Larger low-medium health difference?

[Mell.4873]

4 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Low health != low armor. This is specifically aimed at low health classes, and would not affect a necromancer.
Low health is elementalist (light armor), thief (medium armor) and guardian (heavy armor).

Also, for context, the differences between Defense values on armors at level 80, ascended quality is 967, 1118, 1271, which is a 15,6 and 13,7% difference.

My point I still valid maybe should have said that mesmer won't be affected like I did with necro. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Because, of course, these are things that medium/high HP classes have zero access to 🤔

And do they have them in the same amount as the lower HP classes? Can a warrior or necro slap +5 evades and perma blind on their bar like certain low HP classes? 

[Stx.4857]

I'm not sure it's an issue the way the game is currently balanced.  Due to the extreme amounts of evades and self healing, my Thief feels tankier than my Engineer and Warrior.  I don't play Ele much, but weaver can deal damage in full defensive gear just as fast as most of the classes can in glass gear, plus the class has additional heals and survival cooldowns built in.  Guardian I don't play either but I think it's obvious that class needs no extra survival.

[Ragnar.4257]

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

And do they have them in the same amount as the lower HP classes? Can a warrior or necro slap +5 evades and perma blind on their bar like certain low HP classes? 

Maybe not necro, but Rev, Ranger, Engi, Mesmer, all have high access to blocks, blinds, evades or invulns. Even spellbreaker has decent coverage (it has other issues, but not this). It is significantly easier to land hits on a guardian that's trying to block you than it is to land hits on a rev that is chaining blocks, evades, and kiting around with superspeed. And necro has, you know, a 2nd HP bar instead of evades/blocks.

It used to be true, back in 2012, that ele and guardian had much better healing-over-time and therefore justified lower HP, but that difference has been crept out of existance. A 40% HP difference from low to medium is really difficult to justify in 2022.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

49 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Maybe not necro, but Rev, Ranger, Engi, Mesmer, all have high access to blocks, blinds, evades or invulns. Even spellbreaker has decent coverage (it has other issues, but not this). It is significantly easier to land hits on a guardian that's trying to block you than it is to land hits on a rev that is chaining blocks, evades, and kiting around with superspeed. And necro has, you know, a 2nd HP bar instead of evades/blocks.

It used to be true, back in 2012, that ele and guardian had much better healing-over-time and therefore justified lower HP, but that difference has been crept out of existance. A 40% HP difference from low to medium is really difficult to justify in 2022.

And yet Guardian got even more blocks, and sustain with new especs. Tempest itself has strong sustain over time, and Weaver can bring 5 evades on their bar, barrier application built in, and extra vitality. Thief got MORE dodges on Daredevil along with more evades/block skills, and increased vitatlity.

I think there is a stronger argument that the medium HP professions (Ranger: with 7 evades + 3s Block + prot, Engi: lol Explosives+Elixirs, Mesmer: multiple Blur applications) should receive a HP nerf rather than the lower HP classes getting an HP buff.

Though this is all legacy BS that has been hashed out over the years since 2012 and the only time you see it change is with the especs that get released.

[Ragnar.4257]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

And yet Guardian got even more blocks, and sustain with new especs. Tempest itself has strong sustain over time, and Weaver can bring 5 evades on their bar, barrier application built in, and extra vitality. Thief got MORE dodges on Daredevil along with more evades/block skills, and increased vitatlity.

I think there is a stronger argument that the medium HP professions (Ranger: with 7 evades + 3s Block + prot, Engi: lol Explosives+Elixirs, Mesmer: multiple Blur applications) should receive a HP nerf rather than the lower HP classes getting an HP buff.

Though this is all legacy BS that has been hashed out over the years since 2012 and the only time you see it change is with the especs that get released.

And yet, no guardian/DH/FB spec, no tempest spec, no thief spec, has been a proper bunker "menace" in the last 6 years in the same way that, for instance, bunker-chrono, prot-holo, bunker-scrapper, knight-ranger, have. The only low-HP bunker ever has been water-weaver.

It's almost like all these 'amazing' defensive abilities you list don't make up for the fact that at 11k HP most builds can kill you in 2 hits, and that infact other classes do also have just as many defensive abilities and that, in actuality, the reason for low/med/high is almost entirely historical and no longer based on any kind of logical design.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, Ragnar.4257 said:

And yet, no guardian/DH/FB spec, no tempest spec, no thief spec, has been a proper bunker "menace" in the last 6 years in the same way that, for instance, bunker-chrono, prot-holo, bunker-scrapper, knight-ranger, have. The only low-HP bunker ever has been water-weaver.

It's almost like all these 'amazing' defensive abilities you list don't make up for the fact that at 11k HP most builds can kill you in 2 hits, and that infact other classes do also have just as many defensive abilities.

And yet you can't kill one of those classes if they decide that they don't want to die. Whether such bunker setups are meta or not is irrelevant as that just means their other builds are just more meta. 

Grant it, there is a distinction to make here relative to game mode. Boz was mainly focused on PvE in the original post, though I think there was also a desire just to buff them for competitive as well, yet even in competitive there is a big difference between PvP and WvW.

You can't kill a Tempest, Weaver, DD, DE, FB, or DH that don't want to die in WvW. They can build to not die, and won't unless they are heavily outnumbered so obviously the base HP isn't the issue it is being made out to be.

[Ragnar.4257]

15 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

And yet you can't kill one of those classes if they decide that they don't want to die. Whether such bunker setups are meta or not is irrelevant as that just means their other builds are just more meta. 

Grant it, there is a distinction to make here relative to game mode. Boz was mainly focused on PvE in the original post, though I think there was also a desire just to buff them for competitive as well, yet even in competitive there is a big difference between PvP and WvW.

You can't kill a Tempest, Weaver, DD, DE, FB, or DH that don't want to die in WvW. They can build to not die, and won't unless they are heavily outnumbered so obviously the base HP isn't the issue it is being made out to be.

Yeah, and you can't kill a ranger or an engi or a warrior or rev or mes that doesn't want to die. These are irrelevant statements that can be made of any class.

I'm mostly speaking to PvP, since its the only place this subject is really relevant.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 minutes ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Yeah, and you can't kill a ranger or an engi or a warrior or rev or mes that doesn't want to die. These are irrelevant statements that can be made of any class.

I'm mostly speaking to PvP, since its the only place this subject is really relevant.

That's fine, but the original post was more focused on PvE. Damage is higher in PvE and WvW, and yet those low HP classes have the options and tools to not get one shot if they are actually used.

[Ragnar.4257]

28 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

That's fine, but the original post was more focused on PvE. Damage is higher in PvE and WvW, and yet those low HP classes have the options and tools to not get one shot if they are actually used.

The difference, is that those low HP classes are shoe-horned into playing the exact same amulets and traits on every single build to mitigate the low HP.

Yeah, a guardian is hard to kill....... if it takes a healing/vit amulet, and 3x defensive traitlines, and weapons that are all defense and zero offense. If it does all that it can be slightly harder to kill than a zerker Herald, yaaay. There's a reason Willbender is not going to come even close to replacing Herald.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

The difference, is that those low HP classes are shoe-horned into playing the exact same amulets and traits on every single build to mitigate the low HP.

Yeah, a guardian is hard to kill....... if it takes a healing/vit amulet, and 3x defensive traitlines, and weapons that are all defense and zero offense. If it does all that it can be slightly harder to kill than a zerker Herald, yaaay. There's a reason Willbender is not going to come even close to replacing Herald.

Sounds like your beef has more to do with the bad balance decisions in PvP than anything to do with the class chassis then.

[draxynnic.3719]

13 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

And do they have them in the same amount as the lower HP classes? Can a warrior or necro slap +5 evades and perma blind on their bar like certain low HP classes? 

Greatsword/shield spellbreaker actually comes pretty close. Long block on the shield, Full Counter, Whirlwing Attack and Bull's Charge are both evades, Endure Pain you technically still take the hits but power damage is zero, and you still have two dodges. Don't have the blinds, but you do have other CC.

Which is not to say that this matches the number of you-can't-hit-me frames a fully defence-oriented daredevil can do, but is it offsetting warriors having  nearly double the health? I don't think so. In my experience, warriors still feel more durable than thieves in any game mode. Thieves do have more disengage potential, and that does justify low health in competitive, but in PvE? 

 

10 hours ago, Stx.4857 said:

I'm not sure it's an issue the way the game is currently balanced.  Due to the extreme amounts of evades and self healing, my Thief feels tankier than my Engineer and Warrior.  I don't play Ele much, but weaver can deal damage in full defensive gear just as fast as most of the classes can in glass gear, plus the class has additional heals and survival cooldowns built in.  Guardian I don't play either but I think it's obvious that class needs no extra survival.

That's just not true. ArenaNet has normalised PvE DPS for the sake of raids such that DPS builds of different professions all do within about 10% of each other's damage. Some builds get to be very strong comparatively in solo PvE due to being able to achieve self-quickness and 100% crit chance independently, but weaver isn't one of those builds.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

47 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Greatsword/shield spellbreaker actually comes pretty close. Long block on the shield, Full Counter, Whirlwing Attack and Bull's Charge are both evades, Endure Pain you technically still take the hits but power damage is zero, and you still have two dodges. Don't have the blinds, but you do have other CC.

Which is not to say that this matches the number of you-can't-hit-me frames a fully defence-oriented daredevil can do, but is it offsetting warriors having  nearly double the health? I don't think so. In my experience, warriors still feel more durable than thieves in any game mode. Thieves do have more disengage potential, and that does justify low health in competitive, but in PvE? 

Everyone has those dodges available (not vind or mirage though, but DD gets an extra one because of balance right?).

FC, WWA, and BC yes are three evades, and yes there is a block on Shield, but EP is not a full immune, it still takes what ever condi comes along with the attack, ditto for FC's block. Other professions also have CCs just like they have dodges, so that itself isn't even a great comparison to bring up as it is fairly balanced in that regard.

Thieves can still perma blind things if they want to on top of their evades in PvE, and if that doesn't work then stealth will cause a target to stop attacking the thief in PvE. That's pretty kitten good sustain so long as it is used right, which is true even for things like FC.

 

[Stx.4857]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Greatsword/shield spellbreaker actually comes pretty close. Long block on the shield, Full Counter, Whirlwing Attack and Bull's Charge are both evades, Endure Pain you technically still take the hits but power damage is zero, and you still have two dodges. Don't have the blinds, but you do have other CC.

Which is not to say that this matches the number of you-can't-hit-me frames a fully defence-oriented daredevil can do, but is it offsetting warriors having  nearly double the health? I don't think so. In my experience, warriors still feel more durable than thieves in any game mode. Thieves do have more disengage potential, and that does justify low health in competitive, but in PvE? 

 

That's just not true. ArenaNet has normalised PvE DPS for the sake of raids such that DPS builds of different professions all do within about 10% of each other's damage. Some builds get to be very strong comparatively in solo PvE due to being able to achieve self-quickness and 100% crit chance independently, but weaver isn't one of those builds.

 

In 100% defensive gear.  This is just one example of a fight, there are plenty others.  If you can deal this much damage in defensive gear, why is 11k base HP a problem?

 

And about raid dps, I'm sure all the classes are pretty close but again, low hp classes have other ways of surviving.  I don't raid, so if low hp is an issue there maybe that can be looked at.  But I played a Thief in dungeons and fractals when the game first launched and yeah the low hp sucked but the amount of evades and blinds more than make up for it.  If you gave thieves 16k base hp that would be insane in all game modes.

Edited February 23, 2022 by Stx.4857

[Jski.6180]

If Hp and def is meanness why not just standardize every thing and put more into gear and let players have more control over how much hp they want to play with.

[The Boz.2038]

10 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Sounds like your beef has more to do with the bad balance decisions in PvP than anything to do with the class chassis then.

Are you implying a several-thousand-HP difference has no balance impact?

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Everyone has those dodges available (not vind or mirage though, but DD gets an extra one because of balance right?).

FC, WWA, and BC yes are three evades, and yes there is a block on Shield, but EP is not a full immune, it still takes what ever condi comes along with the attack, ditto for FC's block. Other professions also have CCs just like they have dodges, so that itself isn't even a great comparison to bring up as it is fairly balanced in that regard.

Thieves can still perma blind things if they want to on top of their evades in PvE, and if that doesn't work then stealth will cause a target to stop attacking the thief in PvE. That's pretty kitten good sustain so long as it is used right, which is true even for things like FC.

 

It's still not exactly a small amount of mitigation, which is also on top of having the highest base armour (which, to be fair, isn't a huge difference) and top health (which is). That's also a case of taking a reasonably common build rather than going full defensive - you could get more blocks by having mace/shield as your swap rather than axe/shield or dagger/shield. Meanwhile, thief tends to be punished harshly as soon as anything gets through their defenses.

I brought up the dodges just to point out that daredevil only has one extra dodge, not three.

 

7 hours ago, Stx.4857 said:

 

In 100% defensive gear.  This is just one example of a fight, there are plenty others.  If you can deal this much damage in defensive gear, why is 11k base HP a problem?

If that's Trailblazer's, it's well known for giving a big defensive boost without hurting condition damage much. You could just as easily run Trailblazer's with scourge or renegade or the like and probably do it about as quickly and with more margin for error.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Are you implying a several-thousand-HP difference has no balance impact?

So long as you aren't ignoring the reasons for that difference.

You are right that the deltas between tiers are not the same, you are not necessarily right about how to rectify that delta as it is just as valid to lower the base HP of the middle tier. It is all a moot point though 10 years into the game's history because that isn't going to change at this point.

[draxynnic.3719]

37 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

So long as you aren't ignoring the reasons for that difference.

You are right that the deltas between tiers are not the same, you are not necessarily right about how to rectify that delta as it is just as valid to lower the base HP of the middle tier. It is all a moot point though 10 years into the game's history because that isn't going to change at this point.

Well... it is. That bonus vitality from the jade bot core is going to benefit low-health professions more than it benefits high-health professions.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Well... it is. That bonus vitality from the jade bot core is going to benefit low-health professions more than it benefits high-health professions.

Considering that Necro's Life Force total is based off of total HP I beg to differ. 

[Jski.6180]

Here a though lets all classes use any type of armor BUT keep the armor as they are light mid heavy. The trick would be to make light armor give more power crit dmg over all aggsvie combo, mid armor would be a very avage combo and heavy would give higher hp and over def combos.

[The Boz.2038]

16 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Here a though lets all classes use any type of armor BUT keep the armor as they are light mid heavy. The trick would be to make light armor give more power crit dmg over all aggsvie combo, mid armor would be a very avage combo and heavy would give higher hp and over def combos.

Jesus christ no

[Jski.6180]

3 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Jesus christ no

The current system is realty messed up anet took every thing from the classes to let player build combo they want but for some reason left hp / armor very from class. Its not like we see higher power on light armor classes and lower power on high armor classes. Its just the nominal path of anet opening up there game to all classes being more "free" to play as they want the bring the player not the class mind set.

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Considering that Necro's Life Force total is based off of total HP I beg to differ. 

It's still going to benefit the 11k health professions more proportionally, since apart from being hit while in shroud (which only applies to core necro and reaper) most things that expend LF expend a percentage of maximum LF rather than a set number. That, and necromancer was already a hard profession to oneshot.

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

I have to argue here about "lasting longer" low hp spec.... 

If you pick warrior with defense traitline, it has reneration+regenerative healing from passive trait and passive healing from signet, on top of that giving might to allies heals warrior. So warrior for example can last much much longer than downed state elee. 

Guy who made this post is having a point. Like why some classes have 19k health and why the other 11k health...it is so dumb and outdated thing. Its not just difference in condi damage % hp taken but also spike damage taken.