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Invigorating precision nerf made it useless


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31 minutes ago, borgs.6103 said:

It was over-the-top before on mobs

That doesn't really mean anything except that you just defined it as "over-the-top" so I just assume vs. random core tyria trash mobs then in which case everything is "over-the-top" but if you look at thiefs general defensive set overall, especially with one of its main defensive tools being absolutely useless in most relevant PvE boss encounters, and put things in proper context then its absolute trash for what it is.

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That trait was broken not useful and I'm saying this as Thief main. 20% healing on-hit without any internal cd was definitely overpowered and needed significant nerf. Thief's sustain and tankiness com

That trait was useful for self sustain before, but the nerf from 20 to 6 with fury pretty much made it useless even when cleaving multiple enemies the healing amount is rather pathetic with full damag

No, this is from doing whatever events om Cantha. Haven't brought my thief back to the old maps yet.  Some simple maths - Vault does 10k~. 6% of that is 600 more or less. 5 targets is 3k health g

On 3/7/2022 at 2:28 PM, Tsumiju.3071 said:

I still don't understand the reason for nerfing traits like this, it's not like we're doing a massive heal that makes us unkillable in the first place.

I don't see the big deal anyways by the sheer fact that we have like 12k HP. 

But I assume they made it terrible so we can make Lv10 Cores, use more tank armor or play Specter. Maybe it's also to spite people who aren't into Arcane Tricksters to force them to play/try it anyways because after the Medium Legendary Trollcoat I know they like being spiteful sometimes.

Honestly I still eventually went back to DD in PvE though. I like Specter's concept a lot but it's too slow at both movement and attacking/tagging and no weaponskill AoEs aside from the intensely annoying Sc/P 3 that knocks me into aoes or outa boon range in all content, wonky RNG+nerfed dancing dagger, and babysteps range Shroud aoes. 

If I'm gonna use shortbow again I mine as well just play DD. This mentality applied to WvW as well~ I went back to DD and it's just so much better at getting things done (and thankfully the trait isn't nerfed there atm). I'm still using Specter for Strikes and Fractals though for now.

Edited by Doggie.3184
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9 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

I don't see the big deal anyways by the sheer fact that we have like 12k HP. 

But I assume they made it terrible so we can make Lv10 Cores, use more tank armor or play Specter. Maybe it's also to spite people who aren't into Arcane Tricksters to force them to play/try it anyways because after the Medium Legendary Trollcoat I know they like being spiteful sometimes.

Honestly I still eventually went back to DD in PvE though. I like Specter's concept a lot but it's too slow at both movement and attacking/tagging and no weaponskill AoEs aside from the intensely annoying Sc/P 3 that knocks me into aoes or outa boon range in all content, wonky RNG+nerfed dancing dagger, and babysteps range Shroud aoes. 

If I'm gonna use shortbow again I mine as well just play DD. This mentality applied to WvW as well~ I went back to DD and it's just so much better at getting things done (and thankfully the trait isn't nerfed there atm). I'm still using Specter for Strikes and Fractals though for now.

Still annoys me to no end that they asked for feed back. Then seemed to just flat out ignore the feed back.

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15 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

That doesn't really mean anything except that you just defined it as "over-the-top" so I just assume vs. random core tyria trash mobs then in which case everything is "over-the-top" but if you look at thiefs general defensive set overall, especially with one of its main defensive tools being absolutely useless in most relevant PvE boss encounters, and put things in proper context then its absolute trash for what it is.

No, this is from doing whatever events om Cantha. Haven't brought my thief back to the old maps yet. 

Some simple maths - Vault does 10k~. 6% of that is 600 more or less. 5 targets is 3k health gained per Vault. 

I dunno how you play thief, but my main defensive tools are evasion and blinds. The only mobs that I can't blind are champions on scaled events (lots of people there so it doesn't matter) or if I'm playing solo, the elite with a defiance bar. For those I just easily delete the bar then go ham. 

It really boils down to adapting then getting over it then back to playing. Thieves have been nerfed worse before. 

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18 minutes ago, borgs.6103 said:

No, this is from doing whatever events om Cantha. Haven't brought my thief back to the old maps yet. 

Which generally don't apply much pressure aside from the big meta bosses.

18 minutes ago, borgs.6103 said:

Some simple maths - Vault does 10k~. 6% of that is 600 more or less. 5 targets is 3k health gained per Vault. 

Which is both unreliable (as hitting 5 targets is an ideal) and nothing special. 600 healing per second is something the new harbinger spec has on a minor trait and that is on top of all the other re-sustain necro has access to.

25 minutes ago, borgs.6103 said:

I dunno how you play thief, but my main defensive tools are evasion and blinds.

Which is something not every weapon set has access to / spec is based around and therefore can't be generalized but if, like you said, most of your sustain comes from evades and blinds then NQ would have been the prefarable option for you anyways.

32 minutes ago, borgs.6103 said:

It really boils down to adapting

Which for several builds is not a realistic option.

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5 hours ago, borgs.6103 said:

No, this is from doing whatever events om Cantha. Haven't brought my thief back to the old maps yet. 

Some simple maths - Vault does 10k~. 6% of that is 600 more or less. 5 targets is 3k health gained per Vault. 

I dunno how you play thief, but my main defensive tools are evasion and blinds. The only mobs that I can't blind are champions on scaled events (lots of people there so it doesn't matter) or if I'm playing solo, the elite with a defiance bar. For those I just easily delete the bar then go ham. 

It really boils down to adapting then getting over it then back to playing. Thieves have been nerfed worse before. 

It doesn't look like you were doing any solo content where invigorating precision mattered.  Power Thief was already behind condition builds for survivability, and the nerf just absolutely put them at the bottom of the barrel.  

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16 hours ago, borgs.6103 said:

No, this is from doing whatever events om Cantha. Haven't brought my thief back to the old maps yet. 

Some simple maths - Vault does 10k~. 6% of that is 600 more or less. 5 targets is 3k health gained per Vault. 

I dunno how you play thief, but my main defensive tools are evasion and blinds. The only mobs that I can't blind are champions on scaled events (lots of people there so it doesn't matter) or if I'm playing solo, the elite with a defiance bar. For those I just easily delete the bar then go ham. 

It really boils down to adapting then getting over it then back to playing. Thieves have been nerfed worse before. 

Cleaving 5 targets is just the best scenario, but realistically speaking it doesn't always happen and when you are soloing a single tough mob like those in HoT maps it will never heal you that much.

 

Hence why people complain about it as the main use of the trait is for soloing contents not in a group where you have a dedicated healer.

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every fight in this game defines the winner by who is better at managing resources (dodge, healing, skills, boon,etc) invigorating precision pre-nerf gave thief 'enough' resources to possibly win the hard fight. without that 20%?, thief is just a punching bag for champs.

and the condition on invigorating precision is ridiculously high. it needs fury for 20% to be active. it needs a critical hit to be active, the damage needs to be high enough for a decent heal and it also gets torn down by the initiative mechanic. (fix cooldown, fix action time)

do anet know this? of course. but they nerf it anyway because they want specter to look decent. and i want to point out that thief defensive tools is stealth, shadowstep and blind which does not help at all when it comes to champs fight and also any profession can dodge some profession even better at dodging than thief. so, i don't know what people talking about when they said thief is overpowered.

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2 hours ago, Sentinel VX.1392 said:

Cleaving 5 targets is just the best scenario, but realistically speaking it doesn't always happen and when you are soloing a single tough mob like those in HoT maps it will never heal you that much.

 

Hence why people complain about it as the main use of the trait is for soloing contents not in a group where you have a dedicated healer.

This game wasn't supposed to have a holy trinity but people keep trying to force it indirectly.  And i mean anet. Who can to whi cant? Stop screwing with me or forcing me to plag how you want me to by nerfung my playstyle kitten. They dont care and its evident by Dragons End and things locked for progression behind kitten like strikes and raids now.  They won't even let us select the new stats via asended pvp tokens, we have to, 100%, do kitten achievements to get just a few of them. I feel like a kittening monkey doing tricks and jumping through too many hoops just to have fun.

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This nerf was a bit much. I never used the trait myself as I stuck with No Quarter often (I try to burn down the opponents before they can damage me enough), but going from 20% with fury down to 6% was too much of a nerf. 5% without fury and 10% with fury would have been a better place to set it.

Edited by RyuDragnier.9476
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On 3/7/2022 at 5:34 PM, Nawrotex.9521 said:

I think you missed that all of profession's sustain traits got heavily nerfed in recent patch notes not only thief's.

All professions exept Ele, Guardian, Holosmith, Mesmer and Untamed which still has 10% healing from all strike damage.

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On 3/12/2022 at 2:04 PM, borgs.6103 said:

Its still good. It was over-the-top before on mobs. I don't notice the nerf at all on open world events and whatnot. 

It is pretty noticeable though on story boss fights where I now press my heal button sometimes instead of never. 

see thats why we cant have nice things, story content was never hard? and was never meant to be hard? the problem with the 70% nerf is for those of us who actually try to beat the hard content alone, if u are fighting a champ or a leg healing 600 or ur vault and he does 50%-60% of your hp when he hits u, ur basically healing nothing and u will die like a kitten, at this point is either play condi thief or specter and I will die b4 touching wanna be necro but purple soo sadly I had to swap to some braindead condi build 

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Everyone here talking about Vault while it is mainly an evasion (if you time it properly) with some damage (staff 2 hits a lot harder) and most of all, if you're playing open-world, DD isn't exactly the best for soloing any stronger enemies since it 1. fights in melee and 2. has horrible self-boon capability.

If you want to solo champs, you're a LOT better off with Power Pistol+Pistol Deadeye which is still really strong since it can keep up plenty of boon on itself with M7 traited while kiting the enemies to avoid getting hit to begin with. Invigorating Precision fills the health pool if you somehow get hit. If you need to cleave normal mobs, you can just use Sword+Pistol as 2nd weapon set and spam Pistol Whip which has both single-target daze and evade (similar to mesmer's Blurred Frenzy) built-in and you also the damage you take during Stealth Attack (to reset Malice with M7 traited) and Pistol Whip's initial hit gets healed during Pistol Whip's evade part's hits.

For Daredevil, IP is mostly good for godmode on top of boons and some heals from supports in squad now that it got nerfed and ofc it's kinda useless for Specter but that spec has good self-heal thru Consume Shadows anyway. But since both kinda need a booner, they're best in squad content while Deadeye shines soloing.

Edited by LadyKitty.6120
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One thing I didn't love about IP before the nerf was that the effect scaling with damage was so strong that berserker stats provided better defense than defensive stats did, which didn't really make sense. You really should need to mix in a bit of toughness/vitality if you expect to have much attrition in tough fights.

I'm still getting used to it, and I'm not 100% convinced it's right where it should be, but it did sort of deserve a nerf. 

Edited by Einlanzer.1627
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On 3/20/2022 at 12:54 AM, kanatakamura.7502 said:

see thats why we cant have nice things, story content was never hard? and was never meant to be hard? the problem with the 70% nerf is for those of us who actually try to beat the hard content alone, if u are fighting a champ or a leg healing 600 or ur vault and he does 50%-60% of your hp when he hits u, ur basically healing nothing and u will die like a kitten, at this point is either play condi thief or specter and I will die b4 touching wanna be necro but purple soo sadly I had to swap to some braindead condi build 

 

Or you could wear something besides berserker lol. People chronically understate the efficacy of Vitality, Toughness, and HP to a lesser extent in PvE.  A bit of Toughness/Vitality coming from sets like Valk and Marauder helps the flow of combat quite a bit when it comes to more difficult fights. 

Edited by Einlanzer.1627
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4 hours ago, Einlanzer.1627 said:

One thing I didn't love about IP before the nerf was that the effect scaling with damage was so strong that berserker stats provided better defense than defensive stats did, which didn't really make sense. You really should need to mix in a bit of toughness/vitality if you expect to have much attrition in tough fights.

I'm still getting used to it, and I'm not 100% convinced it's right where it should be, but it did sort of deserve a nerf. 

It only provides better self sustain against attack that doesn't kill you(e.g. mob auto attack) and not better defense as if tough mob or boss do high damage attack you will get one shot regardless how fast you heal from IP if you don't have high enough toughness or vitality.

 

So in essence you are practically still squishy even with IP if you are not careful but you have better self sustain since you can't just dodge all the mobs frequent auto attack and the likes.

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13 hours ago, Einlanzer.1627 said:

it did sort of deserve a nerf

Not really, keep in mind that what you described here is not the fault of IP. In general if one would sacrifice 20% damage for 20% defence then the effective re-sustain provided by IP would stay the same. What you take issue with here however is the result of a bad value exchange power based builds are suffering from as getting said "20%" defence will cost you way more than 20% damage which results from power damage being split into 3 stats (as opposed to 2 for condi) leading to a situation where there is no true trailblazer equivalent for power (and there will also never be one unless they fuse precision and ferocity into one stat which I can't see happening at all).

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On 3/23/2022 at 7:47 PM, Einlanzer.1627 said:

 

Or you could wear something besides berserker lol. People chronically understate the efficacy of Vitality, Toughness, and HP to a lesser extent in PvE.  A bit of Toughness/Vitality coming from sets like Valk and Marauder helps the flow of combat quite a bit when it comes to more difficult fights. 

Have u ever tried to solo dungeons (group content in general)? And I used marauders anyways, the 6% heal against the dmg champions and legendaries do is nothing and u will eventually get hit its a long fight, the only way it can "work" is it having a bunch of enemies for u to vault on. Thief still has one of the lowest hp pools in the game (and thats fine if u had ways to counter that like guardian sustain) , the only ppl that were being braindead with IP were ppl in meta events, and why would u care about them? Why cant I play a high risk high reward on thief? nerf it down to 13% but not 6% my vaults do like 7-9k ea soo thats less than a 540 heal per vault. What bothers me the most is that IP wasnt even the meta trait, it is still no quarter. Again they only did that to push condi specs and wallmart necro. I can still solo everything on my VIPER condi d/d DD or DE, and viper is as greedy as zerk lol  and I can even go more braindead on condi and throw a full trailblazer since I dont need power, precision and ferocity that much anyways but I can be greedy on condi cause its an evade spam with good sustain unlike power thief with the 70% nerf to IP. They destroyed power thief for soloing group content at least as a melee, I think u can still braindead DE rifle but I dont know since I would never touch that or pistol pistol or whatever that new purple necro is. And theres warrior, I run full cavalier have a kitten load of toughness and I still do 80k+ with the 100% crit trait on dragon slahes and thats a 6k heal every 8 secs, with 3 charges of my healing skill with the ult and I have 19k+ with no vit stacking, I have almost 17k on my MARAUDER THIEF with cavalier and knight trinkets rn cause Im trying to make this work cause I played condi D/D for 3 days I wanted to die cause its boring af, the rotation is just 333333333333333 dodge 333333333 dodge weapon swap 333333333333333333 dodge 

Edited by kanatakamura.7502
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On 3/20/2022 at 3:26 AM, LadyKitty.6120 said:

Everyone here talking about Vault while it is mainly an evasion (if you time it properly) with some damage (staff 2 hits a lot harder) and most of all, if you're playing open-world, DD isn't exactly the best for soloing any stronger enemies since it 1. fights in melee and 2. has horrible self-boon capability.

If you want to solo champs, you're a LOT better off with Power Pistol+Pistol Deadeye which is still really strong since it can keep up plenty of boon on itself with M7 traited while kiting the enemies to avoid getting hit to begin with. Invigorating Precision fills the health pool if you somehow get hit. If you need to cleave normal mobs, you can just use Sword+Pistol as 2nd weapon set and spam Pistol Whip which has both single-target daze and evade (similar to mesmer's Blurred Frenzy) built-in and you also the damage you take during Stealth Attack (to reset Malice with M7 traited) and Pistol Whip's initial hit gets healed during Pistol Whip's evade part's hits.

For Daredevil, IP is mostly good for godmode on top of boons and some heals from supports in squad now that it got nerfed and ofc it's kinda useless for Specter but that spec has good self-heal thru Consume Shadows anyway. But since both kinda need a booner, they're best in squad content while Deadeye shines soloing.

I'm pretty sure everyone knows u can play braindead pp DE or condi d/d DD, but at least for me they are boring as heal. Staff DD wasnt the best for soloing group stuff but u could and its fun as hell with IP and now u just cant anymore cause the devs need to push wallmart necro and condi on thief 

Edited by kanatakamura.7502
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  • 2 weeks later...

Okay, enough hypothetical arguments, kids.

 

Testing it against generic mobs in the Crystal Desert, and on a power Daredevil (2721 Power, 81~100% crit rate, 220.5% crit damage) using only auto-attack chains*, Invigorating Precision heals for significantly less than Signet of Malice on average.  With Fury.

 

So in short, a build entirely focused around sustaining itself through constant engagement now has an entirely moot Grandmaster trait that can be replaced with the starter Thief healing skill -- which you won't want to activate because 3,275 base healing is far worse than the 132 healing you'll get per-hit on some of Thief's multi-hit weapons in the 15 second recharge period.

 

(* for the curious, this was done to simulate an absolute baseline, without bursting, to see what sustained damage would net, compared to the constant return that Signet of Malice gets you.  Basing an argument on a theoretically infinite pool of Initiative is both unrealistic and bound to crash and burn no less quickly than Thief does since the nerf.)

Edited by fluffdragon.1523
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14 minutes ago, fluffdragon.1523 said:

Invigorating Precision heals for significantly less than Signet of Malice on average.  With Fury.

Considering how much utility and dps you lose by taking SoM, it's a deceptively big change for power daredevil. No more defiance bar damage via Hide in Shadows + Hook Strike (plus the extra power if you trait Revealed Training from kitten). Consider the kiting/re-positioning options as well, and you'll see that it just got immensely harder to solo bosses as power thief.

This change quite literally sucks.

Edited by NorthernRedStar.3054
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The nerf was definitely too severe. "Just dodge" sounds good in theory, but for melee builds, some enemies just deal too much damage with their auto attacks for you to sustain through. It should be 10% healing with fury at least. 

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