*SPOILER* confused about the ending

[artcreator.4859]

I am confused about the ending and wondering if anyone can explain. Why is everything all right after we kill soo won? Hasn't the entire story been about bad things happening when you release an elder dragon's magic upon the world.  In the end, aurene says her magic returned to the ley-lines and has balanced out, not causing any problems for now. Why did it not cause a problem this time but has caused a problem every other time?

[Myror.7521]

 

 

Spoilers for Story here!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Bad thing that could happening to the World was the emptyness. Since we somehow Managed to kill both dragon and the dragonemptyness and aurene balance out the leylinemagic everything is okaish now.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

1 hour ago, artcreator.4859 said:

I am confused about the ending and wondering if anyone can explain. Why is everything all right after we kill soo won? Hasn't the entire story been about bad things happening when you release an elder dragon's magic upon the world.  In the end, aurene says her magic returned to the ley-lines and has balanced out, not causing any problems for now. Why did it not cause a problem this time but has caused a problem every other time?

SPOILERS FOR END OF DRAGONS

No, this was a misconception that we had. We saw cause and effect, but didn't understand the true nature behind everything. The real problem was that dragons existed to begin with.

 

Soo-Won created everything from the nothing (the Void), which is also actually everything but disorganised, chaotic, and unsuitable to life. After this she tried to filter the Void out of life, which is itself magic, to maintain order, but couldn't manage to do so on her own, so she had children who would help her filter it by splitting up the domains into a filtering mechanism--The All--with their hearts (orbs) as the catalysts.

 

The entire world of Tyria was created and maintained out of her love, and theirs.

 

This backfired, as the Void slowly seeped into their minds and drove them into cycles of destruction again and again. This kept the magic stable, allowing life to exist, but only in short bursts of peace followed by violent interludes where the Void was free to consume all life on Tyria, although not destroying it completely because the dragons always went to sleep. After sleeping, and leaking all the tainted magic out back into the world, they could recover somewhat--like with Jormag at the start of IBS--but it would always happen again--like with Jormag at the end of IBS, where they went mad to the point of suiciding.

 

When we were killing the five other Elder Dragons, we weren't actually killing /them/, but their broken husks overwhelmed with the presence of the Void inside their own imprisoned minds. We get to see this happen first-hand in the Dragon's End meta event, and its very sad.

 

As long as they existed, they would always provide a conduit for the Void to return to Tyria, because arcane magic, dragon magic, ley energy and void energy are all the same, just at different states depending on the level of filtration. But there's no filter that is completely efficient for removing it, so it always comes back. Not even the Elder Dragons themselves were able to filter it out completely.

 

Thus the Void is the manifestation of negativity, inevitability, and impossibility.

 

So basically, their existence was flawed to begin with, as they failed at their entire reason for existing, and needed to be replaced with a more efficient filter (Aurene), but we don't know if even she is efficient enough, or if the cycle is truly over. Just that its been sated for now, with all the ambient corruption gone form Tyria.

 

What we do know about Aurene is her resistance seems to have something to do with her being born with corrupted dragon magic already present in her physiology to begin with, since she immediately inherited Zhaitan and Mordremoth's domains of magic as an egg. It may also have something to do with Balthazar, who was able to convert dragon magic into pure god magic somehow, likely having to do with being from a different world entirely, as the dragon cycle seems specific to Tyria (though the Void is likely universal).

 

However, its specifically stated in the story that she's not confirmed to be immune, just resistant. So while the cycle may be over for the lifetime of your average Tyria, it may return some day.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[DanAlcedo.3281]

4 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

SPOILERS FOR END OF DRAGONS

No, this was a misconception that we had. We saw cause and effect, but didn't understand the true nature behind everything. The real problem was that dragons existed to begin with.

 

Soo-Won created everything from the nothing (the Void), which is also actually everything but disorganised, chaotic, and unsuitable to life. After this she tried to filter the Void out of life, which is itself magic, to maintain order, but couldn't manage to do so on her own, so she had children who would help her filter it by splitting up the domains into a filtering mechanism--The All--with their hearts (orbs) as the catalysts.

 

The entire world of Tyria was created and maintained out of her love, and theirs.

 

This backfired, as the Void slowly seeped into their minds and drove them into cycles of destruction again and again. This kept the magic stable, allowing life to exist, but only in short bursts of peace followed by violent interludes where the Void was free to consume all life on Tyria, although not destroying it completely because the dragons always went to sleep. After sleeping, and leaking all the tainted magic out back into the world, they could recover somewhat--like with Jormag at the start of IBS--but it would always happen again--like with Jormag at the end of IBS, where they went mad to the point of suiciding.

 

When we were killing the five other Elder Dragons, we weren't actually killing /them/, but their broken husks overwhelmed with the presence of the Void inside their own imprisoned minds. We get to see this happen first-hand in the Dragon's End meta event, and its very sad.

 

As long as they existed, they would always provide a conduit for the Void to return to Tyria, because arcane magic, dragon magic, ley energy and void energy are all the same, just at different states depending on the level of filtration. But there's no filter that is completely efficient for removing it, so it always comes back. Not even the Elder Dragons themselves were able to filter it out completely.

 

Thus the Void is the manifestation of negativity, inevitability, and impossibility.

 

So basically, their existence was flawed to begin with, as they failed at their entire reason for existing, and needed to be replaced with a more efficient filter (Aurene), but we don't know if even she is efficient enough, or if the cycle is truly over. Just that its been sated for now, with all the ambient corruption gone form Tyria.

 

What we do know about Aurene is her resistance seems to have something to do with her being born with corrupted dragon magic already present in her physiology to begin with, since she immediately inherited Zhaitan and Mordremoth's domains of magic as an egg. It may also have something to do with Balthazar, who was able to convert dragon magic into pure god magic somehow, likely having to do with being from a different world entirely, as the dragon cycle seems specific to Tyria (though the Void is likely universal).

 

However, its specifically stated in the story that she's not confirmed to be immune, just resistant. So while the cycle may be over for the lifetime of your average Tyria, it may return some day.

Basically a closed Waterpipe system with 6 filters in it, with the goal of filtering out bacteria. 

But the filters become dirty overtime and therefore hosts for the bacteria themselve. 

Which means they cause more harm then good. 

 

Aurene is a new tech filtration system, resistant to the bacteria. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by DanAlcedo.3281

[ugrakarma.9416]

Basically Aurene is a different "kind" of elder dragon with greater filter capabilites(notice  filter word is very utilized in that history) than previous EDs.

 

In a way shes become some sort like the former god Balthazar, a being with greater magical handling capabilities.

[FoxBat.6295]

Lots of weird headcannon in here, but it's excusable because there have also been some EoD retcons that I think people are trying to reconcile that they shouldn't.

 

According to Soo-Won, the elder dragons do bad things (like cyclically consume societies) because "it is their nature," because there were "made as just tools to combat the void." It is not because the void is driving them insane, if anything it's their obsession with their one, specific domain of magic, as Soo-Won noted as they matured and their family fell apart. As immortal beings created before mortals even existed, its not even strange that they are utterly insensitive to what look like ants to them. Even while living apart over the millenia, they mostly avoided attacking each other and encroaching on each other's turf. As noted Zhaitan could not even corrupt Mordremoth's Sylvari.  Kralk even valued his dragonkin as family. They played the role they were meant to, holding up reality by keeping the magics separated and pure at any cost.

 

There is an issue with corruption and insanity, but that is entirely about the mixing of magic types, which only came up in the current cycle. When Zhaitan died and his magic started seeping into the other dragons, that was corruption, not because Zhaitan magic is bad in and of itself, but because it was mixing of magic types that were not meant to mix, bringing us closer to void. Kralk was never a nice guy to mortals, but he was not "insane" in the way he became after drinking in Zhaitan and Mordremoth. Primordus and Jormag did not start fighting each other for territory until they drank in other dragon magics; in fact they didn't even feel like moving from their original turf until they got flooded with zhaitan/mordy magic in LS3. There's no hint of Soo-Won having any insanity issues until the current cycle, where she is flooded with mixed/void magics from the death of the other EDs.

 

Aurene, as a Kralk-descendent egg, being bathed in Zhaitan and Mordremoth's magic, is supposed to be the catalyst for her developing prismatic abilities. That is the unique power Kralk talked about. A prism takes completely mixed light (white) and divides it up into the distinct colors of the spectrum. Similarly in EoD Aurene takes void magic (which is all-magic mixed together) and filters by dividing it up into separate types (probably the same six that correspond to the dragons.)

 

In short the implication of EoD, is that corruption = void = mixed magic, purity = prism = separated magic. I know that this understanding conflicts with earlier information about the Forgotten who were able to "cleanse corruption" from Glint and Orrian chickens and such. But Soo-Won is suggesting that nothing was magically corrupt about Zhaitan. He and the others were built as flawed tools, who kept up their original job, until the civilizations of Tyria broke the current cycle by killing EDs and mixing the magic types. By chance we arrived at Aurene who is both a better tool (can separate all magic types by herself) and grew up alongside mortals, so will have some kinship and care for them. And also not single-mindedly obsessed with one domain as happened with the original EDs.

Edited March 8, 2022 by FoxBat.6295

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 3/4/2022 at 2:09 AM, artcreator.4859 said:

I am confused about the ending and wondering if anyone can explain. Why is everything all right after we kill soo won? Hasn't the entire story been about bad things happening when you release an elder dragon's magic upon the world.  In the end, aurene says her magic returned to the ley-lines and has balanced out, not causing any problems for now. Why did it not cause a problem this time but has caused a problem every other time?

Combination of the extractor and Aurene basically.

From the get go it was being explained that Aurene can "cleanse" the "corrupted" magic. This is what the Dragon's End meta is all about - using Aurene's power and prisms to filter and cleans the Void into non-harmful magic ley-line magic. When Soo-Won is first introduced in EoD, it's a discussion about this very thing, and Soo-Won wanting Aurene to replace her proper.

And in the epilogue in Arborstone, Aurene establishes that while the Dragonvoid is cleansed and gone, Void itself is not - because Void is a constant and will forever be part of the world. But it's subdued and Aurene will be capable of instantly knowing when it starts acting up again, and quelling it before it can become an issue.

On 3/4/2022 at 2:50 AM, Hannelore.8153 said:

However, its specifically stated in the story that she's not confirmed to be immune, just resistant. So while the cycle may be over for the lifetime of your average Tyria, it may return some day.

It's more that she appears to be immune, with no indication otherwise, but people are wary of the possibility that the belief is wrong.

1 hour ago, FoxBat.6295 said:

Lots of weird headcannon in here, but it's excusable because there have also been some EoD retcons that I think people are trying to reconcile that they shouldn't.

[...]

There is an issue with corruption and insanity, but that is entirely about the mixing of magic types, which only came up in the current cycle. When Zhaitan died and his magic started seeping into the other dragons, that was corruption, not because Zhaitan magic is bad in and of itself, but because it was mixing of magic types that were not meant to mix, bringing us closer to void. Kralk was never a nice guy to mortals, but he was not "insane" in the way he became after drinking in Zhaitan and Mordremoth. Primordus and Jormag did not start fighting each other for territory until they drank in other dragon magics; in fact they didn't even feel like moving from their original turf until they got flooded with zhaitan/mordy magic in LS3. There's no hint of Soo-Won having any insanity issues until the current cycle, where she is flooded with mixed/void magics from the death of the other EDs.

One thing blatantly wrong here - and this is no retcon in S4 - is that Kralkatorrik was insane before Zhaitan's death. Edge of Destiny features Snaff delving into Kralkatorrik's mind, and the portrayal here is exactly what Kralkatorrik's Torment - or the Dragonvoid's influence on him - turned out to be. Kralkatorrik was driven to kill Glint because of the Torment / Dragonvoid as well, and this is because of one simple fact you're ignoring and proclaiming "it's a retcon":

The Elder Dragons eat wholly from the ley-lines.

And ley-lines are combined magic, of all domains.

And similarly, Primordus and Jormag fought in the previous Dragonrise per Drizzlewood, just as Primordus sent destroyers after baby Vlast in GW1 and baby Aurene in S3. Again not a retcon, though you're apparently interpreting it as such. And Primordus and Jormag did move from their original turf - Jormag woke up far to the north, in/near Kodan lands, while Primordus is explicitly stated to have moved around the Depths after waking (though per S3, he eventually returned to the Central Transfer Chamber area). 

1 hour ago, FoxBat.6295 said:

In short the implication of EoD, is that corruption = void = mixed magic, purity = prism = separated magic. I know that this understanding conflicts with earlier information about the Forgotten who were able to "cleanse corruption" from Glint and Orrian chickens and such. But Soo-Won is suggesting that nothing was magically corrupt about Zhaitan. He and the others were built as flawed tools, who kept up their original job, until the civilizations of Tyria broke the current cycle by killing EDs and mixing the magic types. By chance we arrived at Aurene who is both a better tool (can separate all magic types by herself) and grew up alongside mortals, so will have some kinship and care for them. And also not single-mindedly obsessed with one domain as happened with the original EDs.

End of Dragons makes it clear that both ley-lines and void are mixed magic, and prisms isn't separating the magic so much as filtering. What Aurene is doing is taking void, separating it via prism, then recombining it into ley-lines via herself. This is her "filtering out" the Dragonvoid's influence from magic. The Dragonvoid itself being a manifestation of the Void born from the personalities of the six Elder Dragons after eons of interaction. The Void influenced the Elder Dragons and the Elder Dragons influenced the Void to form Dragonvoid.

I haven't gotten a chance to see the post-Dragon's End dialogue, so I can't say about "Soo-Won is suggesting that nothing was magically corrupt about Zhaitan" though. But you're missing one fact, and that is there are two separate kinds of corruption being talked about. The corruption mentioned earlier with Glint and Orrian chickens is dragon corruption, while what's twisting the Elder Dragons into malicious beings is void corruption also called dragonvoid. The difference may seem subtle as they are indeed related, but they're also distinct - dragon corruption is a singular domain being twisted by the Elder Dragon, who in turn was being twisted by the Void's influence which became dragonvoid within Soo-Won.

The other five Elder Dragons were never infected by dragonvoid, per se, because dragonvoid required all six domains to manifest.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

18 hours ago, FoxBat.6295 said:

Lots of weird headcannon in here, but it's excusable because there have also been some EoD retcons that I think people are trying to reconcile that they shouldn't.

 

According to Soo-Won, the elder dragons do bad things (like cyclically consume societies) because "it is their nature," because there were "made as just tools to combat the void." It is not because the void is driving them insane, if anything it's their obsession with their one, specific domain of magic, as Soo-Won noted as they matured and their family fell apart. As immortal beings created before mortals even existed, its not even strange that they are utterly insensitive to what look like ants to them. Even while living apart over the millenia, they mostly avoided attacking each other and encroaching on each other's turf. As noted Zhaitan could not even corrupt Mordremoth's Sylvari.  Kralk even valued his dragonkin as family. They played the role they were meant to, holding up reality by keeping the magics separated and pure at any cost.

 

There is an issue with corruption and insanity, but that is entirely about the mixing of magic types, which only came up in the current cycle. When Zhaitan died and his magic started seeping into the other dragons, that was corruption, not because Zhaitan magic is bad in and of itself, but because it was mixing of magic types that were not meant to mix, bringing us closer to void. Kralk was never a nice guy to mortals, but he was not "insane" in the way he became after drinking in Zhaitan and Mordremoth. Primordus and Jormag did not start fighting each other for territory until they drank in other dragon magics; in fact they didn't even feel like moving from their original turf until they got flooded with zhaitan/mordy magic in LS3. There's no hint of Soo-Won having any insanity issues until the current cycle, where she is flooded with mixed/void magics from the death of the other EDs.

 

Aurene, as a Kralk-descendent egg, being bathed in Zhaitan and Mordremoth's magic, is supposed to be the catalyst for her developing prismatic abilities. That is the unique power Kralk talked about. A prism takes completely mixed light (white) and divides it up into the distinct colors of the spectrum. Similarly in EoD Aurene takes void magic (which is all-magic mixed together) and filters by dividing it up into separate types (probably the same six that correspond to the dragons.)

 

In short the implication of EoD, is that corruption = void = mixed magic, purity = prism = separated magic. I know that this understanding conflicts with earlier information about the Forgotten who were able to "cleanse corruption" from Glint and Orrian chickens and such. But Soo-Won is suggesting that nothing was magically corrupt about Zhaitan. He and the others were built as flawed tools, who kept up their original job, until the civilizations of Tyria broke the current cycle by killing EDs and mixing the magic types. By chance we arrived at Aurene who is both a better tool (can separate all magic types by herself) and grew up alongside mortals, so will have some kinship and care for them. And also not single-mindedly obsessed with one domain as happened with the original EDs.

SPOILERS FOR PERSONAL STORY AND END OF DRAGONS

I've seen no headcannon in this thread. Everything I and others said is stated directly in game, though not through linear dialogue especially since some of it is only accessible in Dragon's End.

 

Some of it has actually been stated in previous seasons it just didn't have any context yet. Like how Soo-Won created the Eyes of the Ocean as an act of good faith to protect Cantha against Zhaitan which were stolen and one of them became the Krait Orb that we used to defend Fort Trinity against the same threat.

 

Its all there, through the story, events, hearts, meta dialogue and post-story interactions. The devs went out of their way to explain pretty much everything to those who are willing to look for it.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[Kalavier.1097]

16 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

Some of it has actually been stated in previous seasons it just didn't have any context yet. Like how Soo-Won created the Eyes of the Ocean as an act of good faith to protect Cantha against Zhaitan which were stolen and one of them became the Krait Orb that we used to defend Fort Trinity against the same threat.

 

Its all there, through the story, events, hearts, meta dialogue and post-story interactions. The devs went out of their way to explain pretty much everything to those who are willing to look for it.

 

I was wondering if the eyes of the ocean were an item she had already made, but when she left the deep waters they got scattered. So the Krait had some of them (one which the Pact Stole), and maybe others elsewhere, but most ended up at Cantha because she wanted them too.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

7 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

 

I was wondering if the eyes of the ocean were an item she had already made, but when she left the deep waters they got scattered. So the Krait had some of them (one which the Pact Stole), and maybe others elsewhere, but most ended up at Cantha because she wanted them too.

SPOILERS FOR PERSONAL STORY AND END OF DRAGONS

We'll likely never know the true purpose but looking at the history of the world its quite possible she originally created them to try and keep Zhaitan himself free of corruption (similar to the Forgotten purification ritual) but the power he gained from the fallen kingdom of Orr and the ley nexus at the Artesian Waters was too great.

 

I don't remember the exact wording but it was supposedly the most powerful source of magic on the planet which is why the Human Gods settled there after being drawn to it all the way from the Mists.

 

Maybe the devs will elaborate on the backstory of everything in LWS6.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[psi.9304]

I know this off tpoic perse but What are these deep sea horrors all these underwater races talking about/ running away from, I ask this because it seem highly unlike to be Soo-Won minions...

[Kalavier.1097]

7 hours ago, psi.9304 said:

I know this off tpoic perse but What are these deep sea horrors all these underwater races talking about/ running away from, I ask this because it seem highly unlike to be Soo-Won minions...

 

They mention the Krait exodus from the deep IIRC, matches the time when Soo-won went to cantha. As far as I know the horrors have never been personally seen, just speculated.

And frankly if you are sitting there with information that basically just says "The krait fled the deep, deep parts of the oceans, slaughtered the Quaggan royalty and kept going." You'd likely assume whatever they fled from is very, very bad.

 

If their city/obelisks that they worshiped happened to be resting right on Soo-won's resting/waiting place, and she zoomed off to help Cantha that could have destroyed their home and sent them running.

[Dondarrion.2748]

On 3/4/2022 at 1:34 PM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Basically a closed Waterpipe system with 6 filters in it, with the goal of filtering out bacteria. 

But the filters become dirty overtime and therefore hosts for the bacteria themselve. 

Which means they cause more harm then good. 

Aurene is a new tech filtration system, resistant to the bacteria. 

Haha, this was a fantastic analogy 😄

But, this basically makes us the plumbers... so the whole game is actually just Super Mario Bros in disguise?

[DanAlcedo.3281]

17 minutes ago, Dondarrion.2748 said:

Haha, this was a fantastic analogy 😄

But, this basically makes us the plumbers... so the whole game is actually just Super Mario Bros in disguise?

With all the jumping?

Waaaahoooo! 

[Zola.6197]

22 hours ago, psi.9304 said:

I know this off tpoic perse but What are these deep sea horrors all these underwater races talking about/ running away from, I ask this because it seem highly unlike to be Soo-Won minions...

There are a few NPCs in the expansion that establish the idea that Soo-Won and the “deep sea horrors” that pushed those races out are two separate entities. Magister Ela Makkay shows up in New Kaineng and purports that it was “assumed” the DSD was responsible and that the oceanic races fleeing the ocean coincide with Soo-Won leaving the depths, hinting that something powerful must’ve taken over her territory once she left, which then drove the other races from the ocean.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Zola.6197

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

17 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

They mention the Krait exodus from the deep IIRC, matches the time when Soo-won went to cantha. As far as I know the horrors have never been personally seen, just speculated.

Well, yes and no. There's... conflictions across the board.

 

First, regarding the timeline. According to Season 2 and Heart of Thorns, Soo-Won's orb became active after Primordus' and before Jormag's. This places her "waking" at sometime between 1120 and 1165 AE. No issue there. However, the krait and quaggan only fled the depths 50 years prior to the game - circa 1270 AE. This is where our first kurfufle snag comes in.

There are reports stating that Soo-Won showed up in Cantha during the tidal wave hitting Cantha, with reports of a second, smaller tidal wave hitting the first one caused by Zhaitan. A small oddity, IMO, given how utterly devastating Zhaitan's tidal wave was - you'd think the Elder Dragon of Water who's been awake for 100-ish years would be capable of countering that tidal wave completely, or at least to a greater effect. The problem here, however, is that Zhaitan woke up 100 years before GW2 - in 1219 AE.

So did Soo-Won leave the ocean depths in 1219 AE, or 1270-ish AE?

 

The second issue is that we have Bullablopp outright say it was dragons that forced the quaggans out of their homes - not some generic horrors like other groups, but straight up dragons influence.  This indicates that the horrors have been personally seen by the refugees reaching Tyria - and they shared the tale, which Priory members heard, and then blamed the deep sea dragon. But the first hand accounts still say "dragons", and they'd be capable of clarifying if they meant risen or something else (the only two Elder Dragons capable of interfering with them). The "fix" to this issue is to simply say that the refugees misunderstood what they saw, but that feels like stretching it, because it's clear from dev comments that the original intention was full out meant to be that the DSD was evil too.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

On 3/4/2022 at 7:50 AM, Hannelore.8153 said:

Thus the Void is the manifestation of negativity, inevitability, and impossibility.

Just gonna pick this one. That's not exactly the case. The Void isn't about negativity and impossibility, rather it's an abstract sense of how everything exists but creates nothing because of how chaotic it is. Gorrik actually explained this very well in that reality as we know it would twist and turn that it becomes so illogical, it's just a mish mash of everything that leads to nothing. Even Ankka reiterates this statement in Act 3 on how the world's natural order is just pure chaos with no "cycle" of any sort. She wanted to be the one to break that cycle and return the World of Tyria to its primordial form, which is The Void. 

Soo-Won also reiterates this in that when she was created, The Void was just everything warping into a naturally chaotic nature that had no sense of purpose and logic. She was able to influence The Void so that it stabilized and eventually moulded itself into the World of Tyria. However due to her powers inherently being tied to water, she had to create the other Elder Dragons to maintain the core elements surrounding The Void. 

Aurene's entire existence serves two core functions: To filter out the influence of the other Elder Dragons that created the Dragonvoid, and to maintain the order and logic created through The Void to ensure Tyria doesn't collapse on itself and return to the chaos that creates nothing.

We all know how she does the filtering stuff, but how she maintains The Void's stabilized form is exactly what Konig said; she converts it into something Tyrians understand which is Magic. 

[Bast.7253]

On 3/4/2022 at 2:50 AM, Hannelore.8153 said:

SPOILERS FOR END OF DRAGONS

No, this was a misconception that we had. We saw cause and effect, but didn't understand the true nature behind everything. The real problem was that dragons existed to begin with.

 

Soo-Won created everything from the nothing (the Void), which is also actually everything but disorganised, chaotic, and unsuitable to life. After this she tried to filter the Void out of life, which is itself magic, to maintain order, but couldn't manage to do so on her own, so she had children who would help her filter it by splitting up the domains into a filtering mechanism--The All--with their hearts (orbs) as the catalysts.

 

The entire world of Tyria was created and maintained out of her love, and theirs.

 

This backfired, as the Void slowly seeped into their minds and drove them into cycles of destruction again and again. This kept the magic stable, allowing life to exist, but only in short bursts of peace followed by violent interludes where the Void was free to consume all life on Tyria, although not destroying it completely because the dragons always went to sleep. After sleeping, and leaking all the tainted magic out back into the world, they could recover somewhat--like with Jormag at the start of IBS--but it would always happen again--like with Jormag at the end of IBS, where they went mad to the point of suiciding.

 

When we were killing the five other Elder Dragons, we weren't actually killing /them/, but their broken husks overwhelmed with the presence of the Void inside their own imprisoned minds. We get to see this happen first-hand in the Dragon's End meta event, and its very sad.

 

As long as they existed, they would always provide a conduit for the Void to return to Tyria, because arcane magic, dragon magic, ley energy and void energy are all the same, just at different states depending on the level of filtration. But there's no filter that is completely efficient for removing it, so it always comes back. Not even the Elder Dragons themselves were able to filter it out completely.

 

Thus the Void is the manifestation of negativity, inevitability, and impossibility.

 

So basically, their existence was flawed to begin with, as they failed at their entire reason for existing, and needed to be replaced with a more efficient filter (Aurene), but we don't know if even she is efficient enough, or if the cycle is truly over. Just that its been sated for now, with all the ambient corruption gone form Tyria.

 

What we do know about Aurene is her resistance seems to have something to do with her being born with corrupted dragon magic already present in her physiology to begin with, since she immediately inherited Zhaitan and Mordremoth's domains of magic as an egg. It may also have something to do with Balthazar, who was able to convert dragon magic into pure god magic somehow, likely having to do with being from a different world entirely, as the dragon cycle seems specific to Tyria (though the Void is likely universal).

 

However, its specifically stated in the story that she's not confirmed to be immune, just resistant. So while the cycle may be over for the lifetime of your average Tyria, it may return some day.

Balthazar was my thinking. She absorbed all these different kinds of magic and developed immunity to them before she ascended and absorbed Kralk's heart (and had a direct link to the very primal form of the original magics.) 

That party I'm iffy on but the fact that Aurene has natural resistance, and Soo Won was maintaining control/resistance over the void when she was in the containment cell being powered by... dragon jade.. jade that was infused with Dwayna's magic. 

I think there's somekind of key to the magic signature of ability of the gods allow resistance over the void. 

Perhaps the void is just something that plagues all realities and by infusing the elder dragon magic with divine magic, or at least the signature of it, they're able to filter out magic better? 

Maybe the solution to permanently being free of the void is to have Aurene repeat Soo Won's legacy of starting a brood, but receiving the gods' blessings on them first? 

This part of the story was just so rushed and short. And the extra lore tidbits I've found have only been in Mother's Lament on a successful meta. Kind of a lame way to lock off dialogue like that.

[HotDelirium.7984]

On 3/4/2022 at 4:34 AM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Basically a closed Waterpipe system with 6 filters in it, with the goal of filtering out bacteria. 

But the filters become dirty overtime and therefore hosts for the bacteria themselve. 

Which means they cause more harm then good. 

 

Aurene is a new tech filtration system, resistant to the bacteria. 

I don't think that analogy works since filtering means to catch impurities and magic is not inherently corrupt or evil its just magic that has become unstable due to the mingling of other magics which resulted in the inner torment of elder dragons in their heart. Aurene is more of balancer who realigns these magical threads into their regular domain.

[HotDelirium.7984]

Did that green Kralk dragon ever manifest anywhere?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

18 minutes ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

Did that green Kralk dragon ever manifest anywhere?

Nope. Like the "vine mordremoth" from the HoT release trailer, it was just a fakeout.

In a way.

That green dragon was likely a representation of the Dragonvoid and the jadetech going haywire from it, similarly to how the 'vine mordremoth' could have been a representation of "Mordremoth is the 'jungle'".

So we got a black Kralk dragon instead of a green Kralk dragon, basically.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

6 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

I don't think that analogy works since filtering means to catch impurities and magic is not inherently corrupt or evil its just magic that has become unstable due to the mingling of other magics which resulted in the inner torment of elder dragons in their heart. Aurene is more of balancer who realigns these magical threads into their regular domain.

As far as i understood it.

Void Magic is bascially the primodial soup that was there in the beginning.

To form life etc, Soo-Won needed to filter out some of it. The part thats harmfull to life.

She and her 5 kids are splitting the Void Magic into 6 (12) parts and filter out the "bad stuff".

 

[Amanda Whitemoon.6173]

On 3/11/2022 at 11:23 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

First, regarding the timeline. According to Season 2 and Heart of Thorns, Soo-Won's orb became active after Primordus' and before Jormag's. This places her "waking" at sometime between 1120 and 1165 AE. No issue there. However, the krait and quaggan only fled the depths 50 years prior to the game - circa 1270 AE. This is where our first kurfufle snag comes in.

There are reports stating that Soo-Won showed up in Cantha during the tidal wave hitting Cantha, with reports of a second, smaller tidal wave hitting the first one caused by Zhaitan. A small oddity, IMO, given how utterly devastating Zhaitan's tidal wave was - you'd think the Elder Dragon of Water who's been awake for 100-ish years would be capable of countering that tidal wave completely, or at least to a greater effect. The problem here, however, is that Zhaitan woke up 100 years before GW2 - in 1219 AE.

So did Soo-Won leave the ocean depths in 1219 AE, or 1270-ish AE?

but doesnt this mean that:

1120-1165     Soo-won wakes up

1219               Zhaitan awakes causes tidal wave, soowon goes to cantha

1270              Quaggan and krait leave the ocean because something dangerous

 

where is the problem, seems to me chtulhu emerged in the ocean between 1219 and 1270 and drove the quaggan away with maybe tenticle ghidora minions (hydra, tentacle, dragonlike)

[HotDelirium.7984]

2 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

As far as i understood it.

Void Magic is bascially the primodial soup that was there in the beginning.

To form life etc, Soo-Won needed to filter out some of it. The part thats harmfull to life.

She and her 5 kids are splitting the Void Magic into 6 (12) parts and filter out the "bad stuff".

 

I guess maybe there are some plot holes within that or maybe our misunderstandings about it with the small amount of void info we got. If the void is complete chaos why was Soo-Won ever separate from it in the first place? Why is she the exception? Did she come from the mists into this world that was a ball of chaos (like fifth element) and enact her plan? I guess she's lucky they can digest magical energy. She's also just going to say oh well boohoo they all are going insane so I'll be a terrible and absent parent and never tell any other creatures on Tyria about what's goin on ever? Even Wooden Potatoes does not love that mother is Soo-Won and I kind of agree.

[Bast.7253]

6 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

I guess maybe there are some plot holes within that or maybe our misunderstandings about it with the small amount of void info we got. If the void is complete chaos why was Soo-Won ever separate from it in the first place? Why is she the exception? Did she come from the mists into this world that was a ball of chaos (like fifth element) and enact her plan? I guess she's lucky they can digest magical energy. She's also just going to say oh well boohoo they all are going insane so I'll be a terrible and absent parent and never tell any other creatures on Tyria about what's goin on ever? Even Wooden Potatoes does not love that mother is Soo-Won and I kind of agree.

This whole bit had me confused. What does this plot even mean? That in the beginning of the planet Tyria it was just void and Soo Won? Did Soo Won create all life everywhere? Where did Soo Won come from?

Was the planet here and she just created life on the planet? 

This whole story beat getting like a few lines of dialogue in one story instance was one of the worst story telling decisions I've ever seen. In game, in movies, anywhere. I get they wanted to be done with the elder dragon plot but you can't just drop a bomb like that and then... give it a 10 minute story instance worth of build up and immediate conclusion. 

On Wooden Potatoes, I'd have to agree that it seems like they really don't WANT us talking about it, thinking about it, or doing anykind of deep lore dive. They pieced together breadcumbs they laid out, made them fit, and they want us to just accept the subpar story telling on this one fundamental aspect of the entire franchise and call it a day. 

It's good they can move on from this, but what's next? When you conclude a story this poorly, (just my opinion), then how can we stay invested knowing that at any moment the story we love and are fully involved in can just be hand waved in favor of mediocre character development like Joon - who is a genius like Taimi but stubborn and has little brat fits like Braham. The character they chose to focus on, to me, isn't even that interesting. Few of them are. 

I think the one thing I agreed with WP about most is that they did deliver the story well, technically. It's just that the story they told wasn't good and wound up being a disjointed mess. And they seemed to struggle, more than any other expansion, knowing when to separate the story from the gameplay. There are a lot of neat tie-ins to previous things in the game, from a mechanics perspective. The gameplay of the Soo Won meta incorporates a lot of past mechanics and things we'd seen, like the wave wall being similar to Mordremoth's coil. Fighting the lieutenants on the platform. We have the branded spear mechanic to push the phase with that wave wall. 

They put quite a bit of effort into tying in those mechanics from a gameplay perspective but the actual story with Soo Won was just shoved to the side. 

Why am I watching some emo Asura that just wants to watch the world burn when I could be reading about the very origin of the planet itself. Why am I waiting on a passport and doing jade tech events when I could be fighting void and seeing reality break down around me more and more as the story progresses through each map?

They've done so many interesting things in Season 4 with Kralk and the mists. Having those distorted portions of reality in specific areas in Jahai Bluffs. 

It's just rushed. I know they're way capable of way higher quality story telling and gameplay than this expansion brought. So I don't know if it's just a resource and time issue or if they're just not passionate about the elder dragon story anymore and wanted to do as little as possible relating to it. 

I could handle that if we got more interesting story throughout Cantha, given we have so much history there. But instead they decided to go with not only human factions, but some of the most boring human factions to date. Jade Brotherhood and Aetherblades. I know people like the Aetherblades and were happy to see Scarlet, but as a fan of Aetherblades are you even satisfied with the story handled them? 

Mai was a good character, at least at first. I think Ankka could have been a good character and her story was told well from a technical perspective. I'm sure she has her reasons for being so nihilistic but I don't think the story did a good job of explaining why. 

It was all very... 30 minute episode of Power Rangers to me. With fluff dialogue and voice acting thrown in everywhere to give the illusion of depth. And half the time the dialogue is going on the same time as some ambient npc. At one point there were like 4 different people talking while Rama was talking and honestly, the entirety of Rama's character could have been replaced with anyone from Dragon's Watch and the story wouldn't have suffered in the slightest. 

I mean even Minister Li is just Caudecus to me. They tried to create all these unique characters and spent so much time building their narrative but at the end of the day, most of them just feel like the same characters I've already seen before. 

You know who would have been more interesting to get to know? Tetra. Caithe and Canach meeting the wardens and having some unique instances involving them or, for that matter, a surprise Oni strike mission boss. Echovald in general this expansion really got shafted on story. 

I don't know. People can praise this story all they want but I feel like it was by far the weakest most disjointed mess I've seen to date. When you praise the story are you praising the actual subject matter or are you just praising the fact that they opted for cutscenes and unique ways of handling the camera? Is it the technical application of the story that you think was well done, or do you genuinely think the story was well handled for being the conclusion to a 10 year story arc?

I'm glad they've wiggled their way out of the elder dragon plot but I have serious doubts about their ability to tell an overarching story like this again. Maybe this story could have been better and suffered from the fact that they had to tie in the elder dragon plot, but we could have just focused on Cantha, dragon jade, and left Soo Won to her own living story season. I think they very clearly shoved it in because they wanted to be done with the elder dragons.