Why the dragon's end meta is horrible (and you probably know it)

[Imba.9451]

On 3/3/2022 at 2:53 AM, Notaheal.9841 said:

The Dragon's end meta event is truly one of the most unpleasant gaming experiences I've ever had in my life, and I have finished ninja gaiden, got halfway through ghosts 'n goblins and have had the misfortune of being spammed by barbarians in civ 6. In short I've put up with a lot of painful gaming quirk but this one really takes the cake.

 

First off let me disclose this before all you capital G Gamers try and bring it up in the comments: I do not have a problem with difficult games. I finished Ninja Gaiden and got halfway through ghosts and goblins. I',m an S-Tier medic main, finished doom 2016 on ultra nightmare, and agree that a lot of overworld bosses are kind of a cakewalk. Playing a game like surgery can be fun. But it doesn't apply here, for reasons I'll point out below. I'll also try and make this as entertaining as possible, but after having done this all day my patience with this event is at its end.

 

For the sake of making this structured, I'll start with addressing the most common arguments I see when people point out how much of a mess this is.

 

First off let me ask you this: Without any context, would you know what I mean when I say "The best counter to a wall is a status or setup sweeper." ? Unless like me you enjoy a pokemon battle every now and again, that probably came off as an unhinged, nonsensical sentence. Keep this in mind as you read further.

 

Argument number 1. "It's good we finally have a map that's more than just standing there, auto-attacking and not much else. That's why it should stay this brutal."/"It's a learning curve, people will learn the mechanics eventually."

Refute number 1: Arguing besides the point - While I agree that difficulty is fun, that's mostly beside the point in this situation because foremost this is less of a skill issue/"learning curve" as some people have been calling it and more that it's comically vulnerable to being sabotaged either by accident or just some random fedorian who wants to ruin the day of others. The failing is generally due to people ruining the green circle strat (which is confusing on its own because so far people are conditioned to stand on green circles). Coaxing new players who don't use Meta builds, people who don't speak the language or just trolls who are trying to ruin it all does not involve skill, in fact it's purely luck based.

Refute number 2: You don't get to speak for everyone else - If you enjoy this difficult HAMBURGER content, that is totally fine, I do too to some extent, but I haven't met a single person in my time playing this event that actually had a good time. In fact, I'm not sure if I can say this on a public forum, but someone in my squad once posted a number to an anti self-harm hotline when we lost (though this could easily have been a really edgy joke). So clearly people aren't enjoying it. In fact, I don't mean to point the finger, but this usually comes from people who already have the turtle/whatever it is people do this event, so it reeks of crab mentality.

Refute 3: Lingo shmingo - "Stay out of green circle, DPS the tail and CC the front. ADS is a problem. Don't res, just use WP when you die." You and I both know what this means because we're likely both long term players. But to a new player this likely sounds as deranged as "The best counter to a wall is a status or setup sweeper.". Point being, even if we do communicate with some of the newer players, they likely don't know what it is we're talking about. "But NuttyHeelorz, if they new and noob, why they in LV80+ area?" you say with confidence. Well call me crazy but I think it has something to do with the fact that every pre order pack had a max level boost included.

Refute 4: How do I learn mind control? - Most of the problem is that it is in fact not a skill issue here. The world limit, luck based matchmaking, painfull actual boss mechanics and stats; and several things inherent to the game like models getting in my way just come together to make something truly irritating. It is not because I don't understand what the boss is trying to get me to do. At the top of my head, how do I learn to coax unco-operative players that's died to respawn at the waypoint rather than wait for revival? Because he's just going to keep laying there and won't listen to me or anyone else. Or how do I learn to join a world that has a place for me that people won't abandon 5 minutes later? A lot of the frustration isn't because of how I play, it's how the game and the boss function as well as the fact that I'm one of many players.

 

Argument number 2. "It's like a raid/strike"

Refute number 1: It's not either of those - Comparing this to high effort end game content is a functionally illogical argument for the simple reason that it's something players are required to do to obtain something that was pretty central to its advertising (more on that later). So strikes and raids are difficult content that require a lot of communication, skill and insider knowledge, which you sign up for knowingly. Meanwhile, this is an overworld meta event where, unlike strikes or raids, kicking people who are ruining the whole thing is not an option. In fact, since it is a large group of 50+ strangers, setting up a call for communications like a raid is not easy.

Refute number 2: Colossal waste of time - To further illustrate the idea that this shouldn't be compared to raids at all, it should be noted that for a raid you don't spend 10+ minutes refreshing squads hoping that their world has space for you. And if by a lot of luck you do end up getting in; you still have to wait around 45 minutes to actually have a shot at what you came for. Then you better hope that the people that had space for you are actually willing to co-ordinate an effort. There's no matchmaking, getting into a group that's willing to work with you is based on pure luck.

Refute number 3: Nacho business, nacho raid clan - When you enter a group, it's already dependent on luck whether people are willing to work for you. I've been doing this meta all day and very rarely are people on the same page. This meta event has a difficulty that leaves little room for error, which on its own is not a problem. The problem is that no one has any control over who joins their group, and that's just a guarantee that 9 times out of 10 it will fail.

Refute number 4: Difficulty/preparation is not the concern - As mentioned before, most people don't mind preparing and planning out a raid, but this isn't a raid, this is base content that should be pretty accessible. On top of that, difficulty is not the issue, the issue is that if one person out of a full map messes up it could ruin over an hour of preparation and effort and because it's such a big group that they can't be kicked out of there is no accountability. Let me put it like this: If I spent a full day ruining raids for people either intentionally or by accident I would be kicked and eventually reported all the time. But I could do this all day on the meta and not face any repercussions, even if players could spot that it was my tiny asura messing up the plan out of the monsoon of charr with wings and norn with robes. And yes, I've had people deliberately ruin the plans of the map today.

Refute number 5: Full house - Raids don't have 50 people, so it's not actually as difficult to select the enemy you wish to target. This very much is the case with the meta event because there is over 50 people on a small platform attacking the same enemies, and often other enemies will get in your way. Disabling model count only does so much, unfortunately.

 

Argument number 3: "The game shouldn't be easy, crybabies can leave as they wish."/"If the turtles are just given away then there's no joy in finally beating the challenge."/"Griffon is also a pain to get, why shouldn't the turtle be?"/"You're just crying because you keep losing."/"If we make it easier now it diminishes the effort the ones who already did it."

Refute number 1: How does the inside of your colon smell? Because you're pretty far up there. - This is mostly directed to arguments resembling the first sentence. I'm not sure how inclusive this game generally is, but considering there's a literal pride march in-game, I have to assume that inclusion is one of the traits Anet wishes to hold up. Excluding players over a lack of skill (which in my case is pretty ridiculous) is probably not the right attitude to have, especially when there are fundamental issues with the event. Additionally, a lot of people, myself included do have work and don't have the time or energy to attain god like skillz. When a game feels like a chore and it's base game, that's no fun.

Refute number 2: Bait style marketing. - Yes, this is about the turtle for myself and a lot of other people. The issue with this argument is that the siege turtle was pretty central to why people bought the game. Comparing it to the griffon is not really a logical argument for the simple reason that the Griffon wasn't central to Path of Fire. This is closer to if the raptor was extremely difficult to get, because both the raptor and turtle were a pretty big pull as to why people got the game. It can't even really be compared to the skyscale or beetle, because again those weren't full expansion packs where they were the main draw to tons of people.

Refute number 3: Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know this was the weapon X program. - This is one of the dumbest arguments I've seen today, because it acknowledges that the boss is way harder than it needs to be in a sense, but let's keep it "because It was a pain in my WHOPPER so it should be for everyone else too.". I do believe that is a form of crab mentality? But really, I think this is sort of a weird thing to say. Especially since as I pointed out before, someone that toiled for this turtle might have been able to do so simply because they ammassed the skills and time required to do so in addition to being lucky enough to run into the right squad and world. But that's not fortune everyone else have. At the root, a lot of people have a dayjob and other activities, and at the top of the tree there's still the issue that running into a co-operative team that has place for you is very luck based.

 

Argument number 4: "Do you really think Anet is going to remove an entire boss phase because YOU have a problem with it?"

Refute number 1: I'm not asking them, I'm telling you - First of all when someone is complaining about the event that's usually because they're frustrated due to having failed several times in a row. I'm not expecting Anet to do anything at all, let alone cut out an entire boss phase and I don't think anyone else is either. But that doesn't mean the boss is flawless and can't be criticised/complained about. Hard games are fun because you can try and try again and eventually you beat it and it feels like you climbed a mountain, but it never feels like a chore. Here you have to do at least an hour of prep, deal with the nightmare that is finding a world with a squad that has place for you and even then you better hope some troll isn't going to sabotage it just for the funny. It's not a skill issue, it's just little wrinkles of game design that come together to make something truly infuriating. Unlike with a fun hard game, I'm not excited to try again. I just want to get it over with and I've seen this sentiment from everyone else I played with.

 

Those are the most common arguments I've seen trying to defend the event's difficulty all day. Now let me move on to why the event is way too difficult and what should be adjusted as well as why. Though keep in mind that when it comes to game design I've only done art direction and funding.

 

Number 1: Too many cooks spoil the broth - I don't think I need to point out that trying to wrangle no less than 50 people onto a certain objective is a job that should quite honestly be paid for, but just visualize how many people that is. You'd likely struggle to get 20 people in the study/bedroom you have your computer in, let alone 50. And that's not even mentioning the fact that that's 50 people you don't get to choose, some of them might not speak the language, might not have chat on (in a co-op event mind you) or some might even be looking to ruin your day just for the funsies. Making the event into a dungeon or a fractal would make it a lot more enjoyable, especially since then you are knowingly signing up for it. Another fix would be to tweak the green circle mechanic a bit to only punish the people who step on it, not the whole group and turn avoiding the thing into an intended mechanic rather than the repercussions for failure just potentially being quicker. Making it into its own instanced thing is a lot of effort, I know this.

Number 2: Turtle removal - If the artificial difficulty of the meta event really is that much of a selling point, detach it from the turtle that all low to medium effort players are there for. There's no real reason it should be attached to that event specifically, they could just make it a story completion thing. "But Notahealurz, w/ the pepl just trying to get the turtle gone, there would not be much people participating in teh evend! we won't haev enough peopol" I hear you moan as you lean back into your chair. And yes, you will no longer have the general playerbase there complaining and just generally not having a good time, leaving you with only the people dedicated to doing the event and seeing it to the end who are willing to co-ordinate efforts and such. In short, what seems like a loss is actually a win for everyone. You'll no longer have to deal with people who don't have their heart in it, and I won't have to want to beat myself with a stick when someone messes up over an hour of effort again. Plus it is my understanding you need to do this meta event for legendaries anyway, so there's still high tier commodities to justify the effort without the turtle.

Number 3: Mandatory speedrun - Another core issue with this event is that you get exactly 20 minutes, and  you're working with people who may not necessarily be using meta DPS builds, so it is bound to take ages. I've done runs where we did nearly everything according to plan and got most of the people to follow it, and we still came like 2 and a half minutes short, and mind you we nearly had raid style communication here. Adding like 5 more minutes would still make it challenging enough to be enjoyable (I still think the event would fail the majority of the time) but it would at least be doable without setting up your own world. It would definitely make stuff a lot less painfull.

Number 4: Damage sponge - Listen, I know that if everyone is running some top tier DPS build this boss who i will refer to as wongburger to avoid spoilers wouldn't be a bullet sponge at all. But you need to understand that this is a group full of randos who may just be running stuff they find helpful and not consider stuff that's meta. Example: For the longest time i hailed defiant stance as one of the most effective healing skills ever, because you can get a full heal from poor timing. Problem is, berserkers use their heal skill to extend berserk. I know that, but the average person playing that might not. And that is assuming they're fully specced anyway.

Number 5: It's nerf or nothing - A last resort, because the boss would be enjoyable if it weren't for all the BS surrounding it. But the splitting up into groups to attack tail, jump to avoid a wave, kill bosses to progress the actual boss, it's all a bit much for an overworld boss and honestly feels like it should be a fractal. Reducing wongburger or any of their minions' health would also make this a lot more bearable, even if that would be kind of lame.

 

Something else that I just thought of at the top of my head. Given how packed these servers are, what if someone disconnects while the fight is ongoing, does he just have to frantically have to find a squad in a world with space for him or does he just miss out on the turtle? The problem here really is a combination of a lot of things:

1. It's a lot of time and effort for something that convinced a lot of people to get it.

2. If one guy messes up it's 1 hour of work down the drain in one go.

3. One of the strats literally revolves around intentionally taking a less because the punishment is faster than just doing it.

4. You have to wrangle over 50 people who may not be willing or capable of talking to you.

5. You can't just try again, you need to do the whole prep work and sit through every bit of dialogue, it's exhausting. And that is assuming you can find a group with space for you.

6. It's novel and all, but having to do it over and over again is no fun.

 

I'm aware forum posts are about as effective as an angry tweet, but the post is less directed at Anet themselves and more the people who are so zealously arguing in favor of the difficulty of this specific event. There's a lot of bad faith arguments I've seen today just in the game, and I've read a few forum posts specifically directed at Anet devs that bordered on being cringey as they read as a child's open letter to the president to stop world hunger or something. I'm open to counter arguments, of course because I'm not that much of a numbnuts, but I have made sure to list the arguments I have encountered so far and refuted them to the best of my ability. From this it should also be pretty clear this isn't a rage post, because the event is enjoyable. I just think it's a bit ridiculous there's people who have done 11 attempts in a row with no fruition.

 

I'm probably going to limit myself to 3 attempts every day until I get it. I really do hope Anet eventually provides some way out of this but I wouldn't bet the farm on it since so many people are acting as if this crapshoot of a boss is like their child or something. Most people complain about these things but there's always those few god gamers that want games to be painful, and it just creates a really toxic environment in groups where you already need to co-operate. I know I'm blessed to be in a position where I can play video games in my free time and all, but quite frankly this meta event was kind of exhausting, and someone in my guild I've now seen angry for the first time. I just wish it was a bit more bearable and people were a bit more understanding of that.

 

Anyway, I hope this makes sense. I've tried to make it an entertaining read, but you know it doesn't always work. Let me know what you think.

Add a paragraph about the terrible RNG of "wongburgers" (god, i love that name) moves, and this post can be printed out, put into a golden envelope and be directly delivered to Mr and Mrs Anet.

[Notaheal.9841]

I've been busy doing guild stuff for a while, but I beat the event shortly before the first update regarding the meta event dropped. First off, the turtle is pretty good and it will make a major appearance in the comic.

 

But again, I got really lucky that the squad I joined had a guy willing to take charge over 50 for a while event, and we eventually managed to shoo everyone off of a given shard, except for one guy who will literally had to pay to leave. I hope that 50 gold kickstarts a really bad gambling addiction. So the event is even more vulnerable to disruption than I initially thought.

 

I now realize it's not just being lucky in terms of finding a squad, shard and no trolls. Another factor is builds: I was lucky that I'm overall a decent support player and just had an alacrity mesmer laying around. So yes, I'm not sure how vulnerable it is now because we're a few patches in but if it's still anywhere near as bad as it was it still needs fixes. There's so many moving parts at play that the stars really do need to align in your favor for it to work. Frankly, i should have bought a lottery ticket.

 

Little side note: It's not as if your problems are over when you do beat it, you need to do like 4 meta events and a strike as well as 2 very specific normal events to complete the collection. Also the price for carrots shot up faster than bitcoin, so it's doing comedic things to the market. Just to point something out: as if to add insult to injury the person you need to deliver the eggs to is kind of tucked away.

[Notaheal.9841]

On 3/6/2022 at 11:19 PM, somsom.5201 said:

Yeah that whole map is just going to be dead in a couple months time. It's a time consuming, boring, RNG filled, kitten fest.

I can confirm that after the pure kitten I had to put up with, I never want to see that map again. So yes, it is going to be a full blown wasteland once everyone got their turtle and no one wants to do it anymore, which means that at some point it will be impossible to get, because the rewards themselves aren't that good.

[Zok.4956]

On 3/3/2022 at 1:44 PM, Zok.4956 said:

There are also players that are not very good at JPs and they, after they understood what they should do, could not do this in time.

Yes, I know, it seems easy to fly back to the top from the ground as a wisp. But for some players it is not.

And I want to add another option: I know of four players (including myself ...shame ...) that thought on their first try that the goal was to collect as much orbs as possible in the whisp phase (we collected a lot items in the pre-events, that it seemed obvious) and not to get up to the platform as fast as possible.

[Junkpile.7439]

Well it probably will be like triple trouble. People can do it every time if they try, they just don't try that often. That is ok and better than these afk bosses like claw of jormag. Haven't done those in years because too boring.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Junkpile.7439

[Hobin Rude.1672]

+1 EoD was really great, except of this last meta.
I failed now 4 times in a row in this 2h meta, which is frustrating and a waste of my spare time.
There is so much chaos that you just get slide shows until dead, without any learn effect because you dont see what killed you.
Then it takes 2h (1h required prep and 1h meta) and you fail again.
This is just frustrating, not fun at all...
@ANet: Just nerv this boss or remove some of that chaos.

[Iva Na.5740]

On 3/6/2022 at 5:19 PM, somsom.5201 said:

Yeah that whole map is just going to be dead in a couple months time. It's a time consuming, boring, RNG filled, kitten fest.

Agree with that. I finally got that turtle egg (luck? YEP) and now I won’t show my face there. I love metas and under other circumstances I would be coming back daily. It is by far the most unpleasant waste of time. 

[Kalocin.5982]

I find it funny because WoW stopped doing 40 man raids way back in the day because it was too difficult to balance and also hard for guilds to prep that many players. Eventually they moved to a scalable 25 man raid system. They figured that out years ago and while WoW's quality is in the toilet now, they had a lot right back in the day and this was one of em

[Teunis.6427]

I got my turtle with a hardstuck group, no amount of loot/gold can make me go back until the average pug is able to kill it +95% of the time. (And tbh for 2h of ‘fun’ I want 99.9% success rate)
The amount of effort (15+ mins of Join in …) you have put just to get in somewhat decent group (with sub grouping, food buffs etc), and with high chance of fail is just not worth my time/frustration !

 

And I doubt if an infusion drop will prevent that DE will die out in its current form.

(That current expectation for next Tuesday patch)

[Notaheal.9841]

Did they fix it yet or is it still a major pain in the B I G  M A C