"Fixed a bug that caused legend swapping to activate certain sigils that activate when swapping weapons."

[Angesombre.4630]

I'm reposting my post that I put elsewhere.

This has existed since the beginning on revenant, calling it a "bug" for the nerf under the guise of the vindicator release is just a joke. It completely nerfs his gameplay which is even more restricted. He can't choose his skills like all classes, he has an energy bar and CDs on skills. I think he was already pretty much stuck. This allowed to continue with a descending weapon to do support or dps without changing weapon knowing that sigils were based on the same CDs with the switch of legends. Especially for recall that is a function added by the developers. 

And I forgot a detail of great importance a good part of the runes that function with certain ability as the wells, cries ... are not at all impacted on the revenant because the name is different even if the use may resemble.
While the rune related to the revenant could be used on any class.

Yes, the ele and the engineer work differently because they don't have weapon switch in combat but it is not so different from the revenant on the point of view that the skills change. The ele has the different elements or conjured weapon and the engineer on the kits. Yes, again, they are not placed in the same place but the mechanics can be similar because there is some rigidity of the class.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[Fan Didly Tastic.7169]

7 hours ago, BumboJumbo.1308 said:

How was it not needed?

It says for the reasoning behind the nerf was that it was a bug.

 

This would be because if you look to the design notes of the Revenant, they explicitly stated it was a feature of the kit. While they are within their rights to patch it out, and for some that's reasoning enough for this to be ok. That since they can, that means any act is alright, despite the fact that we're paying customers who are entitled to give this very feedback. They instead either didn't do the due diligence to determine what they were "fixing" wasn't actually bug, or they simply thought that relabeling a huge nerf as a bug would be enough for this to go through unnoticed. Regardless of what they were trying to do, it's pretty disrespectful to your player base to just openly lie to them to avoid, unavoidable flack.

Just be honest with us, Anet. No one likes being lied to.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Fan Didly Tastic.7169
weird huge spacing

[BumboJumbo.1308]

 

1 hour ago, Fan Didly Tastic.7169 said:

This would be because if you look to the design notes of the Revenant, they explicitly stated it was a feature of the kit. While they are within their rights to patch it out, and for some that's reasoning enough for this to be ok. That since they can, that means any act is alright, despite the fact that we're paying customers who are entitled to give this very feedback. They instead either didn't do the due diligence to determine what they were "fixing" wasn't actually bug, or they simply thought that relabeling a huge nerf as a bug would be enough for this to go through unnoticed. Regardless of what they were trying to do, it's pretty disrespectful to your player base to just openly lie to them to avoid, unavoidable flack.

Just be honest with us, Anet. No one likes being lied to.

Understandable. Thank you for the explanation.

Though, for the part about anet lying: we can't know 100% if they are or not. It may very well be that the original developer/s that created revenant left the company. And now a new developer is making changes to a class like revenant  but maybe didn't get a note that legend swapping had an intentional interaction with weapon swap sigils.

Who knows?

[BALONEYPWNY.9258]

This "bug fix" essentially dumpstered the idea of Rev having specialized weapon sets.  Is there any reason to even run staff anymore?

It's been touched on earlier in this thread, but Rev was already a restrictive class.  Why exacerbate the problem?  It'd be nice to see some transparency here, rather than just calling it a bug fix.  We all know the interaction was intended.

 

[Deathblunt.9160]

I just made a set of cele gear for my rev and now that this "bug fix" came out I have to scrap him since the change killed rev for WvW. Now i have to be like everyone else and transfer the gear to my guardian. Thanks A net!

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Deathblunt.9160 said:

I just made a set of cele gear for my rev and now that this "bug fix" came out I have to scrap him since the change killed rev for WvW. Now i have to be like everyone else and transfer the gear to my guardian. Thanks A net!

That doesn't make sense. Rev effectiveness in WvW is WAY MORE than it's former agility to proc weapon sigil on legend swap every 10 seconds. 

Let's look at this another way ... if legend swapping procing weapon swap sigils was SUCH an integral part of Rev for WvW success to the point where removing it killed Rev in WvW ... then it was OP amd needed to get nerfed anyways. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[The Boz.2038]

TIL anything that makes something work is OP and needs nerfed.

 

[BALONEYPWNY.9258]

14 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Weird statement considering this change has ZERO impact on weapons. 

Being a 'restrictive' class isn't a reason to allow legend swaps to trigger weapons swap sigils. Obviously, whatever happened, the interaction is NOW no longer intended. 

For Rev, being able to activate sigils on legend swap *did* have an impact on weapons.  Actually, it had a *large* impact on Rev weapons and anyone who plays the class at a decent level knows that.

 

And obviously it's no longer intended.  Would have been nice to get a real reason instead of being lied to.

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, BALONEYPWNY.9258 said:

For Rev, being able to activate sigils on legend swap *did* have an impact on weapons.  Actually, it had a *large* impact on Rev weapons and anyone who plays the class at a decent level knows that.

Does it? I would LOVE to hear how removing weapon sigils procing on legend swaps impacts weapon choice and make people not have a reason to run staff like the poster was implying. Somehow using staff loses all it's appeal because of a change to a mechanic that doesn't affect how staff works ... but not any other weapon? Like, somehow the ONLY reason to use staff was related to the ability to proc weapon sigils on legend swapping? Why? Did other weapons NOT allow legend swapping to proc weapon sigils? I think they did ...

Yeah, SOMEONE needs to explain this whole "staff = trash if no weapon swap proc on legend swaps".

... or maybe we admit that people are just being sensational and reasons to use the Staff are still relevant and Revenant isn't 'killed' in WvW because of this change. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Bish.8627]

Not sure if anyone has noticed this yet, but sometimes when I switch legend and then weapon quickly, my energy sigil doesn't go off. Not sure how they wrote the nerf in, but maybe its what prevents weapon swap activating it?

Edited April 6, 2022 by Bish.8627

[Angesombre.4630]

Since the modification of this element the way to play the revenant has become even more rigid which opens up even less variety...

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,

Just a reminder to keep it civil and avoid attacking each other. I've removed quite a few posts.

Regards.

[xblankk.4207]

On 2/28/2022 at 12:18 PM, Flying.6509 said:

So swapping attunements on ele triggers swap sigils, swapping kits on engi triggers swap sigils, going in and out of shroud on necro triggers swap sigils, but swapping legends on rev DOES NOT trigger swap sigils and it is a BUG. What's the logic here? Just.. why? 😕

Just playing devil's advocate here...
Ele attunement swap - Weapon skills change
Engi Kit swap - Weapon skills change
Necro Shroud - Weapon skills change
Thief Specter - Weapon skills change

Rev Legend swap - No weapon skills change.

I get why this sucks for Revs, obviously. But I'm not really sure why people don't get the logic of this change.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

4 hours ago, xKole.9175 said:

Just playing devil's advocate here...
Ele attunement swap - Weapon skills change
Engi Kit swap - Weapon skills change
Necro Shroud - Weapon skills change
Thief Specter - Weapon skills change

Rev Legend swap - No weapon skills change.

I get why this sucks for Revs, obviously. But I'm not really sure why people don't get the logic of this change.

While the logic here is fine, people (including me) are mostly upset because:

1) It was intentional design by the designer of the Revenant back before HoT (links further up the thread for proof) and has been a staple of the class for over 6 years. 

2) Anet fixed it as a "bug" when it was never a bug, but intentional design.  This makes the change feel scummy and like they're trying to cover their kitten instead of just owning the change as being balance oriented (which is what the change actually was for)

Edited April 21, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[xblankk.4207]

17 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

While the logic here is fine, people (including me) are mostly upset because:

1) It was intentional design by the designer of the Revenant back before HoT (links further up the thread for proof) and has been a staple of the class for over 6 years. 

2) Anet fixed it as a "bug" when it was never a bug, but intentional design.  This makes the change feel scummy and like they're trying to cover their kitten instead of just owning the change as being balance oriented (which is what the change actually was for)

Yeah, I understand that is frustrating. At the end of the day, you guys are right, it was a nerf - whether or not Anet intended that to be the wording they used.

I would only argue that Anet calling it a bug makes them look worse (more incompetent) than just calling it a nerf. I think that was just a mistake, I don't think they consciously thought "we should lie about this to not look bad." Saying, "We left a bug standing for 7 years" sounds much worse than, "We think this feature is overperforming."

 

All I'm trying to say is that while I understand the frustration, the logic behind this change does make sense and that I don't think Anet tried to pull a fast one on anyone, they just made a mistake. 

Edited April 21, 2022 by xKole.9175

[Angesombre.4630]

Since I do not even want to play revenant, because I played it with the sigil of purification, but in the end it is the that one sees that the purge is limited without that obliged to take the stick to have a minimum of it without taking the dwarf. And the skills are expensive in energy. When we see the ease of the necro has its purge of alterations or transform them frankly.

Otherwise should be revised all the skills of the revenant because with the nerves brought without solution has quoted. 

It looks more like Anet is playing with a roulette wheel to see what he can nerf.

The gameplay is rigid without it because we don't choose our skills it's a legend that we take or it brings a loss of dps.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Angesombre.4630

[Thornwolf.9721]

15 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

Since I do not even want to play revenant, because I played it with the sigil of purification, but in the end it is the that one sees that the purge is limited without that obliged to take the stick to have a minimum of it without taking the dwarf. And the skills are expensive in energy. When we see the ease of the necro has its purge of alterations or transform them frankly.

Otherwise should be revised all the skills of the revenant because with the nerves brought without solution has quoted. 

It looks more like Anet is playing with a roulette wheel to see what he can nerf.

The gameplay is rigid without it because we don't choose our skills it's a legend that we take or it brings a loss of dps.

At this point my rev, my main is the last thing I'll play. I've been dancing between classes because I miss how Rev felt and now the gameplay feels terrible after all these changes; At this point it just feels like a slower warrior and a less loved guardian. The class honestly just shouldn't exist.

[Howluffu.7259]

Can wait Anet to "fix the bug" of this class existing.

[xblankk.4207]

On 4/21/2022 at 8:43 AM, xKole.9175 said:

Just playing devil's advocate here...
Ele attunement swap - Weapon skills change
Engi Kit swap - Weapon skills change
Necro Shroud - Weapon skills change
Thief Specter - Weapon skills change

Rev Legend swap - No weapon skills change.

I get why this sucks for Revs, obviously. But I'm not really sure why people don't get the logic of this change.

Nvm, the fact that people are confused by the train of thought above and understand the following train of thought below explains everything lol.
 

19 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

Since I do not even want to play revenant, because I played it with the sigil of purification, but in the end it is the that one sees that the purge is limited without that obliged to take the stick to have a minimum of it without taking the dwarf. And the skills are expensive in energy. When we see the ease of the necro has its purge of alterations or transform them frankly.

Otherwise should be revised all the skills of the revenant because with the nerves brought without solution has quoted. 

It looks more like Anet is playing with a roulette wheel to see what he can nerf.

The gameplay is rigid without it because we don't choose our skills it's a legend that we take or it brings a loss of dps.

 

[Thornwolf.9721]

On 4/22/2022 at 1:33 PM, xKole.9175 said:

Nvm, the fact that people are confused by the train of thought above and understand the following train of thought below explains everything lol.
 

 

It's not that we don't it's honestly that most of us don't care. It was a core feature; Not a bug. It was part of rev's design and rather than refining the paramaters or just making it only effect some sigils they removed it outright; Just like empty vessel. They treat this class as if "Oh it has something good thats not renegade? Well lets just get rid of that." They keep doing it and we keep pushing back~

The fact is whatever way you slice it you DO have to pay to play rev even at a core level, it is locked behind the expansions and thus is an expansion class and one of the selling points of upgrading to the expansion of your choosing (All of them depending on what version you get). I've been playing the class since it came out and right now it's at it's absolute weakest and probably the sorriest state it has ever been in. (I don't count renegade for obvious reasons) 

What next? Are they going to remove legend swap next? Would that be acceptable for them to do? How about increasing cooldowns and energy AGAIN or going through and nerfing our sustain and damage AGAIN. It literally feels like the class should just be called renegade; Because the only thing surviving most of these changes unscathed would be that spec which begs the question of if that is the intention. 

Note I'm talking indivudalistically, The class falls behind when stacked against the rest of the cast. Even renegade is only wanted for very specific reasons which would be the buff of assassins presence, kalla's fervor and of course the spirits/alac. It has NOTHING to do with its damage; It has everything to do with its utility. Which as a spec it's the only one with any real utility worth talking about. 

(Im getting back to the topic, bare with me.)

So by removing weapon sigils proccing on legend swap, you nerfed everything but ren. Because most renegade players from what I've seen, been told and witnessed do not swap weapons. They legit just camp shortbow; Because shortbow is honestly one of our best weapons. The auto's with impossible odds hit hard, the skills are solid and can do good damage and if you're running power or condi it's still usable and a good weapon choice. Compare that to Sword/Sword or mace/axe (Speaking about in competitive where this change matters) Our weapons are kind of.... eh?  We don't get to customize our builds, we don't get much variation in our traits because a good majority are kind of trash. The sigils gave us a form of customization as our gear and what we chose to put in it (Runes and sigils) are what made us have some further build craft. I know they made the change 100% for vindicator, which is honestly hot garbage.. which in the end means we got nothing for loosing something. There was no compensation or return in what they decided to pull from us. All it is now is a stripped mechanic that an out-of-touch and impossibly lost developer decided was not meant for a class they don't understand. Which is why I wish Roy was here.

Edited April 23, 2022 by Thornwolf.9721
was typing too fast, will edit as I notice issues with the post. My bad.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

With new light on the balance

Bovan — 12/02/2021
Renegade is one of the biggest outliers I would bring forth. Their personal DPS without help seems to be in the right ballpark, but when you add in the extra damage that allies gain through Assassin's Presence, and the higher personal DPS they gain from sharing Razorclaw's Rage they definitely contribute more than 40k DPS. Even without Assassin's Presence in mind.
ANet_Solar — 12/02/2021
The condi ren problem is really with weapon swap sigils, I think
Those need to not trigger on legend swap, but I haven't gotten a good look into it to see if that's feasable
Bovan — 12/02/2021
I'll add onto that that I find things that you need to share with allies very difficult to deal with. Ashes from Firebrand, bleeding stacks from Razorclaw's Rage and Thief Venoms always are a nightmare to work with. 
ANet_Solar — 12/02/2021
I consider those part of the personal DPS target in a group
Angeels — 12/02/2021
this would be a really bad change for pvp/wvw
ANet_Solar — 12/02/2021
You can swap weapons in pvp/wvw, yes?
Angeels — 12/02/2021
well with how rev weapons are designed
you need that swap on legend swap
Bovan — 12/02/2021
That makes sense, but I always felt because they relied on outside sources that you have no control over they maybe are fine being a little bit higher compared to something like Sharpening Stones from a Ranger. If you buff allies who die, hit the wrong target, or not consume the stacks you end up losing out.
Angeels — 12/02/2021
since rev weapons are focused on one facet
ie offence, defence, etc.
if a player has to swap to staff for their energy sigil proc
then they lose all their damage
and no other class has that issue
Xyonon — 12/02/2021
what?
ANet_Solar — 12/02/2021
Yeah, that's just untrue.
Xyonon — 12/02/2021
every other class just has to weapon swap 😄
Angeels — 12/02/2021
read what I said again
in the context of pvp
sword sword = zero defensive value which means that dodges are important
staff = high defensive value
currently you can swap legend and get your energy/cleansing/whatever sigil 
Xyonon — 12/02/2021
but that's just luxury, something other classes don't have
ANet_Solar — 12/02/2021
I'm really struggling to see how that's unique to Revenant.
Guardian just as much as for-purpose weapons. Staff is healing, hammer is CC, shield is defense, etc.

Professions with no in combat weapon swap do have other ways to activate it (attunement swap, etc.)
It's a problem that Rev is double dipping there.
It's just a longtime bug. I can see your argument 'we're used to it and have learned gameplay that depends on it', and while I acknowledge that's true, I think change can be fun, and new things will emerge that work- and if they don't, we can do PvP tuning to make sure there's builds that work.
Bovan — 12/02/2021
Initially I was going to say that I didn't like the idea of not triggering on swap sigils on Legends anymore. But thinking about it, I don't really have a good argument for keeping it around.
Angeels — 12/02/2021
I mean you can disagree but you'll have every top rev player turning around saying the exact same thing being pissed off with a change that honestly is thoroughly pointless
Kenzo — 12/02/2021
Imo they would be pissed for the wrong reason then tho
ANet_Solar — 12/02/2021
Well, if they're 'top players', I'm sure they'll adapt.
Of course, I don't even know that I 'can' make it not trigger on legend swap, heh
Bovan — 12/02/2021
While we are on a similar topic, are there any plans to look into on-heal traits and triggers for Mechanist who use Med Kit?
At the moment their toolbelt skill counts as their heal skill, but that is replaced with the golem's F1.
ANet_Solar — 12/02/2021
But my past digging into the condi ren outlier problem ended with not wanting to overly hurt shortbow only no swap builds more, because that's the more accessible route into an already hard to play spec (as you have to constantly swap legend), and so I want to find a spot to tone them down that won't further hurt the more accessible build.

[Angesombre.4630]

I'm just making a sign on this topic so that it doesn't fall into oblivion

[Angesombre.4630]

I had not seen the last post, but it seems that the person of Anet followed well the conversation because it is not a bug it was built like that at the very beginning of the revenant, it has the cost of energy on the skills 6 has 0 (I take them by default) and on the weapons, it also has a CD on the 2, a change of legend of 9s and weapons of 9s, but especially it does not choose these skills it chooses a legend therefore if skills are not good in it to use one one must take the complete pack anyway.

This change happened at the same time as the release of the vindicator, this change was wanted and in no way comes out of a bug but a basic design knowing that some other class also have access to it, and they also have a weapon change.

If not, there are some runes that can't be completely useful for the revenant, for example the one that would use screams, wells or cantrip because it only has skills with legendary in it, so it has nothing in common in this field with the others.

He doesn't have a lot of purging skills unlike some other classes, necro, guard, engineer....

I'll take back a post:
https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/108543-fixed-a-bug-that-caused-legend-swapping-to-activate-certain-sigils-that-activate-when-swapping-weapons/?do=findComment&comment=1584357
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Lets-Chat-Revenant-Masters-of-the-Mist/page/2#post4807746
https://forum-fr.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Weapon-Swap-Sigils/page/1#post5305274

[Polar.8634]

Also did not see piece of chat above. Omg, dev really does not have clue how no manage rev. 

On 6/25/2022 at 2:46 PM, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

if a player has to swap to staff for their energy sigil proc then they lose all their damage and no other class has that issue

This is truth, it was said to dev before change and they still did it .what is fun, condi rene is still fine. But the rest builds got gutted .

[Angesombre.4630]

I would like to know where this discussion comes from, and we can see that Anet does not understand why it was done, that it is not a bug, and that other classes or specialization can do it.

If I want to be silly, some classes use it and yet do not change their weapon with the associated key.