PvP Flamethrower nerf

[SeTect.5918]

"Flamethrower Scrapper

• Flame Jet: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.25 to 0.15 in PvP only.
• Flame Blast: Increased burning duration from 4 seconds to 6 seconds in PvP only.

Finally, we have an adjustment to Flamethrower Scrapper. This is another case where we’re making a shorter-term change while discussions are happening around the underlying issue (Juggernaut pulsing stability). This build isn’t too widely played compared to some of the other meta builds, but it’s one of the most effective in lower ranks and the gameplay of primarily sitting in flamethrower kit and autoattacking isn’t something that we like to see. If the damage reduction doesn’t appear to be impactful enough, we’ll likely split the pulse interval of Juggernaut until we can find a better game-wide solution."



I dont want to say anything to this, I just want to inform you about this nerf coming on 28th Feb.

Source:

 

[Infusion.7149]

IMO the problem with it was scrapper quickness uptime , if the quickness on scrapper outside of PVE was cut down it would not be an issue.

However, flamethrower doesn't have a competitive mode split so that's probably why it ended up nerfed (in particular when used with Juggernaut which counters single uses of CC).

[Nimbus Nomad.1237]

This change is actually a buff to condi engi. Flame blast's burning increase from 4 to 6 seconds is great and huge step in the right direction. 

Hopefully anet starts introducing more buffs/tweaks like this in the future.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

I guess Anet forgot core engi still exist and struggle to even do something

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

They do not want to touch Impact Savant 😄. It was a pain to get it this stable, let us hope this small change does the trick.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

3 hours ago, Nimbus Nomad.1237 said:

This change is actually a buff to condi engi. Flame blast's burning increase from 4 to 6 seconds is great and huge step in the right direction. 

Hopefully anet starts introducing more buffs/tweaks like this in the future.

Is it though? Because yes, core engi can technically make use of this change, but it depends on whether or not they buffed both explosion and passthrough.

 

If they wanted to buff core condi engi, they could start by improving the poor hitbox tracking on most skills (pistol 4 I'm looking at you), for which is sometimes an issue with this skill due to the projectile-based damage part of the skill.

Edited February 19, 2022 by ThrakathNar.4537

[Nimbus Nomad.1237]

8 minutes ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

Is it though? Because yes, core engi can technically make use of this change, but realistically you weren't going to use flamethrower auto attacks anway.

 

Remember, the burning is applied at the end of the animation only. So that requires you to cast the full 2.25s animation just for one stack of burning. Even if the duration is buffed by 1.5x, the cooldown is low enough on your other kit/pistol skills that realistically you're never pushed into the position where you need to use your autoattack.

 

If they really wanted to buff flamethrower auto for condi, they would make it so the burning is applied at the start/multiple times throughout the animation.

Mate you must be confused. Flame blast is the #2 ability. I'm not talking about the auto attack.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

Just now, Nimbus Nomad.1237 said:

Mate you must be confused. Flame blast is the #2 ability. I'm not talking about the auto attack.

Realised that just after I posted - names of the skills are too similar. Even so though, will depend on what they change, since Flame Blast can apply burning in two ways, and if they don't buff both of them, it might result in no net change.

 

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

They do not want to touch Impact Savant 😄. It was a pain to get it this stable, let us hope this small change does the trick.

Remember when they told us that they where looking into the issue of the complete deletion of condi scrapper after they remade the trait?  

Not even Pepperridge Farms remember anymore.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Dawdler.8521

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

we all know this nerf is coming bcs the low-tier meta build for engineers after EoD release is gonna be afk mechanist ft build otherwise. imagine a patch where core engi doesnt get hit for the sake of elite specs

[SeTect.5918]

1 hour ago, Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:

we all know this nerf is coming bcs the low-tier meta build for engineers after EoD release is gonna be afk mechanist ft build otherwise.

It would stay scrapper. FT Mechanist isnt that good. as @Infusion.7149already mentioned:

17 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

IMO the problem with it was scrapper quickness uptime

Quickness boosts the FT auto attack by 50%.

The top tier boon Mechanist has access to is alac, alac doesnt help auto attacks at all.
Mechanist also offers passive barrier while spamming auto attack.
The stab from juggernaught trait also gives perma 5% dmg increase from scrapper trait.

Mechanists only thing that supports u is basically the mech, however thats getting nerfed in pvp anyway.

Scrapper supports flamethrower auto attack by a lot.
Mechanist however not.

i dont get why some people think that FT Mechanist would be better than FT Scrapper.

[Infusion.7149]

To add to above discussion, the reason I feel quickness is the issue is due to the low pressure of flamethrower without quickness. If the problem Arenanet has with it is "you can't be CC-ed" unless it's multiple CC attacks due to 1 stack of pulsing stability then nerfing the auto attack DPS by 40% isn't the way to go about that. If DPS uptime is the problem then make it not penetrate through walls and any kiting boxes or whatnot (so turn into non-projectile that follows line of sight). If 2 stacks of stab is the issue then they should hit Applied Force which is a scrapper trait (it has a 10s ICD already) and leave core engineer alone.

When testing at PVP golems even if I run explosives instead of alchemy and berserker amulet you're looking at ~2K DPS without quickness on par with hammer if not worse ; 5 hits per second is barely better than 0.25 cast time for example.

 

https://guildjen.com/flamethrower-scrapper-pvp-build/ --- has quickness

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGF19eGx2Mw  --- Engal's variant has quickness

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Scrapper_-_Flamethrower_Enjoyer   --- no quickness but has more sustain/ stab

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsOvskDA4jU   --- Jebro's older variant with 2nd stack of stab, no quickness (probably before quickness change)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx-WpiMNAT4  --- KROOF's variant with older Kinetic Stabilizers instead of Kinetic Accelerators for quickness

Edited February 19, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

8 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Remember when they told us that they where looking into the issue of the complete deletion of condi scrapper after they remade the trait?  

Not even Pepperridge Farms remember anymore.

I remember. One of them pointed out, they would take a deeper look into Parasitic Contagion to figure out a way to make Impact Savant work on conditions.
https://i.imgflip.com/1ctygo.jpg

Honestly Dawdler, I wish I would not remember every single time they screwed us.

Edited February 19, 2022 by HnRkLnXqZ.1870
someone would report me o/

[Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365]

2 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

It would stay scrapper. FT Mechanist isnt that good. as @Infusion.7149already mentioned:

Quickness boosts the FT auto attack by 50%.

The top tier boon Mechanist has access to is alac, alac doesnt help auto attacks at all.
Mechanist also offers passive barrier while spamming auto attack.
The stab from juggernaught trait also gives perma 5% dmg increase from scrapper trait.

Mechanists only thing that supports u is basically the mech, however thats getting nerfed in pvp anyway.

Scrapper supports flamethrower auto attack by a lot.
Mechanist however not.

i dont get why some people think that FT Mechanist would be better than FT Scrapper.

neither was turret engi. doesnt have to be good to become meta

[Obtena.7952]

Well, it's about time really. I've been WTFBBQing noobs since 2014. It's only ever gotten WORSE since then. 

[Stx.4857]

The build I play the most is Core condi so at least it's getting a small buff.  Not saying I never play Scrapper FT, but it gets boring to me after 2 to 3 games.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

16 hours ago, Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:

we all know this nerf is coming bcs the low-tier meta build for engineers after EoD release is gonna be afk mechanist ft build

 

FT Mechanist is at best an annoying tank to deal with. As a mechanist you deal no damage and you will never kill someone that is slightly competent and the opponent is going to be annoyed at the mechanist just kiting around, dealing no significant damage but not going down either. Well that is if you're not against a necro. Necro can easily dumpster Scrapper FT and Mechanist FT by just turning every boons into condi and win the fight by just keep pressuring new condi and corrupting your boons.

[Puck.3697]

17 hours ago, Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:

we all know this nerf is coming bcs the low-tier meta build for engineers after EoD release is gonna be afk mechanist ft build otherwise. imagine a patch where core engi doesnt get hit for the sake of elite specs

What? 

Flamethrower scrapper isn't even the meta build. It's a pubstomper effectively and the likelyhood is it's getting nerfed because of that. It's not fun to play against. 

Nade holo is the meta spvp specc for spvp and if their true goal was to get mech used in spvp they'd of nerfed holo instead. 

People are bandwagoning this whole "just cuz you want us to use the new elites" far too hard realistically. 

The same as I suspect rune of the trappers gonna get removed soon, because DH and trapper ranger are other pubstomper that generally make the average spvp game unfun. 

For mech, yeah if mech is ever spvp viable we know it will get nerfed due to the outcry of AI. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[bambi.6214]

Core engi getting nerfed because elite spec overperforms, nothing new here...

Hey @Cal Cohen.3527fun fact, engineer players can in fact select 3 trait lines of which none makes them an elite spec! Nobody does so coz you keep gutting the profession, but it is possible to play **core**, non-elite-spec engineer, just like Necro, Guard, Ranger...

[Stalima.5490]

To be honest with you I think we should more be discussing the fact that there are drastically more oppressive builds in the game than the flamethrower, yes, the flamethrower can do alot of damage even to the stupidly high degree but there are a huge number of builds that can more or less triple the output of that yet were not touched at all.

 

If they would simply do a proper balance pass particularly to hit certain damage stacks then there would be far more viable builds because most builds can't even do a quarter of the damage of some of them even when they are made as a damage focus, for example using the rifle in a dps capacity as an engineer will yield not even a fraction of the damage of things like the grenades or Flamethrower, this is because of the 1 damage on the kits avoiding a pvp split somehow, and that isn't even beginning to mention what guardians can do but thats a whole other discussion.

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

To be honest with you I think we should more be discussing the fact that there are drastically more oppressive builds in the game than the flamethrower, yes, the flamethrower can do alot of damage even to the stupidly high degree but there are a huge number of builds that can more or less triple the output of that yet were not touched at all.

 

If they would simply do a proper balance pass particularly to hit certain damage stacks then there would be far more viable builds because most builds can't even do a quarter of the damage of some of them even when they are made as a damage focus, for example using the rifle in a dps capacity as an engineer will yield not even a fraction of the damage of things like the grenades or Flamethrower, this is because of the 1 damage on the kits avoiding a pvp split somehow, and that isn't even beginning to mention what guardians can do but thats a whole other discussion.

I don't think you understand the reason behind the nerf. It wasn't about the level of 'oppressive' DPS the build had. The DPS change appears to simply to discourage people from using it until they have a solution for the real problem with FT. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Stand The Wall.6987]

they set themselves up for failure back when they nerfed the #2 skill too hard and made it an auto spamming weapon.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Btw, a misconception I've seen in these threads is that Quickness increases Flamethrower DPS by 50%. This is incorrect, Quickness only adds 33% DPS since its a cast time reduction, not an attack speed increase.

 

From the wiki: "Increasing the casting speed by 50% means an actual reduction of casting times of just 33%."

2.25/1.5=1.5, 1.5/2.25=0.66

 

I realise this is confusing because this game doesn't actually have autohits as a baked-in mechanic of the weapon, but rather everything is a skill/spell and the autoattack is just a low-cooldown ability that's set to go off on its own. As a result "attack speed" increases are less effective than they would be in other games.

 

The problem is the pulsing Stability, nothing more. In fact on Qiuckness build Scrapper gives up some of that Stability; by taking alternate minor and GM traits they can double-up on Juggernaught.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mass_Momentum

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Applied_Force

 

Both of these traits have to be sacrificed to take Quickness/Superspeed Wells.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[Stalima.5490]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't think you understand the reason behind the nerf. It wasn't about the level of 'oppressive' DPS the build had. The DPS change appears to simply to discourage people from using it until they have a solution for the real problem with FT. 

If that were even remotely true then they would not have touched the FT damage at all, you do not say that stability is an issue then not specifically nerf the stability, if you did then you would be into some c'thulu nonesense.

[LilBiM.3581]

Well the nerf is going to be permanent whether we like it or not. Maybe like @Stand The Wall.6987 said they could load more burns onto FT1 unload FT2 from having as many burns but increase it's burst damage. So that atleast it matches the effect of the animation.

 

It's rare to see anyone walk back changes that were made though so I'd expect to see future nerfs coming to the stab + might trait, perhaps in PvP they will give it an 8s pulse with 4s stab and that will be the death of that as well as to up-tune the stab to 5 stacks of might every 8s. If you want perma stab, you take 100% boon duration in your build. You can still build good might as a traited Scrapper if you camp it, but 1/4 decent people should have you man-handled by then.