Improve Limited Loadout Tabs and general loadout system.

[mythical.6315]

25 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

ToS' are purposefully vague so companies can wield them more effectively at their digression. Being an "exception" as you put it is the best any third party program can hope for, since no sane company would openly endorse or vouch for anything outside of their control (becoming liable for any issues).

Either Arc Templates were not in violation of ToS, or they were technically, but not effectively as tolerated by exception. The result is effectively the same, so I'm not sure why you are arguing about this other than to derail the thread. 

 

It's very unlikely it was in violation though, as the only contenders in the ToS would be "automating gameplay" (via automatically swapping builds), aka botting, or "providing players an unfair advantage" via the quicker build swapping. 

If Anet were to rule those as botting and/or unfair advantage violations, Anet would basically be admitting to selling bots and pay to win features on their Gemstore, since they are now selling those same features they would have marked as such in the free Third Party Application. 

 

This is a futile argument.

What other 3rd party add-ons, which are not against TOS, have required ArenaNet approval to be allowed as well as having conditions upon that approval?  If it wasn’t against TOS then why stop support? Why isn’t there another 3rd party app to do build templates exactly like how ARC template did?

Edited February 24, 2022 by mythical.6315

[Ashantara.8731]

On 2/23/2022 at 12:24 AM, mythical.6315 said:

Out of all of the players who play this game, what percentage actively use all six existing templates/load outs?

All Fractals, Raids, WvW and PvP players I know. The fact that a bigger percentage of PvE open world-only players exists does not devaluate the OP's request.

[mythical.6315]

32 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

All Fractals, Raids, WvW and PvP players I know. The fact that a bigger percentage of PvE open world-only players exists does not devaluate the OP's request.

Which hold little weight as they are observations that are very subjective such as one suggesting to do the x10 mystic clover recipe in the mystic forge because they happened to get 80 in 16 attempts. 

[Ashantara.8731]

51 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

Which hold little weight as they are observations that are very subjective such as one suggesting to do the x10 mystic clover recipe in the mystic forge because they happened to get 80 in 16 attempts. 

The latter was to show that Magic Find does affect it, and I usually always get a lot of Mystic Clover that way - so it wasn't a one-time thing.

Back on topic: when you talk to hundreds of different players over the course of two years (since the loadout system exists), it is definitely not "subjective." And even if it was, it doesn't change a thing about the fact that this has been a request ever since.

Why would you argue against it? What damage would it do to you if the number of loadouts were extended or the current system saw an overhaul?

Edited February 24, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[mythical.6315]

49 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

The latter was to show that Magic Find does affect it, and I usually always get a lot of Mystic Clover that way - so it wasn't a one-time thing.

Back on topic: when you talk to hundreds of different players over the course of two years (since the loadout system exists), it is definitely not "subjective." And even if it was, it doesn't change a thing about the fact that this has been a request ever since.

Why would you argue against it? What damage would it do to you if the number of loadouts were extended or the current system saw an overhaul?

So you go around and ask hundreds of players if they use all available build templates?  Really?

 

Why would I argue against it?  Why would someone argue against the developers allocating resources again to develop more raids?  Why would people argue against the spending of resources for a new race?  Or the ability to change a character’s race?

[KeoLegend.5132]

Im satisfied with the current situation. 

[Astralporing.1957]

On 2/23/2022 at 4:02 PM, mythical.6315 said:

So you’re saying that build templates are causing players to not enter into more serious content despite that content existing before them?

I'm saying that the system that could have helped with removing one of the obstacles on the way towards harder content was designed instead to prevent this from happening by being massively overmonetized, and partially crippled as a result of said monetization.

[mythical.6315]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I'm saying that the system that could have helped with removing one of the obstacles on the way towards harder content was designed instead to prevent this from happening by being massively overmonetized, and partially crippled as a result of said monetization.

Build templates are not needed to complete the harder content in the game.  The lack of build templates is not an obstacle other than what players created upon themselves. 

[Ashantara.8731]

On 2/24/2022 at 8:17 AM, mythical.6315 said:

Why would I argue against it?  Why would someone argue against the developers allocating resources again to develop more raids?  Why would people argue against the spending of resources for a new race?  Or the ability to change a character’s race?

Because they're bored?😅

C'mon, these are two different pairs of shoes. The loadout system is part of the user interface and QoL, the other examples you listed are content. The content creator team does not consist of the same people who are taking care of the technical side of things.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[mythical.6315]

3 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Because they're bored?😅

C'mon, these are two different pairs of shoes. The loadout system is part of the user interface and QoL, the other examples you listed are content. The content creator team does not consist of the same people who are taking care of the technical side of things.

Both require resources. 

[Ashantara.8731]

16 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

Both require resources. 

But not the same kind of resources. A programmer cannot design raid instances; a designer cannot program things like the loadout system (the UI for it already exists).

Therefore, your logic is flawed. No player would suffer a loss of content if the loadout system was upgraded with additional slots.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[mythical.6315]

17 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

But not the same kind of resources. A programmer cannot design raid instances; a designer cannot program things like the loadout system (the UI for it already exists).

Therefore, your logic is flawed. No player would suffer a loss of content if the loadout system was upgraded with additional slots.

It doesn’t matter as the argument wasn’t about specific resources even though none of us really knows how they allocate them. All refer back to my post and see that I had included non-content upgrades as well which you overlooked.

[Ashantara.8731]

27 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

It doesn’t matter as the argument wasn’t about specific resources [...]

Indeed. The argument was about why some people would insist on naysaying when it comes to a loadout extension when there is no valid reason for it as it wouldn't affect them negatively in any way.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Ashantara.8731
typo

[Sigmoid.7082]

1 hour ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Indeed. The argument was about why some people would insist on naysaying when it comes to a loadout extension when there is no valid reason for it as it wouldn't affect them negatively in any way.

Doesn't really matter what the resource is because everything requires resources and resources are finite. Every time someone is working on something it means they are not working on something else. 

 

You are getting to hung up on the examples and content bs design.  Even within their own silos their resources are finite and working on content A means not working on content B, or working on UI change A means not working on UI change B etc. 

 

It's a little naive to say it doesn't affect them because doing one thing means delaying or not doing something else because only so many things can progress at any one given time. 

 

You say mythicals logic is flawed but you also completely ignore that an item on the board may require multiple teams of different skills to work on it to get it over the line. Nothing is often ever as clean as "only team A is going to work on this thing". Even if it was just a UI change to amend loadouts, unlikely, it could mean there is another bit of content that is now waiting for or delayed because its UI work has been pushed back or having resources split between. 

 

Resource management and return on investment are a thing. 

[Astralporing.1957]

18 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

Build templates are not needed to complete the harder content in the game.  The lack of build templates is not an obstacle other than what players created upon themselves. 

You got it all backwards. It's not that the lack of build templates is an obstacle. It's that the well-working (and unmonetized) template system could have helped to remove one of the obstacles. Said obstacle being the lack of knowledge of proper builds among the playerbase.

Basically, the easier it is to change builds, and trasfer (in-game) the knowledge of said build to other players, the more we remove the dependency of active thinking about said things (and requirements of having to go outside of the game for learning). Monetizing said system to the point only players already invested in the "meta game" would ever be interested in paying for it, and as a result of monetization changes crippling the system to be far less useful it could have been otherwise practically removes its ability to be of any help here.

So, an opportunity totally wasted, because someone was too greedy.

[mythical.6315]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You got it all backwards. It's not that the lack of build templates is an obstacle. It's that the well-working (and unmonetized) template system could have helped to remove one of the obstacles. Said obstacle being the lack of knowledge of proper builds among the playerbase.

Basically, the easier it is to change builds, and trasfer (in-game) the knowledge of said build to other players, the more we remove the dependency of active thinking about said things (and requirements of having to go outside of the game for learning). Monetizing said system to the point only players already invested in the "meta game" would ever be interested in paying for it, and as a result of monetization changes crippling the system to be far less useful it could have been otherwise practically removes its ability to be of any help here.

So, an opportunity totally wasted, because someone was too greedy.

Players get proper builds from outside of the game. Even with that access to that knowledge prior to templates being available, many players still never used proper builds. Players can still use proper builds with the current build template system.  You’re making the build template out to be something that it is not. 
 

As for the second part of your post, I blelieve the OP is asking for the amount of build templates to be increased from six to whatever. Others have been arguing about the necessity of having many many build templates which requires them to buy additional ones. You’re arguing about something that’s really not the topic of this thread. 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

26 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

Players get proper builds from outside of the game. Even with that access to that knowledge prior to templates being available, many players still never used proper builds. Players can still use proper builds with the current build template system.  You’re making the build template out to be something that it is not. 

Most players never actually look for third party sources for that at all. In order to spread that kind of knowledge, it needs an in-game source or mechanic to faciliate that. Build templates could have been such a method, but Anet decided otherwise.

 

26 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

As for the second part of your post, I blelieve the OP is asking for the amount of build templates to be increased from six to whatever. Others have been arguing about the necessity of having many many build templates which requires them to buy additional ones. You’re arguing about something that’s really not the topic of this thread.

I have addressed that too. Just in other posts. But of you want me to repeat myself - i don't think offering to subsidize Anet's ideas to break this game in order to overmonetize it are a good idea.

The necessity of having many build templates is a real thing, of course, but adding more monetized loadout slots to a badly-designed system is not the way to solve it.

[mythical.6315]

14 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Most players never actually look for third party sources for that at all. In order to spread that kind of knowledge, it needs an in-game source or mechanic to faciliate that. Build templates could have been such a method, but Anet decided otherwise.

 

I have addressed that too. Just in other posts. But of you want me to repeat myself - i don't think offering to subsidize Anet's ideas to break this game in order to overmonetize it are a good idea.

The necessity of having many build templates is a real thing, of course, but adding more monetized loadout slots to a badly-designed system is not the way to solve it.

We’ve gone almost 10 years without an in game source. Why is it suddenly required by you?

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, mythical.6315 said:

We’ve gone almost 10 years without an in game source. Why is it suddenly required by you?

It's not "required". It would be convenient if you wanted to increase player participation in high-end content, but that increased participation is not required either. Nor is high-end content in general.

[Asum.4960]

21 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

Build templates are not needed to complete the harder content in the game.  The lack of build templates is not an obstacle other than what players created upon themselves. 

It's not about need or requirement, nor does it matter if it was the same or worse before - we are talking about limitations and problems now, of a system aimed at limiting exactly these problems. 

I can guarantee you there are thousands of players playing the game with their 2 free favourite OW (or whatever) builds who at some point considered getting into more hardcore (or different) content, then think about having to give up one of their familiar OW builds for that or having to purchase another set of Build&Equipment slots for 10€ - and then decide to just not bother instead. 

 

People drastically underestimate how little it takes in terms of obstacles in game design to lose players - often not even as major conscious choice but just slight obstacles in thoughts in passing. 

Not having enough "Templates" definitely is a "Quit Moment", and minimizing those moments as much as possible is one of the primary objectives of making a product, especially a video game, and even more so an MMO. 

You can minimize or reframe that as much as you like (or blame the players), but it's a thing.

 

8 hours ago, Sigmoid.7082 said:

Doesn't really matter what the resource is because everything requires resources and resources are finite. Every time someone is working on something it means they are not working on something else. 

Of course it matters what the resource is. The UI already supports additional slots and apparently the code does too (I mean, we are talking about literally bits of information here, it would be shocking if the engine couldn't handle that). So if the resource it takes would be just one person changing one line of code, then obviously they should do it - it would be near free extra revenue and player retention. If it takes vastly more than that, sure, it becomes debatable. So really, what the resource is is all that matters.

But to compare it with the development of entire content avenues is laughable in any case. 

[mythical.6315]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

It's not about need or requirement, nor does it matter if it was the same or worse before - we are talking about limitations and problems now, of a system aimed at limiting exactly these problems. 

I can guarantee you there are thousands of players playing the game with their 2 free favourite OW (or whatever) builds who at some point considered getting into more hardcore (or different) content, then think about having to give up one of their familiar OW builds for that or having to purchase another set of Build&Equipment slots for 10€ - and then decide to just not bother instead. 

 

People drastically underestimate how little it takes in terms of obstacles in game design to lose players - often not even as major conscious choice but just slight obstacles in thoughts in passing. 

Not having enough "Templates" definitely is a "Quit Moment", and minimizing those moments as much as possible is one of the primary objectives of making a product, especially a video game, and even more so an MMO. 

You can minimize or reframe that as much as you like (or blame the players), but it's a thing.

You say it’s not about need or requirement except everyone is making the argument that it is. People are inventing an issue and using more build templates as the solution. 

[Asum.4960]

16 minutes ago, mythical.6315 said:

You say it’s not about need or requirement except everyone is making the argument that it is. People are inventing an issue and using more build templates as the solution. 

I'm not, so clearly not everyone - and you are responding to me.

The existence of the feature is proof of the issue being very much so real. Players wouldn't be making and downloading community tools, let alone now pay for an Anet made solution to solve a problem that doesn't exist. To think that just because in your personal experience you don't care for them means that's reality for everybody is more than a bit audacious. 

 

Anet already spent the lion's share of the resources to create the system to alleviate the problem - that it now doesn't do it well enough is the waste, not expanding or improving it slightly so it can better fulfil it's purpose towards it's main target demographic.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Asum.4960

[mythical.6315]

12 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

I'm not, so clearly not everyone - and you are responding to me.

The existence of the feature is proof of the issue being very much so real. Players wouldn't be making and downloading community tools, let alone now pay for an Anet made solution to solve a problem that doesn't exist. To think that just because in your personal experience you don't care for them means that's reality for everybody is more than a bit audacious. 

 

Anet already spent the lion's share of the resources to create the system to alleviate the problem - that it now doesn't do it well enough is the waste, not expanding or improving it slightly so it can better fulfil it's purpose towards it's main target demographic.

I never said that I didn’t care about build templates. This is something that you made up on your own. 
 

The thread is likely over now based on this Reddit thread. 
 

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by mythical.6315

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Loadouts are arguably ANet's worst implementation of anything in the game.  The system was designed as is not to offer  better functionality to those who were using the free ARC system.  It was designed to offer some functionality to players who did NOT use ARC, and to milk the ones who did.

[The Boz.2038]

Utterly immune to reason and arguments.

Still didn't say what you think I said, BTW.