Let me get this straight

[Zacchary.6183]

15 minutes ago, itspomf.9523 said:

 

It's ALMOST like if we capped stealth off combo fields -- or eliminated it completely -- this one source of so much pain would just ... disappear.

Pun intended.

Just turn black powder into a dark field.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

10 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

What you're seeing here isn't Thief being weak, it's Thief hitting what was considered "mechanical superiority" too early and as a result when every other class are given options that catch up to them, their mechanical edge is stripped away to reveal what a fundamentally simplistic class design with no thought around proper balancing results in. 

Think about it. Why do you think so many Thief side arguments defend Stealth so much, despite it being such a proven toxic variable in the PvP scene, so much so that even Rangers, Engis and Trapper Rune users get so much flak for it? It's because Thief fundamentally breaks the moment Stealth is removed from the equation. There are several other things about Thief that just snaps like a twig when tweaked just a little bit, like Ini cost (everyone remembers of the SB5 meltdown) and Steal being the single most loaded skill in the entire game, being able to generate to 10~ effects in a single button press on a 17s cooldown. But without all these, Thief just doesn't function. If a class needs really toxic or borderline busted variables to walk, maybe it's time to perform that much needed operation and rework Thief. 

Thief will never improve if it doesn't play by the same rules as the others, because you either risk having it being way too strong, or you do a little tweaking and the class falls apart. 

Rev used to be like Thief, playing with different rules, having really busted skills on the reasoning that it costs Energy, but look how far Rev has fallen in the competitive scene. Thief is slowly treading the ground that Rev has walked before. 

I agree with the person above me. Very well stated.

I would like to see some sort of balance or a retooling around revealed / stealth for the whole game. There's some talk about it in another thread here actually. I particularly like this idea.
 

 

[Yasai.3549]

6 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Yes, thief is overpowered mechanically. That doesn't mean it isn't manageable, but the simple fact that it plays differently and requires different tactics to perform is the reason why people have trouble with it. And on top of that, this disparity attracts players with more situational awareness, resource management skill and tactical sense than the average player because that is the only way a person can excel at it. So out of the box, a good thief has an advantage in spite of the numerous nerfs it has incurred, but is a frail profession to balance because its borderline useless to the average player outside very niche situation. So when thief gets nerfed again, it filters out the lower skilled thieves and leaves the more skilled thieves to continue to wreck face. The cycle has continued on like this since launch. This is why thief has a high skill floor and ceiling.

My overarching problem is that there are too many people getting blasted, and instead of coming up with a solution they come with calls for deletion/nerfs. At which point, I consider the lack of forethought as a symptom of the real cause of players' plight with the profession. This can be somewhat remedied by just playing the profession, but also leads to another issue.

Let's just say Anet deletes thief. Some of the thief population uninstalls, others find another main. Those good thieves who decided to stay eventually start wrecking the very same people who complained about thief with their new main because they are more easily capable of hitting the skill ceiling with their new main. What then? Are the ones who are getting wrecked going to realize there may have been a skill issue or are they going to complain that X is OP because it killed them?

To all this, I'll just reply with "Pistol 5 > Dagger 2"

 

Find me another class in this game that can repeat a pocket stealth combo like this multiple times every 3-4s.

 

This isn't because Pistol 5 Dagger 2 are inherently strong, not at all. It's being enabled by Ini system. Ultimately this brings the skill floor all the way down and gave birth to the "Ez thief" stereotype because even the weakest thief at the fundamental level can perform this combo and book it. 

 

The reason why people want Thief nerfs despite already being extremely weak is because it's simply mechanically on another level than the other professions.

 

My opinion is to step away or rework the Ini system and buff Thief across the board. When Thief is playing on a level closer to other classes, it's easier to moniter and balance it.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Zacchary.6183]

1 minute ago, Yasai.3549 said:

To all this, I'll just reply with "Pistol 5 > Dagger 2"

 

Find me another class in this game that can repeat a pocket stealth combo like this multiple times every 3-4s.

 

This isn't because Pistol 5 Dagger 2 are inherently strong, not at all. It's being enabled by Ini system. Ultimately this brings the skill floor all the way down and gave birth to the "Ez thief" stereotype because even the weakest thief at the fundamental level can perform this combo and book it. 

 

The reason why people want Thief nerfs despite already being extremely weak is because it's simply mechanically on another level than the other professions.

 

My opinion is to step away or rework the Ini system and buff Thief across the board. When Thief is playing on a level closer to other classes, it's easier to moniter and balance it.

 

4 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Just turn black powder into a dark field.

 

[Yasai.3549]

6 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

 

 

Ah but then that becomes an issue with the Stealth Thief community because besides DE, they can't easily enter Stealth and thus lose a chunk of damage and utility from Stealth Attacks.

 

It's not a simple solution as to just go "how bout we don't do that anymore"(This is Anet balance style btw) it needs to be looked at with more depth and theory.

 

A long standing suggestion is to cap Stealth from Fields, but that isn't even a huge issue anymore because the 1 shot stealth Thief is no longer a thing. It's the constant access to stealth that needs to be CURBED not REMOVED.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Zacchary.6183]

1 hour ago, Yasai.3549 said:

 

Hence "turn black powder into a dark field". It is the biggest offender and has been the center of most of thief's problems since it became meta. There are plenty of potential builds thief can use. But anet won't know what's really lacking until the builds are put into practice. All they know is stealth is a problem and giving thieves damage/utility/role without nerfing stealth is going to make the playerbase incredibly salty. That's why they nerfed deathblossom, unload and impacting disruption.

Thief meta is pretty much welded to d/x no matter where it finds itself. The number of attempts at curbing it never really succeeded and only made the profession worse. So, turn black powder into a dark field to get rid of the biggest offender and then start buffing the rest as needed.

Constantly changing stealth and interactions with it is not going to solve the playerbase's skill issue or anet's lack of insight and their bias, or thief players' reliance on stealth. Thus fueling the most persistent problem in this game's history. But cutting the one chain keeping all these problems from improving will at least get the ball rolling on making thief a better profession. Making stealth attacks more rare will justify making them stronger. Making stealth less accessible will justify making non-stealth builds stronger and more viable.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Zacchary.6183

[itspomf.9523]

To anyone saying it's unfair that Thief gets Initiative and that it falls apart each time they tweak the numbers, I invite you to browse the Firebrand forums and look up the absolute debacle that surrounded the rework of Firebrand tome pages.

You know, the thing that's basically the Initiative system by another name.

[Yasai.3549]

4 hours ago, itspomf.9523 said:

To anyone saying it's unfair that Thief gets Initiative and that it falls apart each time they tweak the numbers, I invite you to browse the Firebrand forums and look up the absolute debacle that surrounded the rework of Firebrand tome pages.

You know, the thing that's basically the Initiative system by another name.

You're welcome to complain after the Rev community gets a turn to voice their greviences.

 

Unlike Firebrand who only has a system governing their tomes or Thief that has a system governing their weapon skills, Revenant has a system governing both weapon skills and utilities with the added double whammy of having cooldowns on all of them. 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

10 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

You're welcome to complain after the Rev community gets a turn to voice their greviences.

 

Unlike Firebrand who only has a system governing their tomes or Thief that has a system governing their weapon skills, Revenant has a system governing both weapon skills and utilities with the added double whammy of having cooldowns on all of them. 

But rev has loads of cc and utility with the legend swap and effectively double the a ulities of both thieves and guardian. Tbh if rev got lower cds in exchange of an ammo system it could work. Personally, i want the old misplacement aura back when reviving on mallyx. Watching people get ported away was nice

Edited February 14, 2023 by Lithril Ashwalker.6230

[Yasai.3549]

2 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

But rev has loads of cc and utility with the legend swap and effectively double the a ulities of both thieves and guardian.

You speak as if having 3 Tomes each with 5 unique skills isn't exactly rivaling/surpassing a regular ol Revenant in terms of utility and CC. Aight. 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 2/8/2023 at 3:37 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

This is coming from one of the players who hates fighting thief. 

Thief might we the weakest class in the game right now. Taking all game modes into account. 

Pre EoD, thief's mobility + stealth meant that players had little agency when fighting against a competent one. In order to kill the thief, you had to bait them into greeding or making a mistake because the thief had the tools to dictate when and where the fights happened and could easily disengage unfavorable situations and re-engage when circumstances were more favorable for them. 

Post EoD, mobility has been handed out like candy. Even Necromancer and Guardan has been made more mobile with the release of Harb and Willbender, and classes that previously lacked shadowsteps were given shadowsteps. 

Players have more agency when fighting thief than they did pre-EoD. While this is a good thing, it also means that thief has lost the one advantage it used to have. Now that other classes have an easier time keeping up with it, it's high time to give back to thief some of what was taken away. Perhaps in this new landscape, they can tune the cost of IA back down a bit. Undo some of the nerfs to S/P and S/D. Dare I say, even make staff viable again? 

In the past I would have said "staff is pretty unhealthy with all the evades it has". But then Virtuoso came out. Constant aegis spam, 5 second invuln. Additional invuln on blade renewal. Another block on f4. Additional blocks/evades on scepter and sword. I think the bar for what is acceptable has changed. 

 

This is correct, but because people can't tab target or maintain object permanence they will pretend it isn't. 

Quote

To anyone saying it's unfair that Thief gets Initiative and that it falls apart each time they tweak the numbers, I invite you to browse the Firebrand forums and look up the absolute debacle that surrounded the rework of Firebrand tome pages.

You know, the thing that's basically the Initiative system by another name.

Also correct and hilarious. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 2/8/2023 at 3:37 PM, Kuma.1503 said:

This is coming from one of the players who hates fighting thief. 

Thief might we the weakest class in the game right now. Taking all game modes into account. 

Pre EoD, thief's mobility + stealth meant that players had little agency when fighting against a competent one. In order to kill the thief, you had to bait them into greeding or making a mistake because the thief had the tools to dictate when and where the fights happened and could easily disengage unfavorable situations and re-engage when circumstances were more favorable for them. 

Post EoD, mobility has been handed out like candy. Even Necromancer and Guardan has been made more mobile with the release of Harb and Willbender, and classes that previously lacked shadowsteps were given shadowsteps. 

Players have more agency when fighting thief than they did pre-EoD. While this is a good thing, it also means that thief has lost the one advantage it used to have. Now that other classes have an easier time keeping up with it, it's high time to give back to thief some of what was taken away. Perhaps in this new landscape, they can tune the cost of IA back down a bit. Undo some of the nerfs to S/P and S/D. Dare I say, even make staff viable again? 

In the past I would have said "staff is pretty unhealthy with all the evades it has". But then Virtuoso came out. Constant aegis spam, 5 second invuln. Additional invuln on blade renewal. Another block on f4. Additional blocks/evades on scepter and sword. I think the bar for what is acceptable has changed. 

Which is a problem in the scope of those professions more than anything.  X thing being stronger than others in some aspect, and ANet complying by buffing everything to match that is how we got into this cycle in the first place.  Thief doesn't need much in the scope of buffs.  The wildly-overbloated professions need nerfs in-line with the core game.

The elite spec concept evidently exists to make PvE players live out their anime-power-fantasies, and not to slightly diversity and add nuance to core gameplay as they were marketed in HoT and why competitive players bought into the idea.

It's why for the most part, all core professions have been bordering on unplayable for years, and why ANet has done nothing to pull back the powercreep despite it being the primary source of the competitive modes' decline.  They just don't care to rein it in, and Pandora's Box is open for the PvE players who will throw a fit if numbers ever go down or the classes become less-busted.

It's why I really no longer care to play much at all.  I love this game, but holy hell is it bad.