, and fractals below T4 most people also don't care. For fractals since condi is favored due to exposed debuff it is highly likely Ritualist gear will be effective for harbinger as even with full blight you have roughly the health of a full viper necro but you can be healed within shroud.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJXTFU_iDv8

Cele gear http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PSABoitjlhyAZpMNGJWsX1xVA-zRRYVh3MmyI3UojKw7DiIUDEP+1ogpNA-e

Same thing in ritualist gear http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSAFsElaYZosUmGDkRiF7VdcF-zRJYyRPfZkbK0RF49BJIGDvGF8pB-e

I want it for any kind of PVE instanced content...T4 fractals and maybe CMs, strikes and possibly raids. For open world I can stick with Reaper if Harbinger just doesn't cut it good enough no problem.

I have a Renegade but I just figured out that I enjoy PVE much more on Necros while I enjoy PVP on Revenant way better than PVE.

EDIT: Also, how do you think Leadership runes would do instead of Torment?

Edited February 24, 2022 by StarPT.7431

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, StarPT.7431 said:

I want it for any kind of PVE instanced content...T4 fractals and maybe CMs, strikes and possibly raids. For open world I can stick with Reaper if Harbinger just doesn't cut it good enough no problem.

I have a Renegade but I just figured out that I enjoy PVE much more on Necros while I enjoy PVP on Revenant way better than PVE.

EDIT: Also, how do you think Leadership runes would do instead of Torment?

The build you make for a team will be different from the build you make for yourself; there isn't an optimal build that covers both situations. I would never take Leadership over Torment in a non-team situation. If your just trying to be a massive boon bot ... then I guess Leadership is the way to go but I don't think you actually get good boon coverage using Elixers with Harb to justify that Leadership use.  

[StarPT.7431]

27 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The build you make for a team will be different from the build you make for yourself; there isn't an optimal build that covers both situations. I would never take Leadership over Torment in a non-team situation. If your just trying to be a massive boon bot ... then I guess Leadership is the way to go but I don't think you actually get good boon coverage using Elixers with Harb to justify that Leadership use.  

Got it.

I was talking overall not necessarily 1 build (at least not trait wise...tweaking traits is easier than changing gear around for sure xD) all I want is something that can be optimal for instanced and, if possible, hold its own in solo with minimal changes...for the most part one doesn't need to be optimal..even to solo stuff in open world.

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, StarPT.7431 said:

Got it.

I was talking overall not necessarily 1 build (at least not trait wise...tweaking traits is easier than changing gear around for sure xD) all I want is something that can be optimal for instanced and, if possible, hold its own in solo with minimal changes...for the most part one doesn't need to be optimal..even to solo stuff in open world.

Then I advise you build for the optimal team scenario because that will still work in OW content. 

[Morde.3158]

Stop promoting condi necro please conditions are the most annoying thing in the game. I remember when the curses line used to be strong for power builds along with the scepter feast skill but, because of gw2 community or lack of understanding of the class anet changed it. Demon rev also got the same treatment if thats a better example.

[Obtena.7952]

20 hours ago, Morde.3158 said:

Stop promoting condi necro please conditions are the most annoying thing in the game. I remember when the curses line used to be strong for power builds along with the scepter feast skill but, because of gw2 community or lack of understanding of the class anet changed it. Demon rev also got the same treatment if thats a better example.

That's absurd ... people are simply answering the questions others have with honesty. If you don't like condi, don't use it. Anet doesn't change anything unless THEY want that change to be made.

Better yet, why don't you propose a direct DPS Harbinger build?

Edited February 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Morde.3158]

Sure but they also give reasons as to why they do it. I guess you dont read patch notes. They also make changes base on what players use and dont use all you doing is sideways at this point.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Morde.3158 said:

Sure but they also give reasons as to why they do it. They also make changes base on what players use and dont use all you doing is sideways at this point.

Great ... no one disputed that so ... still waiting for a suggestion of a good direct DPS Harb build so you make good on 'not promoting' condi builds you hate so much. 

In the meantime, let me add to the discussion with a build I plan to start off with for team-based quickness sharing (and yes, you will LOVE it because it's condi based also!)

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSAFsElaYZosUmGLk1il6VdUF-zRJYyRPfZkbK0RF49BJIGDvFd/0A-e

Edited February 25, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[StarPT.7431]

59 minutes ago, Morde.3158 said:

Sure but they also give reasons as to why they do it. I guess you dont read patch notes. They also make changes base on what players use and dont use all you doing is sideways at this point.

I don't even get the hate on condi...power playstyle is fun, specially if you can see big numbers..but condi playstyle is pretty fun as well

[jpsssss.7530]

I'm looking at the build below for my personal WvW Roaming needs. A different version did OK in the Beta.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSwAoiZlVwUZcMPWLWUX2xfA-zRZYVh7xM6G2ggLlILqMjgcTgeDBvPAh73ykSbA-e

[Noah Salazar.5430]

On 2/17/2022 at 1:39 PM, The Boz.2038 said:

Been thinking about some harbie builds lately. Thought I'd start a thread where we can share builds and discuss stuff.

Here's a WIP quickness and offensive support build for raids and fractals http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSAFoE1aYZGMQWKjl1il6UfUF-zRRYmRwIH98nSLChUlAprCCRQ51TAAA-e
Pop elixirs and BIP, dagger 4, shroud, stay in for 9-12 seconds, pop out, pistol 2, 3, elixirs, BIP, dagger 4, switch, scepter 3, warhorn 5, shroud, repeat. Pop elite when needed.
It goes a long way to get some Might, but permanent 15 stacks just won't cut it, I fear. But the rest of the kit looks good. Permanent quickness, fury, swiftness, regen, 15 vuln, moderate healing through regen, vampiric traits, well, and all that while putting out some... honestly, not that bad DPS, looks like. Don't know where else to take this. 
Really odd how Blight doesn't help you with support, even though the spec was designed with support specifically in mind. Maybe Vile Vials should grant healing power and concentration per blight?

it can be well paired with mechanist as halac (he will provid alot might togheter with other boons) and perm 4-5k barrier

 

i worry harbringer and mechanist combo will be too good

Edited February 27, 2022 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Nimon.7840]

On 2/27/2022 at 7:52 AM, jpsssss.7530 said:

I'm looking at the build below for my personal WvW Roaming needs. A different version did OK in the Beta.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSwAoiZlVwUZcMPWLWUX2xfA-zRZYVh7xM6G2ggLlILqMjgcTgeDBvPAh73ykSbA-e

 

I like the approach, but I absolutely dislike dagger offhand. I will be playing something similar, but it's definetly going to be either focus or warhorn offhand.

Maybe even both if I decide to not play staff, because I don't like staff (imo staff is only good against thieves and guardians, against the rest, either axe or scepter is better)