Ruining your expac

[Astralporing.1957]

7 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I fully expect it to get nerfed.  I'm just patient. The TD meta being hard didn't ruin Heart of Thorns.  It was something hard core players could do and then everyone could do it.

You are patient, but not everyone is. Just like it was in the case of HoT, where a seemingly significant number of players just stopped playing due to difficulty hike. And even though some of them returned later on, not everyone did.

Not everyone is willing to wait for months (or potentially years) till Anet gets off their behind and fixes something they should have known better than to introduce in the first place. Especially since the way they are addressing the case currently shows to players their attitude, and show how much they either misread what certain groups of players want, or just do not care about it at all.

EoD is a very important expansion. Unlike PoF, it was introduced to show to the playerbase that Anet still cares about making a good game, and still cares about their community. As such, this kind of bad messaging is very important.

Additionally, the hardcore vs casual split was already bad, and was somewhat bearable for the majority of the playerbase primarily because the content for those two groups was clearly deliminated. Even though Anet clearly wanted to push everyone into high difficulty content, it was still kind of content that existed outside OW/story. Now, turtle requirements, this event, and (what's more important) Anet's explanations behind why they do not want to fix it yet, show that they want to break that separation and forcefeed high-end content to everyone whether they want it or not. And i highly doubt that's going to go well.

And the problem with "fixing it later" is that it's very easy to make a bad impression, but very hard to improve it later on.

[Dezzie.5903]

9 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Anet is trying to "encourage" people to do harder content and this is a bad way to do it. There'll be a big casual outcry, but it'll get fixed, because that's eventually what happens.

It's not really fair for Anet to put something in a game that's listed as a feature, and then placing it behind a skill wall that most casuals can't attain, but I just don't believe it's a permanent situation.

On this we can agree.

I've seen many games try to "encourage" players to try different modes than they prefer to play by putting coveted rewards within the targeted mode and it blows up the developers' faces every single time. And yet developers keep doing it...

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You are patient, but not everyone is. Just like it was in the case of HoT, where a seemingly significant number of players just stopped playing due to difficulty hike. And even though some of them returned later on, not everyone did.

Not everyone is willing to wait for months (or potentially years) till Anet gets off their behind and fixes something they should have known better than to introduce in the first place. Especially since the way they are addressing the case currently shows to players their attitude, and show how much they either misread what certain groups of players want, or just do not care about it at all.

EoD is a very important expansion. Unlike PoF, it was introduced to show to the playerbase that Anet still cares about making a good game, and still cares about their community. As such, this kind of bad messaging is very important.

Additionally, the hardcore vs casual split was already bad, and was somewhat bearable for the majority of the playerbase primarily because the content for those two groups was clearly deliminated. Even though Anet clearly wanted to push everyone into high difficulty content, it was still kind of content that existed outside OW/story. Now, turtle requirements, this event, and (what's more important) Anet's explanations behind why they do not want to fix it yet, show that they want to break that separation and forcefeed high-end content to everyone whether they want it or not. And i highly doubt that's going to go well.

And the problem with "fixing it later" is that it's very easy to make a bad impression, but very hard to improve it later on.

MMOs have always been a marathon not a sprint.  Programming doesn't take days, it takes weeks, months.  Anet obviously feels that hard core element is something they want to appeal to.

 

Yes I get that no one can live without a turtle and not having one right now is game-breaking, but in reality I've lived without a turtle this long. I like the story. I like the zones. I like the masteries.  I'm even (sadly) enjoying fishing.  So if I don't get the turtle, what am I locked out of?  What can't I do?

It's not like a raptor. There's no where I can't go on the mounts I have now. This is strictly a matter of patience during the release week of a new expansion. I'll accept end of the world posts in a couple of months, but I suspect Anet won't let it go on for that long. I think the strike mission is going to be more problematical for casuals than the meta anyway.

[Fuchslein.8639]

7 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

First of all, my comments aren't defending Anet.  I'm simply saying it'll be fixed at some point the way that always happens. I'm also saying I'm not sure it wasn't done on purpose, thus it wasn't a mistake.

I don't believe the situation as it stands is tenable. I don't believe they can leave it like this, and I don't believe they will. I believe it will get fixed.  That's not precisely defending Anet.

More to the point, I don't think that Anet doesn't care because I or anyone else defends them. Anet isn't looking what what I post on the forums, they're looking at stats of what people are playing in game.  Obviously Anet wants to get people into harder content, and they keep trying.  It's never really worked and it's probably not going to work for most people now but a few might go to the dark side.

 

I'm saying if people aren't beating the meta and they stop playing it, Anet will nerf the meta, or they will move the turtle egg requirement away from it, or offer another way to get the turtle eggs.  It will be fixed. Anyone who knows me, knows I'm not a fan of hard core content, or particularly hard content, nor am I a fan of important rewards being locked behind such content.

However, I'm also not a fan of the doom and gloom I often get from these forums or reddit.  OMG it's the end of the world I don't like something. There's a balance between constructive criticism and doomsaying.  Saying I don't like something is different than saying the game will fail because of it. If you want to take that as defending Anet that's fine.

Anet will change this because Anet has to change this.  Anet SHOULD change this.  I wonder what the people who finally get the egg are going to say when they find out they also have to do a strike mission to get the turtle.  Because that'll be the next hurdle.

Anet should encourage people to do different content. Anet should not lock a major advertised reward behind content they know the majority of the playerbase won't touch.

I wasn't talking about you. Also i know my text was exaggerated. 
That was just what I had felt sometimes, before EOD. There was always this group of people here on the forum who defended everything. For example, it's funny how suddenly everyone is upset about the no longer existing skip function, where before EOD, people like me were taken apart like how we can denounce Anet's precious work with an evil skip button.

These were my thoughts when I read Jaque's post. Of course, you may be right and in the end, Anet is not interested in what we write here anyway. Probably that would be even really the better solution if you look at the forum as a whole.

And the rest, as I said, I find this whole exaggeration that this is the end of GW2 also very far pulled.

Some threads since EOD are very overdone. Even if I think it's perfectly legitimate and important that people can also share their displeasure. But they should also remain a little realistic. And in the end it's just a game. If someone were really pissed off, there are a thousand other games out there.

I also think that anet will nerv the event even further, EOD as a whole will probably still experience a few nerv's. And honestly, I understand Anet's approach to trying something out and making something a little harder rather than too easy.(At POF also many people have left GW2, just it is not talked much about it because here in the forum, people like to hammer on the "hardcore" crowd. So as you say, anet has it statistics and all and hopefully know's what it does.)

Whereas Anet has probably thought a little too high with this one event ...

[Astralporing.1957]

53 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Anet obviously feels that hard core element is something they want to appeal to.

Yes, precisely. That's the message they keep sending for now. And that's the message that the casual players will hear (because it is aimed not at hardcores, but at OW players). So, the longer they will keep sending this message to the part of the community that doesn't want to hear it, the more players from that part of the community will listen to it and decide it's no longer a game for them. And that's exactly why time is of an essence, and why being patient and waiting for months is not a good idea.

[Sobx.1758]

16 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, precisely. That's the message they keep sending for now. And that's the message that the casual players will hear (because it is aimed not at hardcores, but at OW players). So, the longer they will keep sending this message to the part of the community that doesn't want to hear it, the more players from that part of the community will listen to it and decide it's no longer a game for them. And that's exactly why time is of an essence, and why being patient and waiting for months is not a good idea.

I fail to see how one hard meta (even if possibly a bit too hard for now, not even going into that here) somehow kills the expansion for the casual players (~"game no longer for them"), but somehow I keep seeing those sensationalized posts about "hard meta event killing the game". Plenty of stuff to do, farm, improve at and finally succeed. It's weird to me that someone tries to make a claim about "making hard part of the game easier, since the time is of essence here!" ESPECIALLY in the long-term focused game like an mmorpg. The time is not of essence, we have a lot of it. The expansion isn't going away in a week or a month. Especially the proclaimed casual players shouldn't have a need to rush everything in the first week, so I don't really understand that take.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[The Greyhawk.9107]

2 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I fail to see how one hard meta (even if possibly a bit too hard for now, not even going into that here) somehow kills the expansion for the casual players (~"game no longer for them"), but somehow I keep seeing those sensationalized posts about "hard meta event killing the game". Plenty of stuff to do, farm, improve at and finally succeed.

Because Anet locked the turtle mounts behind it, which they advertised as a major feature of the game.  By preventing paying customers from getting this touted feature with a broken meta event they're at least skirting on false advertisement.   And some people are already demanding and getting refunds.

[Sobx.1758]

4 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Because Anet locked the turtle mounts behind it, which they advertised as a major feature of the game.  By preventing paying customers from getting this touted feature with a broken meta event they're at least skirting on false advertisement.   And some people are already demanding and getting refunds.

I get that the turtle sits behind it. But that's also included in what I wrote above about having the time and not needing to rush, especially for casual players. Added feature to the game isn't somehow required to be easly/readily/automatically unlocked as you go.

I don't see how anything here is a false advertisement (or even "skirting" on it).

Edited March 6, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Tails.9372]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Anet obviously feels that hard core element is something they want to appeal to.

And according to their own words that's exactly what strikes are there for, at least for this expansion. Now I'm not against them making an expansion where they go full "50 man raid" on the meta events and put all the difficulty in the OW maps but in this case: A: their intentions should be communicated beforehand and B: the focus of the replayable instanced group content then should be to appeal to the average casual player to compensate for it.

A lot of people have been saying that there are no reasons for OW content to always be easy but while I generally agree with this I can't help but wonder how many of them are actually principled when it comes to applying the same logic in other places. If A-Net were to make the next raid wing as easy as shiverpeaks pass or your average personal story instance would they be willing to accept that just like how they expect the average OW player to accept the difficulty level of "the ultimate open world finale to the 10-year Elder Dragon story arc." or would they also take issue with it because I somehow would expect to see the later rather than the former.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Tails.9372

[The Greyhawk.9107]

3 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I get that the turtle sits behind it. But that's also included in what I wrote above about having the time and not needing to rush, especially for casual players. Added feature to the game isn't somehow required to be easly/readily/automatically unlocked as you go.

You're acting as if this event is merely difficult and not entirely broken.  A squad can do everything as perfectly as possible as still lose after two plus hours of work just because of the boss's RNG.  Would you say the same thing if Gliding was locked behind such a boss back when HoT came out?

 

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

You're acting as if this event is merely difficult and not entirely broken.  A squad can do everything as perfectly as possible as still lose after two plus hours of work just because of the boss's RNG.  Would you say the same thing if Gliding was locked behind such a boss back when HoT came out?

Not exactly, I'd say I'm rather acting like there's no need to panic because of one meta or turtle and it doesn't somehow scrap the whole expansion, doesn't really lock people out of the content and most probably it will be adjusted in time if actually needed. Gliding doesn't have much to do with turtle here, since it was absolutely needed to progress even through the story and probably some of the maps, but I don't really remember anymore. One way or another, not a great comparison and part of why I wrote what I wrote 2 posts above. The turtle is NOT something that makes or breaks expansion's content. It has been less than 5 days, let them get the data, write and push the patches. Some people want to pretend this is absolutely gamebreaking and a huge dealbreaker for casual players (which apparently aren't all that casual and suddenly need to rush expansion content in 5 days now?). I don't think that's the case, hence I write what I write.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Nekromalistik.7045]

Just focus tail and cc, literally with a meme squad we managed to do it with 2:30 minutes to spare

[Jilora.9524]

On 3/5/2022 at 12:36 AM, Vayne.8563 said:

Oh look another end of the world the sky is falling everyone is going to leave because of this meta post.  People complained about Tequatl, people complained about Tangled Depths, people complained about Orr and yet, somehow, amazingly, the game is still here.

It'll either get done or get nerfed and people will have to have some patience. That's it.  No one talks today about how hard Tequatl was at launch, or how impossible the TD meta was at launch and soon no one will be talking about this.

These do this or else posts are not what is going to make the game change. Data will. Anet has that data. We don't.

From the guy who made end of the world saying you'd quit because strike mission achieves for bjora were included in the meta I find this comment funny af. That is all

[ugrakarma.9416]

my bet the guys whos says here this meta is ok, are the sames guys whos says the DRM's are good lmao. 

Edited March 6, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[Fuchslein.8639]

42 minutes ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

my bet the guys whos says here this meta is ok, are the sames guys whos says the DRM's are good lmao. 

I see nobody saying this meta is ok as it is. Nope, looked again, never said anyone the meta is fine, just a lot of post that are sick of "this is the end of gw2"-threads because they can't wait a bit for anet to adjust things.

 

Edit: Okay, one did a post about it, but this was the guy who was thinking, showing a picture of a full organized map with 100 of sub-groups where a good idea ...

Edited March 6, 2022 by Fuchslein.8639

[Vayne.8563]

8 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, precisely. That's the message they keep sending for now. And that's the message that the casual players will hear (because it is aimed not at hardcores, but at OW players). So, the longer they will keep sending this message to the part of the community that doesn't want to hear it, the more players from that part of the community will listen to it and decide it's no longer a game for them. And that's exactly why time is of an essence, and why being patient and waiting for months is not a good idea.

Regardless of that, HoT remains the content that's done the most often in this game by the most people.  And HoT sent the same message.  Anet has always swung like a pendulum, going too far one way and too far the other. PoF was the anti-hot and after a month a lot of people were done there. 

The loudest portion of the casual community is like the loudest portion of the hardcore community. Anet tends to over-adjust and then come back. They did the same in Guild Wars 1. The company hasn't really changed, just the audience.  Anet needs to learn to ignore the 5% on both the top and the bottom of the spectrum, but they haven't yet.

[Vayne.8563]

7 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

And according to their own words that's exactly what strikes are there for, at least for this expansion. Now I'm not against them making an expansion where they go full "50 man raid" on the meta events and put all the difficulty in the OW maps but in this case: A: their intentions should be communicated beforehand and B: the focus of the replayable instanced group content then should be to appeal to the average casual player to compensate for it.

A lot of people have been saying that there are no reasons for OW content to always be easy but while I generally agree with this I can't help but wonder how many of them are actually principled when it comes to applying the same logic in other places. If A-Net were to make the next raid wing as easy as shiverpeaks pass or your average personal story instance would they be willing to accept that just like how they expect the average OW player to accept the difficulty level of "the ultimate open world finale to the 10-year Elder Dragon story arc." or would they also take issue with it because I somehow would expect to see the later rather than the former.

The problem is, this isn't the griffon, where Anet didn't tell us about it before hand. So the Griffon could be something less casual. The turtle was a selling point that would appeal to casuals. It's a kitten around mount. You get on it with your mate and have fun. And it was advertised as one of the three main "features" of the expansion.  But Anet had to know going in how many people run strikes or do hard content by percentage.

They're taking a feature people paid for, advertised, didn't communicate to those people who bought it that it would require them to completely change how they play and what they play to get it, and they dropped the game.  Casual players have a right to be annoyed.  I have no problem doing a strike or the last meta, and I'm not worried that I can, but some people are absolutely  not going to do that strike missions. Some of those people will refund the game. Some will stop playing whether they refund it or not, because they can't get something they feel they paid for. Fair or not, people by because of feeling more than logic most of the time.  People look at a game and say that turtle looks cool.

 

We've had since the launch of PoF 8 different mounts and none of them are as difficult to get as this one.  I didn't pay for the Skyscale story chapter, I got it for free by loggging in along with everyone who was playing back then. We had months were we got that chapter for free, and as a result, before anyone embarked on the journey a decision could be made through research whether or not we wanted to buy the expansion. 
 

I bought multiple copies of this expansion for different alt accounts as did my wife, and I think maybe we'll just get the turtle on a couple of them.  That devalues the expansion for me on every other account.  I regret my decision to buy those extra copies, because I don't feel like I'm getting enough out of them now. My decision and I'll own up to it, but I"ll be spending less on the game for a while because I feel put out by this.  But that doesn't excuse the hyperbole we see, and hyperbole is one of my biggest pet peeves.

 

So I keep my tone as even as I can, I express what I'm feeling while trying not to exaagerate it and I'll wait and see.  

[Vayne.8563]

6 hours ago, Jilora.9524 said:

From the guy who made end of the world saying you'd quit because strike mission achieves for bjora were included in the meta I find this comment funny af. That is all

They changed it, and I didn't say the game would die. I said I would quit. And I would have. If you cant' see the difference between I'm uphappy with this and this doesn't work and I'll leave the game, and the game is doomed, I'm not sure what to tell you.

One of the reasons that I'm sure something will happen is because after that meta in Bjora Anet never did it again.  No strike mission was required after that to finish a zone meta. I didn't quit because I was satisfied.

[Jilora.9524]

54 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

They changed it, and I didn't say the game would die. I said I would quit. And I would have. If you cant' see the difference between I'm uphappy with this and this doesn't work and I'll leave the game, and the game is doomed, I'm not sure what to tell you.

One of the reasons that I'm sure something will happen is because after that meta in Bjora Anet never did it again.  No strike mission was required after that to finish a zone meta. I didn't quit because I was satisfied.

You said you would quit. Guild members would quit and many would leave w/o that change so ya doom and gloom. All over some minor thing that a small portion completes and only awards achieve points. 

Yet here you are arguing the opposite on something that locks the turtle mount behind. Many are stuck(not me) and then they get bagged again with a difficult strike mission to progress.

So yeah these players have more legit doom and gloom then just I can't get achieve points.

[Minjin.8259]

16 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

However, I'm also not a fan of the doom and gloom I often get from these forums or reddit.  OMG it's the end of the world I don't like something. There's a balance between constructive criticism and doomsaying.  Saying I don't like something is different than saying the game will fail because of it. If you want to take that as defending Anet that's fine.

 

I want to point out something with people acting like it's the end of the world.  If you have even glanced at the news lately, then it honestly does seem like the world is ending in many ways in the real world.  We have a war going on, inflation is spiraling out of control, and an endless stream of other hideous real life issues right now effecting everyone.  Most of us bought the expansion before gas was hitting $5 a gallon in some parts of the country.  One thing that really resonated with me was how some of the storyline in this echoed what is going on in the world right now this minute.  Some of that was probably intentional and some was coincidental.  Regardless two things come into play here...people want to feel that money they spent was well spent.  And the second thing is this meta is just one more thing that is truly beyond our control due to the RNG.  Too many factors right now in the real world are beyond our control to have this heaped on top like a rotten little cherry.  So I think many people, myself included, are reacting worse to this than they should because of what is going on in every other aspect of our lives.  I feel sad, frustrated and flat out weary having to do this meta when I can't control what the boss chooses to do.  The boss represents our world leaders right now whether people realize is consciously or subconsciously.  I am sure it will get fixed, but the timing of this thing and the way it's released was bad due to real world events and how people feel in general.  Carrying that feeling of no control and desolation to a game is a bad move.

[Vayne.8563]

1 minute ago, Jilora.9524 said:

You said you would quit. Guild members would quit and many would leave w/o that change so ya doom and gloom. All over some minor thing that a small portion completes and only awards achieve points. 

Yet here you are arguing the opposite on something that locks the turtle mount behind. Many are stuck(not me) and then they get bagged again with a difficult strike mission to progress.

So yeah these players have more legit doom and gloom then just I can't get achieve points.

But what I said was true. I said if it continues, if this is what the game is to become, I would quit. And I would. Because those stories and those metas are part of my bread and butter and to this day, even though I've done all the old ones, I still don't like strikes. Why would I continue to play a game that forces me into content I don't want to play?  If you like that content it's not a problem.

But every month, if that had continued (and it didn't), I'd no longer be looking forward to completing the zone meta. It would become a chore when it had never become a chore before. 

I said I would leave and I would have. You don't have to believe it. I know certain other guildies would have stopped playing too.  So I said that.  I didn't exaagerate it and say the game was over, but I did believe the game would lose some players over it.

[Vayne.8563]

7 minutes ago, Minjin.8259 said:

I want to point out something with people acting like it's the end of the world.  If you have even glanced at the news lately, then it honestly does seem like the world is ending in many ways in the real world.  We have a war going on, inflation is spiraling out of control, and an endless stream of other hideous real life issues right now effecting everyone.  Most of us bought the expansion before gas was hitting $5 a gallon in some parts of the country.  One thing that really resonated with me was how some of the storyline in this echoed what is going on in the world right now this minute.  Some of that was probably intentional and some was coincidental.  Regardless two things come into play here...people want to feel that money they spent was well spent.  And the second thing is this meta is just one more thing that is truly beyond our control due to the RNG.  Too many factors right now in the real world are beyond our control to have this heaped on top like a rotten little cherry.  So I think many people, myself included, are reacting worse to this than they should because of what is going on in every other aspect of our lives.  I feel sad, frustrated and flat out weary having to do this meta when I can't control what the boss chooses to do.  The boss represents our world leaders right now whether people realize is consciously or subconsciously.  I am sure it will get fixed, but the timing of this thing and the way it's released was bad due to real world events and how people feel in general.  Carrying that feeling of no control and desolation to a game is a bad move.

I get this completely.  And I don't know how old you are, but it's been like this for a long long time.  Sure we have a War now, but I was alive during the cold war, and we had nuclear bomb raid drills in school.  And it felt like the world was ending. Some people felt like the world was ending when specific politicians were elected.  We've had fear of wars, and in my neighborhood gang violence, racial violence, crime...back in the 60s and 70s.  This isn't new to much of the world.  

 

In fact much of the world lives in poverty, and doesn't know where their next meal is coming from.

 

I agree it's a bad move, I just don't think it won't change, that's all.  Anet will see no one going for the turtle and they'll change it. But yes, it'll take time.  For the record, I react to major stuff going in in the world with a more measured response than some of my friends, because I've seen it all before...and the world didn't end.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Vayne.8563

[Cyninja.2954]

Players on the forums:

Anet, we want scaling difficulty and better tutorials so that regular players have a chance to improve at the game and tackle challenging content without having to listen to toxic elitist raiders. Why was there never training raids?

 

Unfortunately for scaling content to work, players need to understand the very fundamentals of the game, and so:

The developers add an entire zone and elements in the story just to explain the basics to even the last player who hasn't read up on those.

 

Players on the forums:

We also want 50 man raids so we are not restricted to only 10 players or get gated by others!

 

The developers implement a more difficult meta which encourages players to slightly improve building up on what players should have learned in the earlier maps and story.

 

Suddenly everyone: Wah, why are you adding mechanics to open world and story?! Wah, why is this meta so hard?! Keep difficult content to raids and instances only.

 

It's a no win situation with this community.

 

EDIT:

Remove/Fix the random nature of the breakbar phase. This can make a run significantly harder, or easier depending on how many breakbar phases appear (more is better obviously). Keep the rest as is, the recent fixes already improved the chance at success.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Jilora.9524]

5 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

But what I said was true. I said if it continues, if this is what the game is to become, I would quit. And I would. Because those stories and those metas are part of my bread and butter and to this day, even though I've done all the old ones, I still don't like strikes. Why would I continue to play a game that forces me into content I don't want to play?  If you like that content it's not a problem.

But every month, if that had continued (and it didn't), I'd no longer be looking forward to completing the zone meta. It would become a chore when it had never become a chore before. 

I said I would leave and I would have. You don't have to believe it. I know certain other guildies would have stopped playing too.  So I said that.  I didn't exaagerate it and say the game was over, but I did believe the game would lose some players over it.

I believe you. I'm saying your beef was weaker then this one. Players have refunded and quit over this or at least say they have. This is way worse to the players that are more casual having to fail and lose 2h everytime and hope to get lucky or carried or a lil of both. The zone meta achieve vs the main mount in an expansion isn't even a comparison

[Gibson.4036]

People keep posting like the community is lurching wildly back and forth between what they are asking for, ignoring the fact that the community is not some monolithic, homogenous group.

Its disingenuous to say the community keeps asking for things and then the community then complains when they are given what they ask for. 
 

The truth is that there are different groups asking for different things. ANet is the one who has, since the very early days, been swinging back and forth with their design strategies between these groups’ desires. When one is being designed for, another complains, and back and forth it goes.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Gibson.4036