Which new Elite has best sustain?

[Eliam.3716]

Which of the new elite specs has the best sustain and can somewhat face tank?  I know there was a nerf to sustain at EOD launch but given that fact of them still tanky?

[Infusion.7149]

Probably mechanist or specter followed by untamed (with restorative strikes).
Virtuoso , harbinger, and willbender are not designed to be tanky and more glass cannon. Bladesworn and vindicator aren't glass cannon but don't have support primarily in mind and catalyst with defensive traitlines (water/earth) or arcane should be okay as well.

[Dadnir.5038]

Objectively, it depend how much you're willing to invest into sustain.

For example, harbinger might be seen as a glass canon but, at the same time, a harbinger can easily keep up regen/prot on himself as well as weakness on it's foes, all while getting some juicy life siphon from signet of vampirism, vampiric and vampiric presence. In PvE, at full blight, a plaguedoctor harbinger can have 22k health, 227 hp/s from regen, around 350 hp/s from alchemic vigor, an average of 172 hp/s from vampiric presence, 212 hp/s from signet of vampirism, high amount of health from vampiric since high hit rate is harbinger thing (we are already beyond 1000 hp/s with 100% prot and weakness uptime). All this can be further boosted by the use of signet of the locust, dagger#2, soul grasp/locust swarm or even blood bank/transfusion. And if you're still affraid of not being able to out-sustain you can even go with food that heal over time or/and runeset like rune of the dolyack. All in all, 2k+ hp/s along with damage reduction is probably achievable with this much investment as a harbinger so face tanking shouldn't be that much of an issue.

And you can do the same kind of "investment" with most e-specs (It might be difficult to find a "facetanking build" as a virtuoso).

[Fueki.4753]

My Viper (except for the gun, which is Ritualist) Harmbinger has got about 26k HP and decent healing from Parasitic Contagion.

Since that already a lot, now imagine it using Trailblazer instead of Viper. I think it'd be hard to top that in raw numbers.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Bladesworn has decent sustain. Top GM trait will heal you plenty, so long as you don't get interrupted, and pulses protection. Middle GM trait though is busted sustain with MMR+MM+PS.

[SeTect.5918]

Bladesworn can gain decent sustain.
Mechanist can gain decent sustain for the mech, run if the enemy focuses u instead of ur mech tho.
Has Willbender still the trait that heals u with the flames? if yea it can gain decent sustain too.
Untamed can also get good sustain but the dmg is a bit lacking I heard. Pet can also tank for u.
Specter was very good with tormenting runes, same for harbinger. Since these are nerfed, idk. But I think Specter can still gain good sustain.
Catalyst in condi can get "okay" sustain, but Weaver does it better atm in case of sustain I think.
Vindicator and Virtuoso have least sustain of the e specs since battle scars and tormenting rune r nerfed. I made a condi vindi build that I had to trash now bc of the tormenting rune and battle scars nerf.

[Loopgru.1026]

3 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Vindicator and Virtuoso have least sustain of the e specs since battle scars and tormenting rune r nerfed. I made a condi vindi build that I had to trash now bc of the tormenting rune and battle scars nerf.

Can't speak for Virtuoso, but this is way off for Vindicator in my experience. Obviously it'll depend on your gear and overall build, but Vicky alone gives a positively absurd amount of sustain (low CD good heal, tons of regen/resistance/protection/stability, iframes, condi removal w/ heal-per-cleanse). Even Archie offers a really solid amount of sustain with a low CD, scaling heal, and if you're really feeling pressured you can go with the support dodge for yet another heal + barrier. Plus remember that you've got another full legend to play with- Jalis or Ventari add even more options here.

[Puck.3697]

They are all got enough sustain 

Harbinger I think will make a very good solo build ironically. 

Vindicator is questionable but did well enough. 

But I think machinist will prolly take the prize on it really currently but there maybe some surprises after summer patch tho 

[draxynnic.3719]

15 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

And you can do the same kind of "investment" with most e-specs (It might be difficult to find a "facetanking build" as a virtuoso).

Could probably do reasonably well with the top line of virtuoso traits, Inspiration, and possibly Illusions for shorter recharge on shatters (particularly F4). Use sword as a melee set for Blurred Frenzy, possibly combined with offhand sword for the extra block. Maybe the signet trait for extra Distortion (note that if you have the Illusions trait that improves shatters, this turns any distortion you get into a reflect as an added Cop This). I'm still experimenting, so it might be possible to find a better compromise of sustain and damage output, but it does seem to be possible to get a decent amount of sustain through sheer volume of blocks, evades, Distortion, and aegis.

[Bale.3851]

9 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Harbinger I think will make a very good solo build ironically. 

 

In PVE Harbinger sustain can be god like with alchemic vigor scaling with healing power you can reach 600 hp/s through this trait alone leaving you as a dmg sponge with no dmg. Maybe the question should be how much dmg are you supposed to sacrifice for sufficient sustain. SPVP wise harbinger lacks sustain. Mostly because you wont play an healing power amulett. Most top player chose berserk or marauder which makes you do abnoxious amout of burst but leaving you as the focus target numer one.

 

9 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Vindicator is questionable but did well enough. 

 

I dont get why people still think that. Vindi is may be the most tanky class of all especs. Just go full mara gear and take the heal on dodge. Its a blast. In PVE you can literally perma doge in OW and every 2-3 seconds in a boss encounter. In WVW i felt like a friking angel. Spending more time in heaven than on earth. Just take engergy sigils with adventurer runes plus energy recovery food (perma 40%) and you are set to go. AOE barrier everywhere.

[Dadnir.5038]

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Could probably do reasonably well with the top line of virtuoso traits, Inspiration, and possibly Illusions for shorter recharge on shatters (particularly F4). Use sword as a melee set for Blurred Frenzy, possibly combined with offhand sword for the extra block. Maybe the signet trait for extra Distortion (note that if you have the Illusions trait that improves shatters, this turns any distortion you get into a reflect as an added Cop This). I'm still experimenting, so it might be possible to find a better compromise of sustain and damage output, but it does seem to be possible to get a decent amount of sustain through sheer volume of blocks, evades, Distortion, and aegis.

That's more or less what I thought i'd do for virtuoso but it feel like it would be a bit short of sustain compared to what other profession can get. Also, I'm not sure whether the "3 blades on dodge/block on a 3s CD" is superior or inferior to the "1 blade every 5 stack of bleed" in term of sustain.

On a seraph gear you got 1 trait that can grant you up to 3.5k health on dodge/block with a 3s ICD (drawback is that you can miss your timing), 1 trait that will passively grant you 1.17k health every 3s while in combat (reliable but not exceptionnal) and 1 trait that can grant you 1.17k health every 5 bleed stacks (potentially very strong, especially against pack of mobs).

[Puck.3697]

3 hours ago, Bale.3851 said:

dont get why people still think that. Vindi is may be the most tanky class of all especs. Just go full mara gear and take the heal on dodge. Its a blast. In PVE you can literally perma doge in OW and every 2-3 seconds in a boss encounter. In WVW i felt like a friking angel. Spending more time in heaven than on earth. Just take engergy sigils with adventurer runes plus energy recovery food (perma 40%) and you are set to go. AOE barrier everywhere

Because being strictly melee doesn't make the perfect solo build. 

Like for example, in the first quest when reaching new Keinsung, the bot drops a goo which puts slow on you, if you can fight from ranged you will never have to deal with it but as a melee it can sit directly in the middle of the puddle and become very slow. 

This was what held back Cele/ trailblazer weaver. The lack of ranged option. 

The best solo builds can utilise both melee and ranged, and vindicator cannot utilise ranged, which means it's a direct downgrade to renegade. 

[LucianDK.8615]

On 3/5/2022 at 10:06 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Objectively, it depend how much you're willing to invest into sustain.

For example, harbinger might be seen as a glass canon but, at the same time, a harbinger can easily keep up regen/prot on himself as well as weakness on it's foes, all while getting some juicy life siphon from signet of vampirism, vampiric and vampiric presence. In PvE, at full blight, a plaguedoctor harbinger can have 22k health, 227 hp/s from regen, around 350 hp/s from alchemic vigor, an average of 172 hp/s from vampiric presence, 212 hp/s from signet of vampirism, high amount of health from vampiric since high hit rate is harbinger thing (we are already beyond 1000 hp/s with 100% prot and weakness uptime). All this can be further boosted by the use of signet of the locust, dagger#2, soul grasp/locust swarm or even blood bank/transfusion. And if you're still affraid of not being able to out-sustain you can even go with food that heal over time or/and runeset like rune of the dolyack. All in all, 2k+ hp/s along with damage reduction is probably achievable with this much investment as a harbinger so face tanking shouldn't be that much of an issue.

And you can do the same kind of "investment" with most e-specs (It might be difficult to find a "facetanking build" as a virtuoso).

Wont your damage be in the toilet then?

[Puck.3697]

12 minutes ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

Wont your damage be in the toilet then?

Tbh I find most overinvest in sustain. 

he's forgotten the blight healing, that's a 4k+ heal if utilised correctly. You don't need that many sources of life leach stacked on that tbh. 

 

[LucianDK.8615]

1 minute ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Tbh I find most overinvest in sustain. 

he's forgotten the blight healing, that's a 4k+ heal if utilised correctly. You don't need that many sources of life leach stacked on that tbh. 

 

How would you do it correctly? I am still learning to do the Harbinger. Though I find the blight counter can be difficult to keep track of.

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

How would you do it correctly? I am still learning to do the Harbinger. Though I find the blight counter can be difficult to keep track of.

I generally run full vipers build, with nightmare runes. 

I'd in the case of trying to be tankier likely use celestial over trailblazer. I think the reduction in burst options is waay to low

Blight counter is highly annoying sadly. 

Although I did wanna try ritualist assessories with viper armour to see if the boon extension would be of any profit. 

Is run healing elixir and then one additional to give easy blight removal access to myself as it gives direct healing to expunge. 

Inside shroud use 4 or 5 whenever I got to 14 blight. 

Generally with some good dodge use and abit of kiting at ranged, I found myself not struggling at all.. 

I'm sure there's prolly stronger solo options but j just relied on doing super high damage effectively. 

 

[GrayHawk.7560]

On 3/5/2022 at 9:10 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

Probably mechanist or specter followed by untamed (with restorative strikes).
Virtuoso , harbinger, and willbender are not designed to be tanky and more glass cannon. Bladesworn and vindicator aren't glass cannon but don't have support primarily in mind and catalyst with defensive traitlines (water/earth) or arcane should be okay as well.

What do you mean Vindicator doesn't have support primarily in mind?  Half of it's new elite legend is 100% support based, and it has a full support/heal traitline  (including a heal plus barrier dodge).  They can also dual legend to Ventari or Jalis.

 

On top of the above you get 4 heal skills (two on Legendary Alliance, one on Kurzick's elite and one on the normal legend) all on incredibly short cool downs (aside from life leach from battle scars and Vindicator puts out a huge amount of Vuln so the scars stack up quickly and can get procced equally fast with GS 5 or Luxon side's heal).

 

Now I do agree with you that it probably doesn't have the best sustain of the new set and I agree that would go to Mechanist or Specter but it's pretty kitten close.  

[GrayHawk.7560]

13 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Could probably do reasonably well with the top line of virtuoso traits, Inspiration, and possibly Illusions for shorter recharge on shatters (particularly F4). Use sword as a melee set for Blurred Frenzy, possibly combined with offhand sword for the extra block. Maybe the signet trait for extra Distortion (note that if you have the Illusions trait that improves shatters, this turns any distortion you get into a reflect as an added Cop This). I'm still experimenting, so it might be possible to find a better compromise of sustain and damage output, but it does seem to be possible to get a decent amount of sustain through sheer volume of blocks, evades, Distortion, and aegis.

I found this as well (with pretty limited testing in fairness).  I mean it isn't  staff Mirage with old torment runes levels but top line of Virtuoso, Inspiration and Illusions and running a couple of phantasm's was pretty solid on everything I tested. It may even be overkill on aegis generation to be honest. Virtuoso also works pretty well with Cele gear weirdly enough which also compliments the playstyle.  TTK isn't particularly high played this way but it's definitely serviceable.  With all the aegis you pump out plus other blocks, distortion, evades, dazes and constant small heals it actually ends up doing well pretty well.  It's a lot more of an active sustain playstyle kind of like guardian relying on aegis and blinds to compensate for its health pool.  

[Avatara.1042]

Vindicator, easily.  That dodge-heal is massively broken.

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

Wont your damage be in the toilet then?

Well, there is a price to the investment. Beside, the question is "which new elite have the most sustain?" not "which new elite can reckt everything all while having godlike sustain?" So like I said, as long as you're willing to invest you'll get high sustain no matter which profession.

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

That's more or less what I thought i'd do for virtuoso but it feel like it would be a bit short of sustain compared to what other profession can get. Also, I'm not sure whether the "3 blades on dodge/block on a 3s CD" is superior or inferior to the "1 blade every 5 stack of bleed" in term of sustain.

On a seraph gear you got 1 trait that can grant you up to 3.5k health on dodge/block with a 3s ICD (drawback is that you can miss your timing), 1 trait that will passively grant you 1.17k health every 3s while in combat (reliable but not exceptionnal) and 1 trait that can grant you 1.17k health every 5 bleed stacks (potentially very strong, especially against pack of mobs).

That would likely work with a celestial build that gets extra healing out of Inspiration. It does require committing to the 'blades inflict bleeds' trait, though, since mesmer doesn't normally have access to bleeds, so you'd miss out on the aegis. I'm also not sure you'd get more blades overall compared to taking the top line and really committing to blocks and evades.

[Avatara.1042]

9 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Well, there is a price to the investment. Beside, the question is "which new elite have the most sustain?" not "which new elite can reckt everything all while having godlike sustain?" So like I said, as long as you're willing to invest you'll get high sustain no matter which profession.

The answer to your second question is still Vindicator.

[grx.8714]

With the tormenting runes nerfs I think the best sustain face tank specs will be the ones that have a trait that return hp on damage done, even tho they nerfed some like Invigorating Precision on thief.

At the top maybe we have mechanist due to the bot, on condi gear of course.

 

Speaking of virtuoso, which is the one I'm currently main people forget the first botton heals you for 3% of all condi damage you make, I don't know why they didn't make it 5% like the nerfed Parasitic Contagion, but it's something that can provide decent sustain in viper, celestial or maybe even trailblazer.

 

I don't know about the rest of the specs.

[Naxx.6203]

Just check Lord Hizen's bladesworn build. It's ridiculously strong solo build for open world with 3k tougness, amazing sustain, great damage and additionally provides some perma boons.

[Buran.3796]

^But is slower at killing that some of the PoF builds. And talking about PoF, condi Soulbeast remains untouched in EoD.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Buran.3796