Vindicators CC

[SWLDguitar.5746]

18 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You're responses in this thread are of the strangest sort. Staff, Axe, Hammer ... ALL have CC and along with the CC skill in alliance ... ALL available to Vindicator without a compromise to using Vindicator toolset. Your claims that you 'lose' the two most powerful power skills in Revenant ... what ARE you even talking about? Are you aware there is a weapon swap right?

If people are just going to make pump DPS builds for OW PVE and declare Vindicator is missing things because they have massive gaps in their toolset ... they simply don't know what they are doing (or can't read tooltips apparently)

here is a fun fact: Anet already added CC to the Alliance Skill ... don't think we are going to get more. 

 

To your point, staff has the best breakbar ability in the game and pairs extremely well with Alliance Stance.

[Zaret.1450]

59 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You're responses in this thread are of the strangest sort. Staff, Axe, Hammer ... ALL have CC and along with the CC skill in alliance ... ALL available to Vindicator without a compromise to using Vindicator toolset. Your claims that you 'lose' the two most powerful power skills in Revenant ... what ARE you even talking about? Are you aware there is a weapon swap right?

If people are just going to make pump DPS builds for OW PVE and declare Vindicator is missing things because they have massive gaps in their toolset ... they simply don't know what they are doing (or can't read tooltips apparently)

here is a fun fact: Anet already added CC to the Alliance Skill ... don't think we are going to get more. 

 

ok so hammer, no dps out od wvw and pvp

axe, a lost in dmg, you can say whatever you want, you still loose dmg

staff, emmm does it even have dmg? yeah if you go healer it is usefull and makes sense, in a dps build? a hidrance at most

dont tell me to read tooltips when a lot of people in snow crows are saying the same thing, what is snow crows? maybe the meta pve engame guide? it is bwcause of people like you that we allwais end up with stupid things that work awfull.

rev already has a condi elite on renegade, herald is basicaly a pvp or wvw exclusive elite because on pve it is worth nothing compared to other suports dps healers or even remegade itself, hibrid builds, again renwgade wins.

is it realy that strange that i want to play the new elite spec and want it to be good? because sry but you go to raid with a staff hammer vindi and see what happens, or to fractals, or anywere that is not open worls.

if i have to use sword axe staff tell me where the dmg is, or gs staff or any combo that isnt gs sw/sw, just give gs one cc, make one of archemorus skills create a combo field and the elite has everything it needs.

at this rate you wil only see renegades or shiro/jalis vindicators at most, thanks man you helped revenants become a great class again. now go to shiverpeaks and claim raids are too dificult and elitist as allwais.

[Zaret.1450]

51 minutes ago, SWLDguitar.5746 said:

To your point, staff has the best breakbar ability in the game and pairs extremely well with Alliance Stance.

except it has no dmg so it is just the same old, i use staff only for cc and for loosing dmg, or in healer builds if vindi ever gets to be a main healer. staff is good in its job, it just has a different job than what a dps wants, it is not that difficult to understand really

[Obtena.7952]

17 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

ok so hammer, no dps out od wvw and pvp

axe, a lost in dmg, you can say whatever you want, you still loose dmg

staff, emmm does it even have dmg? yeah if you go healer it is usefull and makes sense, in a dps build? a hidrance at most

 

Good thing there is something called a weapon swap then ... 

Again, if you are just going to take a DPS pump build into OW PVE, you lack the tools that will help you succeed. Learn to make a build appropriate for the content and use the toolset. Revenant and even Vindicator are CERTAINLY not deficient in CC abilities. You thinking here is absurd. Even if you don't want CC through your weapons ... they are in legend skills, LOTS of them. Seems to me ... you lack the ability to make good builds.

In fact, it's EXCEPTIONAL to make a build that doesn't have CC ... but here you are, complaining it doesn't have it. Honestly, this is just a L2P issue. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[SWLDguitar.5746]

19 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

except it has no dmg so it is just the same old, i use staff only for cc and for loosing dmg, or in healer builds if vindi ever gets to be a main healer. staff is good in its job, it just has a different job than what a dps wants, it is not that difficult to understand really

You're not wrong.  A Staff does do less damage than a greatsword.

But you can spam Nomad's Advance still.  Which you're doing with a Greatsword in Alliance anyways....

 

If you didn't know, Nomad's Advance is your bread and butter until around 4,000 power.  I'm at work and can't tell you the exact number.  But from memory, Dodge, Elite Spear, GS2, GS5 and Nomad's Advance are your rotation (Scavenger's Burst when 2+ enemies). 

Point is, you don't miss a lot being in Staff and in Alliance Stance because you can almost always press Nomad's Advance and it's your 3rd hardest hitting ability on a 3sec CD.

[Zaret.1450]

21 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Good thing there is something called a weapon swap then ... 

Again, if you are just going to take a DPS pump build into OW PVE, you lack the tools that will help you succeed. Learn to make a build appropriate for the content and use the toolset. Revenant and even Vindicator are CERTAINLY not deficient in CC abilities. You thinking here is absurd. Even if you don't want CC through your weapons ... they are in legend skills, LOTS of them. Seems to me ... you lack the ability to make good builds.

In fact, it's EXCEPTIONAL to make a build that doesn't have CC ... but here you are, complaining it doesn't have it. Honestly, this is just a L2P issue. 

agsin with open world, that thing isnt relevant in the least, you dont need a build to kill tequatl but you need a good build to kill raid bosses or fractals, and on those encounters you lack cc, are you gonna use jade winds and then what? autoattack like an idiot for half an hour ?  come on youlll be able to tell be about build making when you get out of world bosses kid

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, zaswer.5246 said:

agsin with open world, that thing isnt relevant in the least

Well, that's a pretty arrogant POV. It is relevant, just not to you. It's the topic of this thread if you didn't notice. Complain about Vindicator not having raid builds when we already have some of the most desirable and effective builds for raiding is LOLtastic. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[SWLDguitar.5746]

42 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

agsin with open world, that thing isnt relevant in the least, you dont need a build to kill tequatl but you need a good build to kill raid bosses or fractals, and on those encounters you lack cc, are you gonna use jade winds and then what? autoattack like an idiot for half an hour ?  come on youlll be able to tell be about build making when you get out of world bosses kid

If you're a hardcore raider you're probably going to stick with Rene, there's no upcoming changes to Vindi to make Rene worse than Vindi (or herald).

If you're hardcore you know why you'll stay Rene.  Really shouldn't upset you in the least.  You don't need 3 elite specs to raid.

[Hallow.7368]

15 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

also id like to be able to use 2 weapons as power revenent for once, camping swords and then staff for cc feels awfull, like why do i keep playing rev when the new willbender is shiro vindicator but much better? isnt that wrong?

You mean the spec that those mains also complain about? Almost like it's not a new concept that people just complain to complain. GS 3rd auto applies chilled which does defiance bar damage btw. GS/staff will be good if you're tired of sword/sword and GS and sword/axe is also a thing. You can also run jalis because forced engagement does a lot of break bar damage. Your statement is basically "I want to run this build but it's not fair that 2 strong damage weapons has the downside of low cc! :(" The only way they can fix this is by making GS overloaded which is probably not on the table. You have to make a good build from what you have not make a build that's not good from your own design then ask for anet to fix it.

[Aeolus.3615]

7 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

You mean the spec that those mains also complain about? Almost like it's not a new concept that people just complain to complain. GS 3rd auto applies chilled which does defiance bar damage btw. GS/staff will be good if you're tired of sword/sword and GS and sword/axe is also a thing. You can also run jalis because forced engagement does a lot of break bar damage. Your statement is basically "I want to run this build but it's not fair that 2 strong damage weapons has the downside of low cc! :(" The only way they can fix this is by making GS overloaded which is probably not on the table. You have to make a good build from what you have not make a build that's not good from your own design then ask for anet to fix it.

^Bender it is a diferent story, a big problem for the current balance due the old powercreep  gimmick gameplay gw2 was doing in the past, and how some classes were designed, bender m8 be the easiest of the classes to kill  even some core builds wreck it.

About Vindi... Anet better fix this  class, i sugest just to boost auto atack its weak, doesn't CC, doesnt do best damage in game and doesnt give sustain, maybe with  this players will find it balanced.  :P

Players, usually if isn't broken isn't  balanced, that has been the issue in gw2 class design and metas, now that anet is trying to put  classes more streamlined with each other players will have dificulties.

Also when classes have some options but players start saying class cant do them cause they are not selecting those options... its just... idk.. carry expect much?

Edited March 2, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[Rym.1469]

On 3/1/2022 at 12:25 AM, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

lol when at the beginning story quest, one of the masters asks you to use 3 combo field actions, yet Vindicator has access to none.

 

Peak development design.

 

This expansion is the Shadowlands of GW2.

GW2 forums in a nutshell omegalul

[Zaret.1450]

19 hours ago, SWLDguitar.5746 said:

If you're a hardcore raider you're probably going to stick with Rene, there's no upcoming changes to Vindi to make Rene worse than Vindi (or herald).

If you're hardcore you know why you'll stay Rene.  Really shouldn't upset you in the least.  You don't need 3 elite specs to raid.

but i migjt want to use more than one elite the entire time right? the point is why cant you give gs a bit of cc so it is more viable in raid, like, its not hurting anyone, wven those in PvP and wvw could use a pull in gs3 or a knockback on spear, is it realy that strange that i want to use something new?

also sry for open world people but really, open world, out of eod because i havent fone all, doesnt need a specific build nor great mechanics nor something like that, you can go however you want and do the content.

really is it that wrong to try and make a new speck that lacks things itself more complete?

[Hallow.7368]

2 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

but i migjt want to use more than one elite the entire time right? the point is why cant you give gs a bit of cc so it is more viable in raid, like, its not hurting anyone, wven those in PvP and wvw could use a pull in gs3 or a knockback on spear, is it realy that strange that i want to use something new?

also sry for open world people but really, open world, out of eod because i havent fone all, doesnt need a specific build nor great mechanics nor something like that, you can go however you want and do the content.

really is it that wrong to try and make a new speck that lacks things itself more complete?

..Because it should lack things? Why should everything be able to do anything all the time with no consequence? You have been spoiled by rene being a busted all in one spec. Their goal with the new EOD specs is to revert power creep and to nerf the other EOD specs and acclimate them to the power level they want the game to be balanced around. And EVEN then it's not like you're playing with no options you just choose to not take them because you want to play one specific build with 2 high damage weapons equiped. And EVEN then you are choosing not to take jalis.

 

You have staff, you have chill on your auto chain on GS, you have axe and you have jalis or even shiro elite. Vindicator does not need more cc simply because you are consciously deciding to forgo the plenty of options that you have. 

[SWLDguitar.5746]

2 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

but i migjt want to use more than one elite the entire time right? the point is why cant you give gs a bit of cc so it is more viable in raid, like, its not hurting anyone, wven those in PvP and wvw could use a pull in gs3 or a knockback on spear, is it realy that strange that i want to use something new?

also sry for open world people but really, open world, out of eod because i havent fone all, doesnt need a specific build nor great mechanics nor something like that, you can go however you want and do the content.

really is it that wrong to try and make a new speck that lacks things itself more complete?

To make Vindi "optimal(viable)" you would need to provide something (alac, quickness, perma might, etc).  Vindi is selfish (one of the abilities even uses this word) doesn't do any of that.  It provides only for itself.  

Rene provides a long duration Alac, it's the raid spec.  You don't need all 3 elite specs for raiding.  If you're serious about raiding you're going to play the spec best for raiding.  If tomorrow CORE was the spec to be, that's what you'd play and if you don't want to play it then enjoy the bench or pugging it.  I honestly have and always will like Herald far more than Rene, but i suck it up and play Rene because that's what GROUP content needs - to play for the GROUP.

As a pure DPS Vindi doesn't do enough to justify playing it over something else.  As a pure support Vindi doesn't do much other than heal battery and GREAT condi cleanse.  Again, it's not a raid spec.  It's a hybrid, meant for when variables are in constant change (see WvW, Open World, sPvP).  That doesn't mean you can't do raids as Vindi, just will never be as good or desirable (without change) as rene.

[Zaret.1450]

1 hour ago, SWLDguitar.5746 said:

To make Vindi "optimal(viable)" you would need to provide something (alac, quickness, perma might, etc).  Vindi is selfish (one of the abilities even uses this word) doesn't do any of that.  It provides only for itself.  

Rene provides a long duration Alac, it's the raid spec.  You don't need all 3 elite specs for raiding.  If you're serious about raiding you're going to play the spec best for raiding.  If tomorrow CORE was the spec to be, that's what you'd play and if you don't want to play it then enjoy the bench or pugging it.  I honestly have and always will like Herald far more than Rene, but i suck it up and play Rene because that's what GROUP content needs - to play for the GROUP.

As a pure DPS Vindi doesn't do enough to justify playing it over something else.  As a pure support Vindi doesn't do much other than heal battery and GREAT condi cleanse.  Again, it's not a raid spec.  It's a hybrid, meant for when variables are in constant change (see WvW, Open World, sPvP).  That doesn't mean you can't do raids as Vindi, just will never be as good or desirable (without change) as rene.

thats the thing pure power vindi doesnt have enought dmg nor cc to compete over dh or other power dps builds, saying alacrene is a raid build and that only that is fine is stupid man, guardian has power dps condi dps, quickness and healer, it is only fair that revenant can go power too and do the job, maybe not be the best but at least good enought so you can go perfectly fine.

 

[Aeolus.3615]

5 hours ago, Rym.1469 said:

GW2 forums in a nutshell omegalul

The combo field d was done very fast and easily, i just swapped legends, that's what it took to do that within a few skills and blast spams that the class also has with some swaping... but i guess that is only for some players...

Edited March 2, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[SWLDguitar.5746]

3 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

thats the thing pure power vindi doesnt have enought dmg nor cc to compete over dh or other power dps builds, saying alacrene is a raid build and that only that is fine is stupid man, guardian has power dps condi dps, quickness and healer, it is only fair that revenant can go power too and do the job, maybe not be the best but at least good enought so you can go perfectly fine.

 

So play guardian?

Sorry but not everything needs to fit that mold.  

 

It's been 3 days, relax and try to enjoy it. 

Have you SEEN this game?  Do you know how much development goes into something like this?  Believe me, more people would be upset if the game looked horrible and there was server instability, invisible walls, ducking, missing models, falling through terrain, bugged events, missing audio, camera clipping, etc over doing less dps than META specs .  ::RELAX:: and enjoy the hard work of the team, the game is so much more than specs.  In fact the specs were likely the easiest part of development.

Take a piece of paper and develop a 3D jumping puzzle on it.   Take that same piece of paper, flip it over and then draw the massive city of New Kaineng.  Imagine the complexity of those 2 SMALL parts of the game and converting them to 3D from a 2D concept.  Imagine how much work goes into that and the backlash if something's wrong.  I mean, the Kirin Hero point proves my point....

Complain about balance after the balance patch.  Balance is the least of their worries at the moment, they are putting out fires to the core of the game they developed, they likely aren't even reading anything regarding professions because they know it's just people complaining in the honeymoon phase.

[Obtena.7952]

38 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

thats the thing pure power vindi doesnt have enought dmg nor cc to compete over dh or other power dps builds, saying alacrene is a raid build and that only that is fine is stupid man, guardian has power dps condi dps, quickness and healer, it is only fair that revenant can go power too and do the job, maybe not be the best but at least good enought so you can go perfectly fine.

 

That's not a problem. If your view is that builds you play have to "compete", then play the builds that do that. The fact is that Anet can't and aren't making every build compete with every other build and have never tried to do it in the whole history of the game. Your expectations are unreasonable. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

7 hours ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Also when classes have some options but players start saying class cant do them cause they are not selecting those options... its just... idk.. carry expect much?

When that happens, I smile, because it really shows the illogical and irrational thinking that people have to justify their ideas. 

"Revenant doesn't have CC because I CHOOSE to not use my CC options" ... it's comical at this point. 

[Mogway.1825]

19 minutes ago, SWLDguitar.5746 said:

So play guardian?

Sorry but not everything needs to fit that mold.  

 

It's been 3 days, relax and try to enjoy it. 

Have you SEEN this game?  Do you know how much development goes into something like this?  Believe me, more people would be upset if the game looked horrible and there was server instability, invisible walls, ducking, missing models, falling through terrain, bugged events, missing audio, camera clipping, etc over doing less dps than META specs .  ::RELAX:: and enjoy the hard work of the team, the game is so much more than specs.  In fact the specs were likely the easiest part of development.

Take a piece of paper and develop a 3D jumping puzzle on it.   Take that same piece of paper, flip it over and then draw the massive city of New Kaineng.  Imagine the complexity of those 2 SMALL parts of the game and converting them to 3D from a 2D concept.  Imagine how much work goes into that and the backlash if something's wrong.  I mean, the Kirin Hero point proves my point....

Complain about balance after the balance patch.  Balance is the least of their worries at the moment, they are putting out fires to the core of the game they developed, they likely aren't even reading anything regarding professions because they know it's just people complaining in the honeymoon phase.

Then what's the point of even having a discussion about the specs? Why even have forums allocated to it? If you're just going to minimize people's gripes with the game, I can't imagine why you'd even want to be in this part of the forums. Like it or not, the specs were the most anticipated part of the expansion. It allows you to experience new and old content in a completely different way so when the designs of the specs are lackluster, it's a pretty significant problem that's felt throughout the whole game. 

 

22 minutes ago, SWLDguitar.5746 said:

In fact the specs were likely the easiest part of development.

 

So which is it, dude. Were they likely or is it by fact? The internal functions of Anet are separated. You have different teams working on different things; some are working on spec design, some are working on strikes, etc. What a weird thing to say. 

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's not a problem. If your view is that builds you play have to "compete", then play the builds that do that. The fact is that Anet can't and aren't making every build compete with every other build and have never tried to do it in the whole history of the game. Your expectations are unreasonable. 

And ofcourse, they have. That's what balance is and what balance patches are for. Unfortunately, Anet has historically been very slow with balance patches. Also, it's not necessarily a competitive aspect but each build and/or spec should have a clearly defined purpose. Yes, you're going to have situations where, for example, some power dps classes greatly outperform their competition (like pve Power DH vs. Power Reaper) or where dps classes have fallen out of the meta since nerfing because they were too powerful (PvE Power Staff Weaver). In any case, I can't imagine why you think that Anet hasn't balanced the game in its entirety through the "whole history of the game". What an irrational way to justify your points. 

 

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your points (both of you) or anything but they way you disregard and minimize people's problems and issues with the spec and the game is pretty uncompassionate, let alone disingenuous. 

[Obtena.7952]

17 minutes ago, Mogway.1825 said:

 

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your points (both of you) or anything but they way you disregard and minimize people's problems and issues with the spec and the game is pretty uncompassionate, let alone disingenuous. 

Except the issue doesn't exist. People choosing to not take options available them, then those people turn around and complain they don't have something ... THAT'S the disingenuous part of what's happening here. Vindicator is FAR from deficient in any of the tools people need to play, so the complaint is actually completely invalid. 

If there is an issue, it's simply that people don't want to have to make a choice and deal with the consequences of the choices available to them. Anet can't fix 'unreasonable players'. 

And you care argue Anet is balancing so things "compete" according to player standards ... game history says otherwise.  As long as we don't have that, they aren't doing it. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[SWLDguitar.5746]

13 minutes ago, Mogway.1825 said:

Then what's the point of even having a discussion about the specs? Why even have forums allocated to it? If you're just going to minimize people's gripes with the game, I can't imagine why you'd even want to be in this part of the forums. Like it or not, the specs were the most anticipated part of the expansion. It allows you to experience new and old content in a completely different way so when the designs of the specs are lackluster, it's a pretty significant problem that's felt throughout the whole game. 

 

So which is it, dude. Were they likely or is it by fact? The internal functions of Anet are separated. You have different teams working on different things; some are working on spec design, some are working on strikes, etc. What a weird thing to say. 

And ofcourse, they have. That's what balance is and what balance patches are for. Unfortunately, Anet has historically been very slow with balance patches. Also, it's not necessarily a competitive aspect but each build and/or spec should have a clearly defined purpose. Yes, you're going to have situations where, for example, some power dps classes greatly outperform their competition (like pve Power DH vs. Power Reaper) or where dps classes have fallen out of the meta since nerfing because they were too powerful (PvE Power Staff Weaver). In any case, I can't imagine why you think that Anet hasn't balanced the game in its entirety through the "whole history of the game". What an irrational way to justify your points. 

 

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your points (both of you) or anything but they way you disregard and minimize people's problems and issues with the spec and the game is pretty uncompassionate, let alone disingenuous. 

You can talk about it. We are talking about it.  Complaining on day 3 that specs aren't meta isn't a discussion or even on their radar.   When the product launches a lot of levers are pulled at once and it's a scramble.  From complaints to praise, returns to bulk buying, Karens to Chads.  Sudden spike in customer service demand.  I can say this as professionally I am a product team coordinator.  I literally do the job of coordinating the launch of new products for my company into the marketplace, not videogames, but it's all the same at the end of the day.  I know exactly the conversations they are having, because i have these meetings/conversations everyday. 

The game needs to function as intended first.  The game needs to function without new specs.  They said summer is when they are going to do their pass they aren't coming through this week because your Vindi is not better than Rene in raids or guardian can do everything but what i play can't.

How big do you KNOW the "spec team" to be?  They likely are more than just "spec" developers.  I can point at one of my engineers on my team who is working on some electrical harness and tell them they are now on a project for an air tank (completely different realms of engineering) on a completely different team.  They would function seamlessly.  To say a developer is pigeon-held to specs because they have a "skill-set" to only work on specs and they don't leave that role is a weird thing to say... waste of money imo.

Besides, i'm pretty sure, most of them took off work to play the game they worked on.  That's what i'd be doing! 😀

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

3 hours ago, SWLDguitar.5746 said:

Rene provides a long duration Alac, it's the raid spec.  You don't need all 3 elite specs for raiding.  If you're serious about raiding you're going to play the spec best for raiding.

 

I get your argument here, but you don't even need to make this argument in the first place anymore after the Renegade nerfs.  Vindicator is a fine power dps option and outdps's Renegade on fights that favor power, so for Raiding as a Power DPS, Vindicator is THE superior spec for Revenant.  Complaints about it being worse than Ren in this regard are unfounded and born of pure speculation and misinformation.  After the nerfs, Invocation Ren is the better spec for condi which has a long ramp up time compared to its Devastation counterpart, so Ren will, even more-so than before, require longer fights to get top damage and be successful.   

And yes, Ren does provide alacrity as well so it'll do great in that role as either hybrid or full support.  Vindicator also has a viable Alacrity/25might/Protection/Stability/Regen/Vigor/Healing/BoonExtension support build that people are sleeping on though now as well.  With everything (for the most part) being 5man now, Support Vindicator becomes viable as well alongside Support Ren. 

My point is you don't even need to say "Ren is the raiding spec" when in reality Vindicator already offers unique and interesting things for the class, but people are sleeping on what Vindicator can actually do and would rather just be upset it's not "45k omegalul dps" with "150,000 CC!" at the same time.   

[SWLDguitar.5746]

6 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Vindicator also has a viable Alacrity/25might/Protection/Stability/Regen/Vigor/Healing/BoonExtension support build that people are sleeping on though now as well.  With everything (for the most part) being 5man now, Support Vindicator becomes viable as well alongside Support Ren. 
 

Care to share?

Not sure how Vindicator is getting alacrity.

Edit: Camping Ventari and Vassels of the Empire?

Edited March 2, 2022 by SWLDguitar.5746

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

14 minutes ago, SWLDguitar.5746 said:

Care to share?

Not sure how Vindicator is getting alacrity.

Edit: Camping Ventari and Vassels of the Empire?

Yes, Ventari + Vassals is enough!  You don't even have to camp Ventari either; with 100% boon duration + the boon extension you have perma alac fairly easily + all the other boons I listed.  Stab from Jalis or extra heals + group breakstun from Alliance stance