"Fixed a bug that caused legend swapping to activate certain sigils that activate when swapping weapons."

[Mini Crinny.6190]

4 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

It was not a bug.  Check theses links with posts from Roy Cronacher, former Anet Dev and lead designer of the entire Revenant class. 
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Weapon-Swap-Sigils/page/1#post5305274
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Lets-Chat-Revenant-Masters-of-the-Mist/page/2#post4807746

Ahh I didnt see this post, I guess the current devs think that it shouldn't exist so changed it then /shrug just anet things I guess

[captrowdy.9561]

I sure do miss my cleansing and energy on legend swap. This hurt in WvW. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by captrowdy.9561

[Angesombre.4630]

I think it's a shame to nerf an ability that was originally given just because of the new legend, when it could have been set correctly. Just a question of timer. However, I don't understand what is more annoying today than yesterday with the new legend that the developers themselves made on purpose for this class. It also allowed us to keep the weapon we were using without changing weapon, which allowed us to continue to do dps with the appropriate weapon. But as there will be no feedback on the post to the dev.

Otherwise I'll say in advance that it's not because Anet decides to do something that it's necessarily the best. And it's not because they make a decision that we can't express our opinion. Because I'm already waiting for the comment that Anet wanted it this way so it has to be this way. And yet there will be no more argumentation in the comment :p.

[Zaret.1450]

On 3/4/2022 at 2:18 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

When people don't understand how the game works ... they claim Anet doesn't have 'logic' to the changes they make. It's awesome to see sometimes. 

It is weird they call it a bug ... but it could have been an unintended effect on Revenant and they just never got to changing it. I mean, without understanding their timetable, you could argue almost every change is illogical because it's been in the game for a certain amount of time. That's just a fallacy. 

ok i agree it might be unintended and they didnt got to solve it, but how come they solve "bugs" as they call them that are beneffiting a class and not the true bugs like skill disorder and all those bugs rev has, also i could understand saying, it makes rev too powerfull so were gona nerf it, ok but this nerf only works on hibrid and condi builds, hibrids i guess are only played on pvp wvw or open world? cos i never saw one on raid nor fract, if it was a mean to nerf condis/hibrids great because i hate them nerfing devastation, the power traitline to nerf condi rene when that just makes power nerfed too and much more than condi, id like if, at least, they made changes to rev that were reasonable and were well thought, not just " condi rene ia op so nerf devastation" wouldnt be better to nerf corruption mallynx or something like that? the same goes for vindi, compared to renegade (both on power builds) rene has just a tiny less dmg but has a fire field, has a ton more cc and is overall better than vindi, even on hibrid, condi, or whatever build you want to use renegade just has the upper hand, wouldnt it make more sense if renegade got less power dmg and focused more on its condi/hibrid builds and vindi focused more on power and healing( yeah im not counting herald because in end pve you can only use it as a somewhat heal alac wich vindi can also do but a bit worse) dunno i mean pve pvp and wvw are separate now so we could get a good balance for once, not just vindi but other clases too

[Telgum.6071]

This change is awful. The sigil trigger on legend swap was part of Herald's combat flow, where you could activate cleansing or hydromancy sigil without swapping to staff and losing all the damage that double swords bring.

Mallyx is guted, Ventari is useless, Shiro has an obscene energy cost on every single skill save the healing. What the hell is Arenanet doing to Revenant?

[Angesombre.4630]

Not to mention that it's supposedly "a bug" that couldn't be solved since the release of the revenant, the expansion comes out, the vindicator and that the problem has been solved? This seems far-fetched to me.

It's still taking people for idiots, sorry for the term.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[Thornwolf.9721]

On 3/7/2022 at 9:27 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

I am ... because Anet can change how they want the game to work at ANY TIME.  And yes, I'm also ignoring how other classes trigger Swap sigils because they aren't Revenants. We are talking about revenants. Anet doesn't want Revenants to trigger swap sigils on legend swap ... so they changed it. That's not wrong just because some other class does something else. 

Then remove the feature on all classes and make it that no skill, mechanic or otherwise outside of the weapon swap proc's the sigils. It doesn't matter if they "can" what matters is that they are consistent.  So nerf the others and remove it from them too. This way its fair and we can have it across the board as we normally do.

There really is no defending this baseless decision from out of touch dev's who don't play, know or care about the class outside of their own inability to look back at one of their old coworkers the ones who created rev mind you to see it was intended.

[Obtena.7952]

43 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

Then remove the feature on all classes and make it that no skill, mechanic or otherwise outside of the weapon swap proc's the sigils. It doesn't matter if they "can" what matters is that they are consistent.  So nerf the others and remove it from them too. This way its fair and we can have it across the board as we normally do.

There really is no defending this baseless decision from out of touch dev's who don't play, know or care about the class outside of their own inability to look back at one of their old coworkers the ones who created rev mind you to see it was intended.

Believe what you want ... what I believe is what is real. They did it. It's not changing back. THAT is real. If you want, you can try to understand why they did it (it's not hard ... they told us) or you can come up with your own version, completely irrelevant to what is real. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Thornwolf.9721]

13 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Believe what you want ... what I believe is what is real. They did it. It's not changing back. THAT is real. If you want, you can try to understand why they did it (it's not hard ... they told us) or you can come up with your own version, completely irrelevant to what is real. 

Whats real is they are incapable of doing anything good when it comes to class design or balance. Real or not it doesn't mean it was good and it has pushed me off the class; Along with the rest of their dumb changes. So hopefully they will finish killing it and just remove it and give us a profession change voucher for our trouble~

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Thornwolf.9721 said:

Whats real is they are incapable of doing anything good when it comes to class design or balance. Real or not it doesn't mean it was good and it has pushed me off the class; Along with the rest of their dumb changes. So hopefully they will finish killing it and just remove it and give us a profession change voucher for our trouble~

Well, again, whatever you want to believe. That won't change it though. Nothing stops you from changing classes so ?

Edited March 22, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Buran.3796]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Believe what you want ... what I believe is what is real. They did it. It's not changing back. THAT is real. If you want, you can try to understand why they did it (it's not hard ... they told us) 

   I don't care the change (as I said weeks ago), but I don't buy the reason. Was not a bug the same as the activation of the sigils changing attunements in Eles, kits in Engies or moving in/out from shroud in Necros is not a bug. Was a deliberated choice that for some reason now they chose to change it. Also don't buy your argument that they won't change it because is all about damage control and public perception: they backpedaled 180º in the past with the nerf of Shiro's Phase Traversal which inflamed the forums. Is just that this time we don't care enough about the change.

   But don't wield the "bug fix" argument when the whole class is a can of wurms in terms of bugs, and EoD only added more to the spaghetti-code fiesta.

   And by the way was a weird nerf: condi Rev using legend swap to trigger sigils wasn't a meta thing at any game mode (thanx to Mallyx being teared to pieces). Was like seen three kids bullying a smaller one and seen ANet as the teacher entering in the figth to kick him in the guts. 

[Thornwolf.9721]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, again, whatever you want to believe. That won't change it though. Nothing stops you from changing classes so ?

You know, I really can't stand folks like you. "Oh well, your class got screwed and is not not enjoyable. Just move to a new class." 

As someone who has done this in numerous games; There is only so many jumps one can make before you begin to question "why bother". I shouldn't have to change classes to enjoy the game; They shouldn't remove class mechanics and pieces of a class that make it feel fun to play. Granted you could tone them down and make them less of a "oh holy crap" mechanic; Or less overall impactful but it's not about the damage its about the fundamentals of what rev is. Many of us move to the class because it was unique to guild wars 2; It was the heavy armored class that sat squarely with messmer as one of the most unique of their cast of classes. A good portion of these changes as they continue to take place just makes less and less of rev feel present; Sure you still channel legends. But how many actually feel good to use/impactful? What out of core? Mallyx/jalis. Ventari and shiro are both laughable. 

The elite specs sure are unique among one another but the issue stands that herald feels bad right now, Renegade is a meme that just got out of control and honestly has become what people use to define "Revenant". I know people who think renegade is the actual class and the rest is just there for cosmetic value. (Lol) Vindicator is clunky and not that inspired or great; It feels lack-luster when you compare it to both herald at its inception or renegade after its reworks. 

As a rev main; I don't like how they handle my class. I personally wish they had of never touched it and just left it alone after HoT; No more E-specs or anything. At least then It'd be enjoyable to use its core and by proxy herald variant. Right now it just feels like a lackluster guardian with a smidgen of warrior and thief rolled in.

[Angesombre.4630]

It's not just a question of bringing him back, it's a question of equality too.

[BumboJumbo.1308]

Correct me if I'm wrong but ele attunement swapping, necro shroud, engi tool kits, etc. Change the weapon bar, hence the weapon swap sigils working on it.

Whereas rev legend swapping is changing the utility bar, which means that your weapon has not been swapped as opposed to the above mentioned "weapon swaps". 

For this reason I think it was a good bug fix. 

I don't understand why people are against this unless the bug fix made rev unplayable, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Alik.9651]

2 hours ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but ele attunement swapping, necro shroud, engi tool kits, etc. Change the weapon bar, hence the weapon swap sigils working on it.

Whereas rev legend swapping is changing the utility bar, which means that your weapon has not been swapped as opposed to the above mentioned "weapon swaps". 

For this reason I think it was a good bug fix. 

I don't understand why people are against this unless the bug fix made rev unplayable, but maybe I'm wrong.

 

becoz back to the day Rev first come out with NO weapon swaps (like ele, and eng)

so the dev make F1 count as weapon swap

and nowadays ppl arguing is Anet called this a "bug" which is NOT

it is the "setting" back to the first day.

if it is a "bug" (which is not) this changes should also apply to Necromancer, Druid, and Specter.

becoz their F1 (F5 for Druid) is changing their "Form"

changing skill 1~5 is the form changing result, just like changing skill 6-0 is the Rev's form (Legends) changing result.

[BumboJumbo.1308]

15 minutes ago, Alik.9651 said:

becoz back to the day Rev first come out with NO weapon swaps (like ele, and eng)

so the dev make F1 count as weapon swap

and nowadays ppl arguing is Anet called this a "bug" which is NOT

it is the "setting" back to the first day.

if it is a "bug" (which is not) this changes should also apply to Necromancer, Druid, and Specter.

becoz their F1 (F5 for Druid) is changing their "Form"

changing skill 1~5 is the form changing result, just like changing skill 6-0 is the Rev's form (Legends) changing result.

I'm not really following you're point about a lack of weapon swap of rev means that the legend swap should count as a weapon swap since rev already does have a weapon swap

 

I'm also not understanding how druid f5, necro, spectre, etc. Is anything like rev legend swapping.

Druid f5 changes you're current held weapon to the druid "weapon" healing abilities. Same goes for shroud on necro, as well as spectre.

Rev legend swapping on the other hand only changes the utility skills not the weapon skills, therefore it is nothing like druid f5, necro shroud, spectre, etc. And therefore it does not activate the weapon swap sigils.

[Howluffu.7259]

8 hours ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

I'm not really following you're point about a lack of weapon swap of rev means that the legend swap should count as a weapon swap since rev already does have a weapon swap

 

I'm also not understanding how druid f5, necro, spectre, etc. Is anything like rev legend swapping.

Druid f5 changes you're current held weapon to the druid "weapon" healing abilities. Same goes for shroud on necro, as well as spectre.

Rev legend swapping on the other hand only changes the utility skills not the weapon skills, therefore it is nothing like druid f5, necro shroud, spectre, etc. And therefore it does not activate the weapon swap sigils.

Simple: every other profession that has weapon swap by default has another way of proccing sigils apart from weapon swap when revs now only have one.

 

I get that they want to put the rule of "weapon sigils will ONLY proc if your skills also change" but that means rev get the short end of the stick because not only they don't get to choose freely their utility they now has less options than other class that can do both from weapon swap and from F skills and kits making them subpar to classes like necro, ranger, warrior, thief and guardian.

 

This rule just made the extremely limited class as rev even more limited. GG

Edited March 25, 2022 by Howluffu.7259

[BumboJumbo.1308]

3 hours ago, Howluffu.7259 said:

Simple: every other profession that has weapon swap by default has another way of proccing sigils apart from weapon swap when revs now only have one.

 

but that means rev get the short end of the stick because not only they don't get to choose freely their utility they now has less options than other class that can do both from weapon swap and from F skills and kits making them subpar to classes like necro, ranger, warrior, thief and guardian.

 

This rule just made the extremely limited class as rev even more limited. GG

Sorry I should have worded my first point better.

The other guy can't say that "rev had no weapon swap", then say, "so dev make F1 count as weapon swap".  Rev now does have a weapon swap. Now not a reason for legend swapping counting as a weapon swap. His point is now pointless.

You agree with me in your second paragraph when you say "I get that they want to put the rule of ""weapon sigils will ONLY proc if your skills also change"".

 

 

 

 

[Howluffu.7259]

49 minutes ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

Sorry I should have worded my first point better.

The other guy can't say that "rev had no weapon swap", then say, "so dev make F1 count as weapon swap".  Rev now does have a weapon swap. Now not a reason for legend swapping counting as a weapon swap. His point is now pointless.

You agree with me in your second paragraph when you say "I get that they want to put the rule of ""weapon sigils will ONLY proc if your skills also change"".

 

Apart from that part have you read the other words I put? It is extremely punishing and unfair to rip the already limited class of a QoL that other classes can have it proc from both weapon swap and another F abilities.

And BTW it is very different to aknowledge why they wanted to do that to sigil procs and agreeing with the decision. I am TOTALLY AGAINST what they made with the change to limit even more the poor class is rev and it should have been a nerf to the sigil of energy instead because it is pretty clear without words it was a nerf to rev only for that one with the interaction it has with the new awful Vindicator spec.

 

I would rather if they revert the change and instead nerf the sigil or overhaul the entire spec to one that doenst use their fricking dodge to attack or do anything other than evade attacks.

 

To sum up, I very disagree with you.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Howluffu.7259
Typo

[BumboJumbo.1308]

46 minutes ago, Howluffu.7259 said:

Apart from that part have you read the other words I put? It is extremely punishing and unfair to rip the already limited class of a QoL that other classes can have it proc from both weapon swap and another F abilities.

And BTW it is very different to aknowledge why they wanted to do that to sigil procs and agreeing with the decision. I am TOTALLY AGAINST what they made with the change to limit even more the poor class is rev and it should have been a nerf to the sigil of energy instead because it is pretty clear without words it was a nerf to rev only for that one with the interaction it has with the new awful Vindicator spec.

 

I would rather if they revert the change and instead nerf the sigil or overhaul the entire spec to one that doenst use their fricking dodge to attack or do anything other than evade attacks.

 

To sum up, I very disagree with you.

I understand that it sucks rev got a QoL interaction got taken away, but atleast you acknowledge "... that they want to put the rule of ""weapon sigils will ONLY proc if your skills also change"".

[Scoobaniec.9561]

8 minutes ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

I understand that it sucks rev got a QoL interaction got taken away, but atleast you acknowledge "... that they want to put the rule of ""weapon sigils will ONLY proc if your skills also change"".

Well rev skills do change. Ur point?

[BumboJumbo.1308]

2 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Well rev skills do change. Ur point?

Do you agree or disagree that legend swapping changes the weapon skills?

If agree that legend swapping changes weapon skills then Howluffu would disagree with you since you misinterpreted his quote. 

Though ambiguous, Howluffus quote, "weapon sigils will ONLY proc if your skills also change". Does come after, "I get that they want to put the rule of". Though not explicit it's an acknowledgement that Anet is making a rule where weapon swaps of any kind activates the weapon swap sigils. Not utility swapping like legend swapping.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I wonder exactly what is Anet is trying to accomplish with this nerf.  After playing with the buildcraft of the Vind more, I've come to the conclusion that Sigil of Energy is very mediocre.  It is half of a dodge every 9 seconds.  This isn't a massive DPS or survival increase.  At best, it alleviates some of the additional pressure that can be put on the Vind by letting them dodge early instead of delaying them right until Forerunner of Death's buff expires.  However, this tactic comes at the cost of Leviathan Strength and the Sigil of Impact, so at best it is an even trade of offensive power for defensive power.

What this faux bug-fix really "fixed" was convenience.  Vindicator can no longer conveniently camp one weapon while swapping legends, get the energy sigil proc, and still have an off-handed weapon to use as the situation needs.  Now, Vinds need to either run double greatsword, run sword + sword with no alternative weapons, or be forced to sit on Staff or Hammer if they need that energy sigil proc.  This makes the profession far worse when it comes to ease of use and versatility, but no worse for wear when it comes to peak PVE performance.  In this sense, Anet nerfed the Vindicator for everybody except for the most elite players.  

[Scoobaniec.9561]

15 hours ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

Do you agree or disagree that legend swapping changes the weapon skills?

If agree that legend swapping changes weapon skills then Howluffu would disagree with you since you misinterpreted his quote. 

Though ambiguous, Howluffus quote, "weapon sigils will ONLY proc if your skills also change". Does come after, "I get that they want to put the rule of". Though not explicit it's an acknowledgement that Anet is making a rule where weapon swaps of any kind activates the weapon swap sigils. Not utility swapping like legend swapping.

Waste of time but on weapon swap refers to the weapon swap mechanic itself not changing skills itself on the bar. Already explained it:

 

So even by Anet logic anything outside of weapon swap triggering sigils is a bug. The end

 

Rev "bug fix" needs to be reverted cause unlike other classes our weapons are specialized in roles instead of being flexible and most of the time u want to stay in them unless situation demands otherwise. 

[Alik.9651]

20 hours ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

Sorry I should have worded my first point better.

The other guy can't say that "rev had no weapon swap", then say, "so dev make F1 count as weapon swap".  Rev now does have a weapon swap. Now not a reason for legend swapping counting as a weapon swap. His point is now pointless.

You agree with me in your second paragraph when you say "I get that they want to put the rule of ""weapon sigils will ONLY proc if your skills also change"".

 

 

 

 

Oh well, that say, Necro Druid Specter Firebrand always have weapon swap, so why their F skill still count?

Edited March 26, 2022 by Alik.9651