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Why use Vindicator in PvE?


Feduddle.5209

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So here's the thing:  I'm having fun playing Vindicator, but fun only takes you so far until you want to get into endgame content.

In group content, Vindicator does about as much damage as a good Herald.  While Herald offers unique buffs with the glint facet, increasing boon duration and giving lifesteal in addition to other boons for the party, Vindicator offers nothing but a few basic boons.  Additionally, why play support Vindicator when support Renegade is a thing, offering lifesteal, boons galore, protection, might, and alacrity, while support Vindicator offers a just few basic boons and raw heals?

The damage variant has barely passable damage and offers nothing in return.  The heal variant offers good raw heals and a few basic boons but nothing else.  Vindicator needs some unique desirable boon like alacrity or quickness, or much higher strike damage to make up for the fact that it offers nothing desirable to group content.

I get that it's good in PvP currently, but PvP and PvE balancing was split long ago, so there's no excuse for Vindicator to be this bad in PvE.

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I'm not sure how 37k big hitbox damage (with Assassin's Presence) "barely does more damage than a good Herald."  Herald is struggling to do more than it. It's not "this bad in PvE" it's just "good/balanced" and only needs about 1k to 1.5k more damage before it becomes "great" (which imo it deserves since the spec can't control its dodges as well). 

Also full support vindicator offers nearly everything that Renegade offers.  It already CAN do 5man Alacrity/25 Might/Protection/Vigor/Regen + Stability (if needed, Jalis) + high amounts of Fury/Swiftness (Pack Runes).  The spec has slightly less CC than Renegade due to not having Darkrazor, however, it offers a group breakstun, more consistent healing, boon extension for your whole party (which is actually huge as it smooths out boon uptime for your other support as well), and far better condition cleanse.

Edited by LucianTheAngelic.7054
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1 hour ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I'm not sure how 37k big hitbox damage (with Assassin's Presence) "barely does more damage than a good Herald."  Herald is struggling to do more than It's not "this bad in PvE" it's just "good/balanced" and only needs about 1k to 1.5k more damage before it becomes "great" (which imo it deserves since the spec can't control its dodges as well). 

Also full support vindicator offers nearly everything that Renegade offers.  It already CAN do 5man Alacrity/25 Might/Protection/Vigor/Regen + Stability (if needed, Jalis) + high amounts of Fury/Swiftness (Pack Runes).  The spec has slightly less CC than Renegade due to not having Darkrazor, however, it offers a group breakstun, more consistent healing, boon extension for your whole party (which is actually huge as it smooths out boon uptime for your other support as well), and far better condition cleanse.

Wouldn't happen to have a build link for the vindicator alac? I assume it uses Serene Rejuvenation but I never knew that trait existed and am curious. I want to make an alac rev but don't really like rene, so this would be nice.

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3 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

Wouldn't happen to have a build link for the vindicator alac? I assume it uses Serene Rejuvenation but I never knew that trait existed and am curious. I want to make an alac rev but don't really like rene, so this would be nice.

I don’t have a full build for it yet, but you just need 93.75% boon duration to get max alacrity from Natural Harmony/Serene Rejuvenation.  Middle/bottom/middle for Vindicator, bottom row for Salvation, then either Devastation for AP or Invo for Spirit Boon/Charged Mists.  Legend choice is Ventari/Alliance or Jalis depending on party composition/need for stability.  Probably want energy sigil and/or endurance food for more jumps.  Pack runes for high fury/swiftness uptime if needed or monk for more healing.  Staff/X.  Can swap to the bottom grandmaster if 25 might/Alac isn’t needed for an encounter (like river of souls).  
 

It should play better/easier than heal herald or heal Ren, especially when taking alliance stance, though the alacrity uptime will be a little more complicated than Ren due to the smaller radius of the pulses, but the boon extension does help with this a lot. 

Edited by LucianTheAngelic.7054
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Pretty sure the support build is the one I posted awhile ago:  

  I have my own comments on it, but I would probably stay with Renegade for greater ease of use. 

 

Now, there's two big advantages that Vindicator has over the other specs.  First is that it has the highest power DPS.  That alone makes it worth mentioning.  Second is that it has the highest power cleave.  The previous weakness with power builds are that sword skills down-scale with multiple enemies (auto attack excluded), as does Impossible Odds and Icerazor's Ire.  Vindicator, however, upscales with multiple enemies, and cleaves against 5 with the greatsword and its abilities.  This makes it much better in add-heavy environments.

There's two smaller advantages that don't show up much in Strikes/Fracs/Raids.  First is the ability to give self-quickness.  Second is that, with the Sigil of Stamina, you'll be nigh immortal while bunny-hopping from enemy to enemy.  

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12 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I'm not sure how 37k big hitbox damage (with Assassin's Presence) "barely does more damage than a good Herald."  Herald is struggling to do more than It's not "this bad in PvE" it's just "good/balanced" and only needs about 1k to 1.5k more damage before it becomes "great" (which imo it deserves since the spec can't control its dodges as well). 

Also full support vindicator offers nearly everything that Renegade offers.  It already CAN do 5man Alacrity/25 Might/Protection/Vigor/Regen + Stability (if needed, Jalis) + high amounts of Fury/Swiftness (Pack Runes).  The spec has slightly less CC than Renegade due to not having Darkrazor, however, it offers a group breakstun, more consistent healing, boon extension for your whole party (which is actually huge as it smooths out boon uptime for your other support as well), and far better condition cleanse.

The 37k build doesnt bring ap. its pure selfish dps. you lose 250power when you want to bring ap. 36k on small. all while having 0 decent access to cc. swapping to staff kills your dmg. dps version is kinda fine though. i still think the spec could have been so much better with a good legend instead of whatever alliance is supposed to be. and its just holo level on big while offering no cc while holo does a ton. holo isnt pve meta either btw.

The max dps version doesnt even use alliance, it uses jalis. i wanted a power dps legend with no upkeeps and got support focus (again, just like kalla and glint) with a collection of reaper shouts and 2 trash elites.

The alac is very clunky and short range. spaming all your energy on the heal skill for alac. 

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Vindicator is decent. It brings at least 37k dps to the golem with assassince presence, can give cc via staff, tons of vulvn and chill

 

on little hitboxes its most likely 35-35,5k dps, which is kinda underwhelming. CC on alliance is used for rotation, Staff kills dps. 

 

They could tweak the red elite a bit (more damage & cc) and everything would be good. Maybe even making the spear some sort of explosion, so it doesnt keep missing moving targets.

Edited by Virdo.1540
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I love vindi but i cannot understand thought process behind current version of Archemorus's Spear. As an elite, damage is kinda low, torment stacks seems odd and redundant. It could be great opportunity to add meaningful cc in Vindi's kit by including some form of hard cc like Stun/Knock-down/Knock-back or maybe at least daze.

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3 hours ago, Virdo.1540 said:

Vindicator is decent. It brings at least 37k dps to the golem with assassince presence, can give cc via staff, tons of vulvn and chill

 

on little hitboxes its most likely 35-35,5k dps, which is kinda underwhelming. CC on alliance is used for rotation, Staff kills dps. 

 

They could tweak the red elite a bit (more damage & cc) and everything would be good. Maybe even making the spear some sort of explosion, so it doesnt keep missing moving targets.

 

 

lmao, 37k DPS is only with good GS5 RNG btw. And large hit box only.

Edited by Zenith.7301
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10 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

The 37k build doesnt bring ap. its pure selfish dps. you lose 250power when you want to bring ap. 36k on small. all while having 0 decent access to cc. swapping to staff kills your dmg. dps version is kinda fine though. i still think the spec could have been so much better with a good legend instead of whatever alliance is supposed to be. and its just holo level on big while offering no cc while holo does a ton. holo isnt pve meta either btw.

The max dps version doesnt even use alliance, it uses jalis. i wanted a power dps legend with no upkeeps and got support focus (again, just like kalla and glint) with a collection of reaper shouts and 2 trash elites.

The alac is very clunky and short range. spaming all your energy on the heal skill for alac. 

Sorry, I rounded up by 100 which is negligible.  36.9k for the AP bench

 

i also cannot find a Jalis/Shiro version that is higher than the Alliance variant. 
(with Notoriety here):

 


yes the spec still has some issues that can be hammered out and personally I also agree alliance should do a tiny bit more damage.  However not everything needs to be meta.  Power holo as you mention is still a solid choice and it not being meta doesn’t stop it from being run by both pugs or my guildmates.  I’d rather it not be meta, but instead be borderline, simply because I don’t want to see it nerfed to hell over the next few years 

Edited by LucianTheAngelic.7054
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2 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Sorry, I rounded up by 100.  36.9k for the AP bench

 

i also cannot find a Jalis/Shiro version that is higher than the Alliance variant. 
(with Notoriety here):

 


yes the spec still has some issues that can be hammered out and personally I also agree alliance should do a tiny bit more damage.  However not everything needs to be meta.  Power holo as you mention is still a solid choice and it not being meta doesn’t stop it from being run by both pugs or my guildmates.  I’d rather it not be meta, but instead be borderline, simply because I don’t want to see it nerfed to hell over the next few years 

 

 

Why are you even using a huge hitbox benchmark when huge hitbox isn't a thing in most raids?

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4 minutes ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

Why are you even using a huge hitbox benchmark when huge hitbox isn't a thing in most raids?

You’re welcome to take that up with snowcrows (obviously this isn’t my benchmark), but they use it to reduce RNG and get a “maximum” bench.  This is standard for any benchmarks with variable large AoEs.  However, Vindicator only has one variable/large AoE attack (Eternity’s Requiem) so the damage loss on small is only about 1-1.5k.  Burst is still high. 

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23 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I'm not sure how 37k big hitbox damage (with Assassin's Presence) "barely does more damage than a good Herald."  Herald is struggling to do more than It's not "this bad in PvE" it's just "good/balanced" and only needs about 1k to 1.5k more damage before it becomes "great" (which imo it deserves since the spec can't control its dodges as well).

Renegade has been able to do 37k power DPS for a long time. 

 

 

And yet, no one really ever saw power Renegade as worthwhile.  Viable if you *really* wanted to power DPS on a revenant?  Sure, but you were still better off with condi Ren or just sticking to alacrigade.

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2 hours ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

Renegade has been able to do 37k power DPS for a long time. 

 

 

And yet, no one really ever saw power Renegade as worthwhile.  Viable if you *really* wanted to power DPS on a revenant?  Sure, but you were still better off with condi Ren or just sticking to alacrigade.

Power Renegade hasn't been able to hit those numbers since the June 8th 2021 patch.  https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2021-06-08#Revenant  This was less than a month after the video you've posted here, so in reality "renegade has been able to do 37k power dps for a long time" actually isn't accurate at all.   It was only able to hit 37k for a month, so of course it didn't catch on in any significant way.  Also it's worth noting that in the video you linked the Ren is using a Writ for utility instead of the usual sharpening stones, which does further inflate the dps.  Lastly, Power Ren just got further gutted with the Battle Scars nerfs so its even further from that bench now than it was. 

But yes, pRen did have some of the same issues Vindicator has now.  If you look at my posts I'm not saying "37k Huge Hitbox Vindi is perfect."  I've said in many of my posts throughout the past few days that yes, it does need a bit more damage, specifically small target damage.  Alliance stance elite spear should receive a PvE damage buff bare minimum and there should be more damage trickled into Vindicator as well (lots of areas this could be improved, whether it be more GS 2/3 dps or an extra small modifier or something somewhere else in the traitline).  My main point is it's not "trash" "bad" etc. like a lot of people are saying and it really only needs a few small buffs to be in a really good place. 

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29 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Power Renegade hasn't been able to hit those numbers since the June 8th 2021 patch.  https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2021-06-08#Revenant  This was less than a month after the video you've posted here, so in reality "renegade has been able to do 37k power dps for a long time" actually isn't accurate at all.   It was only able to hit 37k for a month, so of course it didn't catch on in any significant way.  Also it's worth noting that in the video you linked the Ren is using a Writ for utility instead of the usual sharpening stones, which does further inflate the dps.  Lastly, Power Ren just got further gutted with the Battle Scars nerfs so its even further from that bench now than it was. 

But yes, pRen did have some of the same issues Vindicator has now.  If you look at my posts I'm not saying "37k Huge Hitbox Vindi is perfect."  I've said in many of my posts throughout the past few days that yes, it does need a bit more damage, specifically small target damage.  Alliance stance elite spear should receive a PvE damage buff bare minimum and there should be more damage trickled into Vindicator as well (lots of areas this could be improved, whether it be more GS 2/3 dps or an extra small modifier or something somewhere else in the traitline).  My main point is it's not "trash" "bad" etc. like a lot of people are saying and it really only needs a few small buffs to be in a really good place. 

You're nit-picking over a writ over sharpening stone and missing the actual point:

Even when Ren was hitting 37k, no one cared.  No one ran it.  A power DPS build on a Revenant that his 37k is so mediocre that it's hardly worth noting and far from meta.

 

Ultimately, Vindicator is just irrelevant from a DPS perspective in the meta for anyone but the person just *reeeeeaaally* wants to play it over the many other better options for some reason just because it's technically viable enough to work. 

 

Sure, it's not bad and I would never speak against anyone from playing it.  It's just not good enough to be worth mentioning in the face of other better options, which is pretty disappointing for a brand new elite spec.

Edited by Dahkeus.8243
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10 hours ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

You're nit-picking over a writ over sharpening stone and missing the actual point:

Even when Ren was hitting 37k, no one cared.  No one ran it.  A power DPS build on a Revenant that his 37k is so mediocre that it's hardly worth noting and far from meta.

You say I'm missing the point yet you completely ignored mine.  It was 37k for a month.  Ofc no one is going to pick it up quickly in a month, especially since it wasn't gamebreaking like something like Staff Alac Mirage after that update.  If it had stayed at 37k it probably would be being played more frequently. 

Writs are worth mentioning as they do increase and inflate benchmarks slightly.  The Vindicator benchmarks posted here do not run Writs.  They would be higher than 37.3 if running writs

And you're going to have be far more specific than the hyperbolic "no one."  I ran Power Ren during the past year.  I've seen other people do the same.  This was after it was nerfed from 37 down to 35.5.  Plenty of people still run Power Reaper despite it being worse than Power Ren over the past year 

If you are a hardcore meta-slave speedrunner, then I get it, you're probably not going to play Vindicator.  However, it IS the best Power Rev option we've had access to in the entirety of Rev's existence.  Even better than the Power Ren you listed.  Is it perfect?  Again, no.  Which is why I have advocated for *slightly* more damage.  Does the spec need to be meta?  I'd prefer it to be borderline at best as I don't want it to be nerfed to oblivion randomly by Anet like many specs have been previously. 
 

Edited by LucianTheAngelic.7054
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On 3/4/2022 at 2:33 PM, Thanatos.2691 said:

So here's the thing:  I'm having fun playing Vindicator, but fun only takes you so far until you want to get into endgame content.

In group content, Vindicator does about as much damage as a good Herald.  While Herald offers unique buffs with the glint facet, increasing boon duration and giving lifesteal in addition to other boons for the party, Vindicator offers nothing but a few basic boons.  Additionally, why play support Vindicator when support Renegade is a thing, offering lifesteal, boons galore, protection, might, and alacrity, while support Vindicator offers a just few basic boons and raw heals?

The damage variant has barely passable damage and offers nothing in return.  The heal variant offers good raw heals and a few basic boons but nothing else.  Vindicator needs some unique desirable boon like alacrity or quickness, or much higher strike damage to make up for the fact that it offers nothing desirable to group content.

I get that it's good in PvP currently, but PvP and PvE balancing was split long ago, so there's no excuse for Vindicator to be this bad in PvE.

Playing around with that Saintgaroo build. Its pretty impactful on the PvE side of things. Cant wait to try it out in WvW.

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I've been testing Vindi quickness. It's already perma quickness+25 might+fury even with legendswap if you have nearly full diviner gear(I don't have full diviner trinkets neither BD sigil) and the dodge increasing BD trait.

So we may actually be quickness providers in raids. Tho I didn't test the dps on that build.

Maybe you can even have less BD and more serker gear if you get permavigor(dodge increases your boons+allies).

Edited by Howluffu.7259
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5 hours ago, Howluffu.7259 said:

I've been testing Vindi quickness. It's already perma quickness+25 might+fury even with legendswap if you have nearly full diviner gear(I don't have full diviner trinkets neither BD sigil) and the dodge increasing BD trait.

So we may actually be quickness providers in raids. Tho I didn't test the dps on that build.

Maybe you can even have less BD and more serker gear if you get permavigor(dodge increases your boons+allies).

You dont provide quickness. The quickness skill is selfish. no boons for allies.

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7 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

You dont provide quickness. The quickness skill is selfish. no boons for allies.

I just test it with a friend and I was stupified when I saw him with no quickness at all. I already made a thread to adress it.

Frankly, I can't believe they did left things like this go live ingame(then again Phantom's Onslaught still less than 600 range even tho it says 900).

Edited by Howluffu.7259
Typo
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