BTW, in case you missed it, Ele is now a primary melee class

[scerevisiae.1972]

With the addition of hammer, Ele became a primarily melee-based class.

Definitions:
Melee: more than 50% of skills <= 240 range
Ranged: more than 50% of skills > 240 range
Hybrid: approx equal melee/ranged skills

 

Ele: 
melee (4): D/D,  D/W, Sw/D, hammer
ranged (2): staff, Sc/F
hybrid (4): D/F, Sc/D, Sw/F, Sc/W
--------------> 40% melee, 20% ranged, 40% hybrid

Necro:
melee (1): greatsword
ranged (11): staff, Sc/D, Sc/F, Sc/T, A/D, A/F, A/W, A/T, P/D, P/F, P/W
hybrid (4): D/W, D/D, D/T, D/F
--------------> 6% melee, 70% ranged, 24% hybrid 

Mesmer:
melee (1): Sw/Sh
ranged (11): staff, Sc/F, Sc/T, Sc/Sw, Sc/P, GS, D/F, D/T, D/Sw, D/P, D/T
hybrid (8): Sw/F, Sw/T, Sw/Sw, Sw/P, A/F, A/T, A/P, Sc/Sh 
--------------> 5% melee, 55% ranged, 40% hybrid

 

In case you're wondering, hammer has 6 ranged skills out of 20. It is very much a melee weapon.

Edited February 18, 2022 by scerevisiae.1972
emoticon parsing on these forums is broken

[Jski.6180]

Transmutation are 240 ranged too.

[The Boz.2038]

Lol

A melee mainhand and an offhand that has to not be melee to not be useless on ranged weapons do not a hybrid make. 

Rofl.

[fuzzyp.6295]

Why do you have Scepter/Focus in hybrid but Scepter/Dagger ranged? Comet, Gale, and Frozen Gust are more ranged. What range is on Dagger? If you insist on calling scepter hybrid, these should atleast be swapped. Warhorn too... Wild Fire? Lighting Orb? Cyclone? Water Globe? Tidal Surge? Dust Storm? All over 240 range. Is it because Scepter can AoE at their feet and range? Wouldn't that make Staff basically a hybrid here?

You also have 4 hybrids there, not 3. If you're counting dagger twice for melee, count scepter twice.

Although... i think you'd struggle to find anyone who says Sc/F is 'hybrid' in terms of range. Damage, yes. But Scepter is a range weapon, i challenge you to use it effectively >240 feet. (well atleast competitively im sure you could cheese pve ) Funny enough, Sc/D is a much better >240 option since it has that crazy insta-burst damage but you gotta get right in their face. Plus, you know, it actually has mobility to get into melee unlike Sc/F. Lol

EDIT: Oh and on Necro, all Daggers need to be range. the only >240 skill on Dagger is Auto Attack. Are you basing this list strictly on that ? If thats the case, why is Scepter for Ele anything other than all range since all their autos and skills are <240 range? And dont Focus, Warhorn (well maybe this can be the only hybrid by your rules)  and Torch all outrange your  >240 melee rule?

Not to be rude but, I think you may need to revisit your metrics a bit. This seems very... biased, to say the least.

Edited February 18, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295

[Mik.3401]

That’s kind of strange analysis. I believe that melee MH and Ranged OH is pretty much an melee option overall not hybrid. So you kind of failed to prove the point, but still yes - ele’s best weapons are all melee atm and another melee spec is coming. Despite the fact hammer low-key sucks it still will be used to utilise the class mechanic (skill 3 on hammer) which is quite funny

Edited February 18, 2022 by Mik.3401

[scerevisiae.1972]

2 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

Why do you have Scepter/Focus in hybrid but Scepter/Dagger ranged? 

mistype, my bad. was supposed to be t'other way round. fixed.

Edited February 18, 2022 by scerevisiae.1972

[scerevisiae.1972]

2 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

EDIT: Oh and on Necro, all Daggers need to be range. the only >240 skill on Dagger is Auto Attack. 
[...]
Not to be rude but, I think you may need to revisit your metrics a bit. This seems very... biased, to say the least.

the #1 is 3 skills not 1, so while the #2 and #3 are ranged, the 3x #1 skills tip it into the melee bucket IMO.

Ele warhorn is a tricky one cause all the "ranged" skills start at melee range and slowly progress to 750 range.

 

I get that this is an imperfect analysis but I was trying to stay as objective as possible.

 

Regardless it's pretty clear that Ele skews more melee than ranged, and that Ele is by far the most melee-oriented of the light caster classes.

[draxynnic.3719]

Just base it on the autoattack. If the autoattack is melee (or mostly melee in case of ele dagger) it's melee or hybrid depending on the other skills. If the autoattack is 900+, it's ranged, unless there are a lot of skills that require being up close, in which case it's hybrid.

Like some people have said, I'd classify Sc/F as ranged and Sc/D as hybrid. Sc/Wh I'd probably classify as ranged if you weren't required to use tempest to use it, and tempest is pretty much always melee or hybrid for the sake of overloads unless you're pure support. Most warhorn skills have decent ranges apart from Tidal Surge which is a pretty typical knockback. Because it IS locked to tempest, though, it works out as hybrid. Tempest pretty much shifts every weapon set one step closer to melee unless you just don't use overloads apart from water.

[fuzzyp.6295]

 

6 hours ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

the #1 is 3 skills not 1, so while the #2 and #3 are ranged, the 3x #1 skills tip it into the melee bucket IMO.

Ele warhorn is a tricky one cause all the "ranged" skills start at melee range and slowly progress to 750 range.

 

I get that this is an imperfect analysis but I was trying to stay as objective as possible.

 

Regardless it's pretty clear that Ele skews more melee than ranged, and that Ele is by far the most melee-oriented of the light caster classes.

I really think you need to re-consider your metrics for listing a weapon set as range, hybrid or melee. Your overall point is a fair one to make, (and one I'm happy about, I love my melee Eles <3) but it seems you're putting too much emphasis on skill text instead of practicality.  We all see the point you're trying to make here, but this list is just inaccurate (not to mention it doesn't seem to consider that Elementalist has to have more variety of skill ranges because it lacks weapons to begin with, which could skew your results in the end). It's one thing to look at skills on paper and its another thing to see what they do and how they work in game and with the weapon.

Scepter is a ranged weapon regardless of its offhand. Again, I would love to see you play it effective and stay with >240 range with any of these sets weapons. Even Dagger stays at range until its time for their burst and gets right the heck out when its done. As a hybrid in the same vein as MH dagger (edit: and sword/focus? actually didn't even see this before, no Sword build should be in hyrbid... thats pure melee lol), this should by possible by your own standards listed here, right? Please, indulge me. And don't go full defensive gear, because at that point its the gear that is letting you play "hybrid range" and not the weapon set.

You'll find it very painful to play Scepter at anything but range, regardless of the off hands.
 

 

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Sc/Wh I'd probably classify as ranged if you weren't required to use tempest to use it, and tempest is pretty much always melee or hybrid for the sake of overloads unless you're pure support. Most warhorn skills have decent ranges apart from Tidal Surge which is a pretty typical knockback. Because it IS locked to tempest, though, it works out as hybrid. Tempest pretty much shifts every weapon set one step closer to melee unless you just don't use overloads apart from water.

If this thread was going to go into elite specs and their variations, then I would have to say we'd need to switch Scepter/Dagger to range considering the plethora of ranged abilities Weavers offers it. There is no way that wouldnt outweigh the skills on Dagger.  I don't think a thread that is claiming to be objective about the Elementalist should be taking into account profession mechanics since this thread was clearly created on the basis of weapon skill range.

And honestly, most Sc/W that I see try to avoid using Overloads unless the opponent is CC'd and they can lead a full Overload Air safely or its a team fight because they are usually playing at range and getting within melee is no good with that weapon set. So, yes, Warhorn is a hybrid weapon but Scepter/Warhorn as a playstyle? It's range. Thats probably why Warhorn's skill actually start melee (for dagger) then move out to range (for scepter) to make sure both player styles are covered.

Warhorn is absolutely be hybrid if this list was focused on the individual weapons. But Sc/Warhorn is absolutely a ranged weapon set and playstyle. But a the end of the day, if this is how OP wants to list it, then thats up to them I suppose.  (EDIT: I'm working under the assumption that these are for competitive game modes, because honestly if we're talking PvE, stacking tightly together in close range is so frequently used across multiple game types that you could probably argue Staff is a melee ranged weapon if you look at that game play.)

This really feels like it just boils down to reading the skill ranges on the wiki vs actually playing the build to see how it plays in game.

Edited February 18, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295

[Jski.6180]

I think there is something to say about ele skills that only travel along the ground as being less then normal ranged. That ability to hit a "flying" or "off the ground" target is very important is most of the game so if your skill can only travel along the ground often it will not work vs that type of foe.

[Downstate.4697]

If the weapon is ranged then ele is ranged. The hell even is this

[Jski.6180]

21 minutes ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

If the weapon is ranged then ele is ranged. The hell even is this

From that point of view no class is melee. What this is i think is general disillusionment with the balancing and chose anet making with the ele class. That can be said about ele for sometime.

My problem with the current ranged on ele is how the attks move dagger has near ranged but they travel along the ground so they cant hit flying things or things on a higher level. Some effects like transmutation are on a way too short of a range.

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

If this thread was going to go into elite specs and their variations, then I would have to say we'd need to switch Scepter/Dagger to range considering the plethora of ranged abilities Weavers offers it. There is no way that wouldnt outweigh the skills on Dagger. 

Pretty much every skill on offhand dagger is intended to be used at melee or point-blank range. If you're not going in close at least occasionally, dagger offhand is pretty close to being no offhand. If you're planning to stay at range, you use focus.

9 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

I don't think a thread that is claiming to be objective about the Elementalist should be taking into account profession mechanics since this thread was clearly created on the basis of weapon skill range.

I don't think it's realistic to ignore them. Elite specialisation mechanics affect how the build as a whole plays. If an elite specialisation has a mechanic that means that it can choose to spend five seconds channeling a skill that does heavy damage in an area around it, every ten seconds, then it's a bit hard to claim that it's optimised to be a pure ranged combatant.

9 hours ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

And honestly, most Sc/W that I see try to avoid using Overloads unless the opponent is CC'd and they can lead a full Overload Air safely or its a team fight because they are usually playing at range and getting within melee is no good with that weapon set. So, yes, Warhorn is a hybrid weapon but Scepter/Warhorn as a playstyle? It's range. Thats probably why Warhorn's skill actually start melee (for dagger) then move out to range (for scepter) to make sure both player styles are covered.

Warhorn is absolutely be hybrid if this list was focused on the individual weapons. But Sc/Warhorn is absolutely a ranged weapon set and playstyle. But a the end of the day, if this is how OP wants to list it, then thats up to them I suppose.  (EDIT: I'm working under the assumption that these are for competitive game modes, because honestly if we're talking PvE, stacking tightly together in close range is so frequently used across multiple game types that you could probably argue Staff is a melee ranged weapon if you look at that game play.)

This really feels like it just boils down to reading the skill ranges on the wiki vs actually playing the build to see how it plays in game.

Dude, I was one of the pioneers of Sc/W playstyle back in the HoT beta. It's absolutely a hybrid. You use the weapon skills in a stand-off capability, then you dive in for an overload, then back off again. 

As for competitive - it might be exaggerating a little to say that I haven't seen scepter/warhorn being played in sPvP in years, but not by a lot - I certainly don't remember seeing any. Maybe there are a couple of people playing it but they're basically unicorns. Either way, if I see a tempest on the other team, I always expect to see overloads, and not just water overloads for healing.

Tempest is, inherently, either melee or hybrid regardless of the weapon, unless it's a full healing, camp water build. If you're not overloading, you're just not making full use of your abilities. 

[fuzzyp.6295]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Pretty much every skill on offhand dagger is intended to be used at melee or point-blank range. If you're not going in close at least occasionally, dagger offhand is pretty close to being no offhand. If you're planning to stay at range, you use focus.

My point is here is more if Tempest's four overload skills outweigh all 6 of the ranged Warhorn to put in 'hybrid', then why doesn't the Weaver's 6 new range abilities outweigh the 6 skills of the OH Dagger ? Especially once you count all the ranged Scepter skills. 18 to 6 ain't 'approx equal melee/ranged skills ' by the OP's own grading system. If we're going by class mechanic defining playstyle, the Weaver's dual attacks all being ranged focused means that Weaver Scepter is meant to be a ranged class.

I'm perfectly fine accepting Tempest as a hybrid/melee-oriented elite spec and that Dagger is a melee focused weapon you pick to do PBAoE. It's just this list  and its classifications for why one thing is ranged and one thing hybrid is bogus. (EDIT: the two OH daggers that aren't ranged are RtL and Fire Grab for anyone else wondering)
 

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You use the weapon skills in a stand-off capability, then you dive in for an overload, then back off again. 

Yes, exactly why its range and not hybrid. You can't stay in melee range. Hybrids should be able to function in both melee and range, yeah? That's the definition of a hybrid: being able to play at both range and melee effectively. Jumping in, overloading, then running away is not hybrid game play in my opinion. But if thats what you consider a hybrid, then so be it, difference of opinion. And I know this isn't your list anyway so I mean, agree to disagree on that I suppose.

I've seen Scepter/Warhorn in competitive, but its not popular. It's best used in team comps because it has virtually no way to handle pressure. I think there was a Fresh Air player who posted some fun videos of him winning a 3v1 with a Scepter/Warhorn Ele a couple months ago on these forums?  Would not in anyway advocate its a good build though in most situations.

I feel Scepter/Warhorn is absolutely a ranged play style. But if OP wants to prove the point that Ele is suddenly a 'melee primary' class, sure, lets call it hybrid lol. Calling Scepter a hybrid weapon under any circumstance is just laughable. Considering OP has Sword/Focus as hybrid range, I'm not really seeing a point in trying to prove the obvious anymore.

Edited February 19, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295

[draxynnic.3719]

15 minutes ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

My point is here is more if Tempest's four overload skills outweigh all 6 of the ranged Warhorn to put in 'hybrid', then the Weaver's ranged abilities 6 new range abilities outweigh the 6 skills of the OH Dagger to put it into hybrid when you add up all the Scepter skills? 18 to 6 ain't 'approx equal melee/ranged skills ' by the OP's own grading system.

I'd consider the OP's technique as a shorthand for "how much time are you likely to spend doing either". Overloads may technically be a small number of skills on paper, but tempest play often involves spending half of your time overloading.

15 minutes ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

I'm perfectly fine accepting Tempest as a hybrid/melee-oriented elite spec and that Dagger is a melee focused weapon. Iits just  this list  and its classifications is bogus. (EDIT: the two OH daggers that aren't ranged are RtL and Fire Grab)

People generally don't regard point-blank area of effect skills as being "ranged". Ring of Fire, Earthquake, and Churning Earth are all PBAOEs with radii similar to overloads. So is Updraft, but Updraft can be used as a gap-opener so it can be used with a ranged build. Short of combo field play, the only skills on offhand dagger that I see actually being useful for 600+ ranged combat are Frost Aura, Cleansing Wave, using Ride the Lightning for mobility (but then it has a 60s recharge), and using Updraft as a gap opener. If you're not getting into point-blank range reasonably often, you're not making good use out of your offhand skills.

15 minutes ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

Yes, exactly why its range and not hybrid. You can't stay in melee range. Hybrids should be able to function in both melee and range, yeah? That's the definition of a hybrid: being able to play at both range and melee effectively. Jumping in, overloading, then running away is not hybrid game play in my opinion. But if thats what you consider a hybrid, then so be it, difference of opinion. And I know this isn't your list anyway so I mean, agree to disagree on that I suppose.

You can't stay at range without significantly decreasing your output either, though. I define hybrid as wanting to be at range some of the time, wanting to be in melee or point blank range some of the time. It's a style I generally denote as "skirmisher", but it's a subset of hybrid, since you're not doing either all of the time.

Personally, I define it based on what you can do without giving up on some of your potential. If you can stay at 700+ range indefinitely without giving up on some of your potential, that's ranged. If you have some stand-off capability but want to go into point blank range at least temporarily to get off some hard-hitting skills (like overloads), that's hybrid. If you pretty much want to be in melee all the time or your contribution starts dropping off sharply, that's melee.

Weaponswapping professions do confuse the issue since any build that has a melee set and a ranged set is going to be hybrid by nature, but as long as the profession mechanics don't push you into a particular role, you can judge the weapon sets individually. Tempest warhorn just has the issue that what might otherwise be considered a ranged offhand, is locked to an elite specialisation built around channeled PBAOEs.

15 minutes ago, fuzzyp.6295 said:

Scepter/Warhorn is absolutely a ranged play style. But if to prove the point that Ele is suddenly a 'melee primary' class, sure, lets call it hybrid lol. Calling Scepter a hybrid weapon under any circumstance is just laughable. Considering OP has Sword/Focus as hybrid range, I'm not really seeing a point in trying to prove the obvious anymore.

Not if you're making use of offensive overloads. Again, if you're spending roughly half your time within 360 range of the enemy, I don't think it can be considered "ranged". 

I'd also note that, despite being a ranged weapon on paper, there is a lot of precedent to scepter being used primarily at melee range, in fire attunement at least, for the purpose of might stacking (and for making it less likely that an enemy will simply walk out of Dragon's Tooth). 

[fuzzyp.6295]

That's fair. It's not how I view hybrid, but I can see why you would consider it and respect it.  We just have two different views of the term hybrid. Although:
 

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Weaponswapping professions do confuse the issue since any build that has a melee set and a ranged set is going to be hybrid by nature

I'm hoping you're not thinking I don't have like, 8,000 clocked in exclusively on Ele and that I'm some sort of 'weapon swapping profession'. Digusting.

I would still say that Scepter Weaver's skills would make Scepter a ranged class regardless of the off hand if we're going to focus on class mechanics because Dual Attacks are as important to a Weavers rotation as Overloads to Tempest. (I know Warhorn is exclusive to Tempest and why that might be the factor, BUT in this situation, his list is supposed to objective and focused on skills, not profession mechanics. But isn't that being cherry picked a bit? It counts with Tempest, but not with Weaver?)

Out of curiosity, does the fact that overloads exist also mean that Staff Tempest should be considered Hybrid by your definition? Power Staff Tempest was a thing, even if its not used much nowadays. And could a Support focused Scepter/Warhorn player be considered range if they only focus on using Water Overload? How would you define those, just wondering.

I would assume, Staff Tempest would be hybrid by your standards, but I think that proves as to why making a list based on arbitrary range numbers is not the way to discuss this topic. Staff isn't listed here as hybrid even with an asterisk even though Staff Tempest is (i'm guessing) hybrid. If we're going to consider class mechanics, this should be addressed, yes? I would say the better way to discuss it is to just look at the weapons and their predominate play style + spec, not "is it over 240 range".

Well, I guess OP can do that if they want... I just really don't think this whole list is the correct way to go about making this statement. It's much more nuanced than just range numbers... although that might just because of how I view the term 'hybrid.'
 

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'd also note that, despite being a ranged weapon on paper, there is a lot of precedent to scepter being used primarily at melee range, in fire attunement at least, for the purpose of might stacking (and for making it less likely that an enemy will simply walk out of Dragon's Tooth). 

I MEAN if you're gonna call out Scepter as Hybrid for Might Stacking, does the amount of fields to stack and blast on Staff make that melee?  😄 I wouldn't consider using myself as bait for an enemy AI as hybrid game play., but thats just me.

Edited February 19, 2022 by fuzzyp.6295

[draxynnic.3719]

I don't think Weaver really changes the metric because, while the dual skills do increase the ranged potential of sceptre and staff weaver, it doesn't affect what the offhands do. Offhand dagger is still designed on the basis that you're using it with either a melee or a hybrid playstyle. Running sceptre weaver for ranged is certainly valid (although apart from the dual skills, weaver doesn't have much else to optimise for playing ranged), but you'd do that with focus where everything except Magnetic Wave and Fire Shield are optimised for ranged combat (and even those can be used in ranged combat, they're just weaker).

IMO, taking offhand dagger represents an expectation that you're going to spend at least some time up close, and therefore it's pretty much always going to be part of a melee or hybrid build. Mind you, there's nothing wrong with that. Personally, when making these comparisons, I've generally focused on the autoattack-capable weapons (sceptre, staff, dagger, sword, hammer), which is a pretty clear case of two being oriented towards range, three towards melee or PBAOE range. 

And yeah, for what it's worth, I'd classify staff tempest as hybrid. Staff core or weaver would be ranged (they've generally been ranged that can still do okay in melee, with the "use yourself as bait" principle as you put it, but if the enemy isn't moving out of your AoEs, you can blast from long range to your heart's content) unless there's something weird going on like running Primordial Stance and melee-oriented conjures: but then that's the build, not the weapon. Warhorn just gets special treatment because you can't have warhorn without also having overloads. Technically speaking, yeah, scepter/warhorn in isolation would be ranged, but you can't ignore that you'll always have overloads with that combination. 

Mind you, what made sceptre somewhat meleeish wasn't purely using yourself as bait, it was because if you want to benefit from the might gain from blasting the combo field AND to do damage with the skills you used to blast the field, you need to be fairly close to your enemy to do it. Strictly speaking, you can get a similar effect with staff (using Eruption to blast Lava Font), but you couldn't stack as much with that as you could with Dragon's Tooth-Fire 4-Phoenix-Earth Attunement-Earth 4-Evasive Arcana.

Edited February 19, 2022 by draxynnic.3719

[Winchester Smythe Anus III.2153]

We can argue the finer details of whether XYZ skill/weapon is melee/ranged/hybrid but I don't think it would change the overall picture. I kinda knew Ele was the more melee-oriented of the light armour classes but I didn't think it was as bad as this lol.

In making hammer a dagger/sword-style melee weapon, Anet clearly want Ele to be a melee caster. Yeah like a lot of Ele players I am super disappointed with hammer but the simple fact is if you want to play a ranged caster class then mesmer or necro is the better choice. Harbinger and Virtuoso are both solid ranged caster specs.  

Edited February 20, 2022 by Winchester Smythe Anus III.2153

[brandies.8673]

I just don't know what they were going for with hammer. Why would you make another melee weapon that fills exactly the same space as dagger and sword but is worse than either of them at everything.

If you were going to make a short-medium range weapon, why would you give it only 6 out of 20 600-range skills? And even then, those 6 skills are kinda underwhelming. 

[Xaylin.1860]

Manufacturing a statistic to support a narrative 101. 🤭 Even if it was objective to a sufficient degree, you might call Elementalist hybrid just as much as melee. But painting Necro and Mesmer to be more ranged than Elementalist probably is the even bolder statement to me personally.

 

All personal opinion aside, what is the arguement here? That Catalyst should have been ranged?

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Manufacturing a statistic to support a narrative 101. 🤭 Even if it was objective to a sufficient degree, you might call Elementalist hybrid just as much as melee. But painting Necro and Mesmer to be more ranged than Elementalist probably is the even bolder statement to me personally.

 

All personal opinion aside, what is the arguement here? That Catalyst should have been ranged?

"Catalyst should have been ranged" can only be a personal opinion, so I don't see how we set that aside.  I think if we're being honest, elementalist ranged weapons are not in the best shape and the two elite specs we've had thus far favor melee over range.  I would agree that necromancer and mesmer ranged options are in better shape.  So, should hammer have been a ranged weapon?  I think so.  Unless something changes I don't see myself giving up sword weaver's melee playstyle for catalyst hammer playstyle.

[Xaylin.1860]

I have set my personal opinion on whether Necromancer or Mesmer are better at range (from a weapons' perspective) aside. But since you're picking it up:

Necro at range won't work without Wells and/or Shades (plus Axe being mostly hybrid, imho) so I'd argue that other factors are more important here. Especially since Reaper is clearly melee focussed the 6% based on weapon skills alone seems extremely biased and skewed. At least it doesn't really paint the whole picture. However, we might agree that Dagger is worse than other Necro weapons? I could agree on Scepter being accetable for extended ranged play. That doesn't make their ranged options great.

Mesmer is a totally different story. Because while they now might indeed have more ranged skills (%), their playstyle/positioning will most likely be more hybrid or melee overall because Shatters don't work well at range. They are forced into close range just as much as Tempest for offense and have to stick to their group for defense. If anything we would have to look at Bladesongs here.

Regarding Hammer: I actually do agree that Elementalist didn't need yet another melee weapon. But personally see Hammer as hybrid. However, there is hardly a point in arguing this if someone else simply perceives it differently. Having differing opinions is perfectly fine.

The only thing that confuses me is the switcheroo on classic element ranges, e.g. Water being melee. It doesn't really make much sense and will probably won't make a difference for Catalyst overall. It feels more like a gimmick for the sake of switching things up. However, simply having the option of a damage focussed Water/Ice AA spikes my interest at least a little bit.

Edited February 20, 2022 by Xaylin.1860
Took out paragraphs. Posting via phone is weird...

[Swagg.9236]

BTW, in case you missed it, Ele was ALWAYS a primary melee class.  From 2012-2015 D/D was always the meta in all skirmish-scaled modes outside of PvE, and PvE was just camping staff's fire attunement after you chain-combo'ed 25 might onto the party with scepter/dagger.  Even Fresh Air in PvP was still inconsistent because it could be hard-countered by so many things compared to mainhand dagger set-ups.  Ele was always just magical warrior.  I'm not saying that this is good, but you can't pretend that the class was ever a wizard archetype.  GW2 doesn't care.

[hartmoore.9632]

I don't quite get the point being made, elementalist has more skills that make them a close combat fighter, as a result, they get the relevant boons to supplement the playstyle.

Are you trying to say you want more effective long range glass cannon playstyle?

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

I have set my personal opinion on whether Necromancer or Mesmer are better at range (from a weapons' perspective) aside. But since you're picking it up:

Necro at range won't work without Wells and/or Shades (plus Axe being mostly hybrid, imho) so I'd argue that other factors are more important here. Especially since Reaper is clearly melee focussed the 6% based on weapon skills alone seems extremely biased and skewed. At least it doesn't really paint the whole picture. However, we might agree that Dagger is worse than other Necro weapons? I could agree on Scepter being accetable for extended ranged play. That doesn't make their ranged options great.

Mesmer is a totally different story. Because while they now might indeed have more ranged skills (%), their playstyle/positioning will most likely be more hybrid or melee overall because Shatters don't work well at range. They are forced into close range just as much as Tempest for offense and have to stick to their group for defense. If anything we would have to look at Bladesongs here.

Regarding Hammer: I actually do agree that Elementalist didn't need yet another melee weapon. But personally see Hammer as hybrid. However, there is hardly a point in arguing this if someone else simply perceives it differently. Having differing opinions is perfectly fine.

The only thing that confuses me is the switcheroo on classic element ranges, e.g. Water being melee. It doesn't really make much sense and will probably won't make a difference for Catalyst overall. It feels more like a gimmick for the sake of switching things up. However, simply having the option of a damage focussed Water/Ice AA spikes my interest at least a little bit.

Hammer is Dagger 2.0.

No autoattack-capable weapon that isn't primarily intended to be used in melee has had a range of less than 900 since guardian staff was reworked (and even before then, most of its attacks were 1200 range, it just had an unusual autoattack). If we expanded into kits and the like, you could say that engineer flamethrower also counts, since it's perfectly happy remaining at around 400 range without closing, but that's pretty clearly not the case with catalyst hammer. Meanwhile, there are a lot of melee weapons that maintain a credible threat envelope of up to 600 range, or even more - necromancer dagger, revenant mace, and so on. 

Sure, hammer using fire and air might be a bit more potent at 600 range than dagger tickling the enemy with Vapour Blade at 600 range, but dagger picks up significantly around 400 range with fire as well as potentially having some ranged capability with focus. Even in fire and air, catalyst wants to go into melee for the whirling orbs, and the ultimate skill in fire (and, incidentally, the one that has a finisher, and catalyst really wants to trigger combos) is effectively melee. And the fact that so much of hammer's potential is wrapped up in getting those orbs going means you're not going to want to sit back and shoot unless going into melee would be suicidal or ineffectual (hello phasing bosses), since you'll want to be in melee cycling those elements.

 

So, let's make that comparison between mesmer and necromancer.

On release, mesmer and necromancer were intended to be the "these are spellcasters with a bit of melee capability" (particularly when necromancer wells had zero range and core shroud was more melee-oriented than it is now). Let's look at where they are now, though?

Reaper is similar to what I've said about tempest: the elite specialisation mechanic being melee-oriented means that even if you equip it with ranged weapons it's still a hybrid. But reaper is only one necromancer elite specialisation. If you're not running reaper, your only melee weapon available on necromancer is dagger. For scourge, in a mobile combat it is sometimes worthwhile going into melee ranges so that your shroud abilities stick to the target, but in less mobile combats, planting a shade or two in the right places and blasting away from a distance is perfectly viable. Harbinger shroud is a bit of a hybrid, but unlike the way elementalist skills are designed, necromancer shrouds (apart from reaper, naturally) are set up so that autoattacking at range is still a viable option (particularly if backed up by traits), and harbinger is otherwise set up for ranged combat (unless you want to build up Blight by throwing elixirs at yourself).

For mesmer, if you choose ranged weapons, you're really only looking at Illusionary Persona. A three-clone shatter from outside of melee range is still a decent effect - sure, you lose some damage, but less than you lose from, say, using a spread effect from outside of point-blank range. Otherwise, there's not really anything on any mesmer spec that pushes you into melee except Chaos Armour on staff, a few optional traits, and maybe collecting mirrors on Mirage. (While Mirage does have a melee weapon, I'd argue that mirage utilities and traits are less oriented towards melee than either weaver or catalyst, and, again, mirage is only one mesmer elite specialisation).

And here's the numbers: Necromancer and mesmer have two melee autoattack-capable weapons each. Elementalist has more melee weapons than either despite having significantly less weapons overall. For comparison, when EoD releases, elementalist's balance of ranged and melee weapons will be comparable to what revenant, a heavily armoured profession with medium base health, has now. 3 melee weapons to 2 ranged weapons is incredibly lopsided for a profession that is described in the character creation screens as "favours ranged". Every elite specialisation being designed to push the profession into melee makes it even more so, particularly when elementalist is probably the profession where remaining core is hardest to justify.

 

You ask what the argument is? Basically, it's that elementalist shouldn't be in a situation where after three expansions, every elite specialisation has been melee-oriented, and where every new autoattack-capable weapon it has received since release has been melee-oriented.