Dragon's End Meta is making us hate the game, playerbase and turtle.

[yoni.7015]

1 minute ago, Erise.5614 said:

Congratulations on being so lucky!

This is not a sensible requirement though. Especially not considering the focus of this map. Different than Dragon's Stand the map is not just designed around the meta but also contains story instance entrances and a gathering farm that's not found anywhere else. Fishing achievements tied specifically to this map. I think you get the point. No way to instance it either. 

So it really comes down to luck whether you're in a map that just so happens to have good compositions and highly communicative players and even if you do, whether you have good RNG because consistent clearing is a whole different story as well. 

I agree that the RNG may need fixing but having to coordinate and communicate for a meta event is a great thing. Most open world content is very easy and doesn’t need communication and coordination so the ED meta is a good addition. 

[Erise.5614]

4 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

I agree that the RNG may need fixing but having to coordinate and communicate for a meta event is a great thing. Most open world content is very easy and doesn’t need communication and coordination so the ED meta is a good addition. 

It's a massive issue. Open world is explicitly about spontaneous groups without organization. 

If it is deliberate then it needs better organization tools (e.g. WvW where you can queue up for a group)

Design around the meta itself that communicates this need appropriately to the players. Not a story achievement telling you to play the meta now with whoever ended up on your map. I'm not even arguing inherently against this type of content. But the presentation is terrible if this is the indented difficulty. 

Or the presentation is fine but the challenge is way too big and RNG based. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Erise.5614

[yourexcellency.1458]

Anet made their own casual player base the real final boss because that's what is making this fight hard. 

[yoni.7015]

Just now, Erise.5614 said:

It's a massive issue. Open world is explicitly about spontaneous groups without organization. 

If it is deliberate then it needs better organization tools (e.g. WvW where you can queue up for a group)

Design around the meta itself that communicates this need appropriately to the players. Not a story achievement telling you to play the meta now with whoever ended up on your map. 

And most open world is. You don’t have to communicate you just have to auto attack. So one meta that is a bit more challenging and bringt out the MMO aspect, that you have to communicate with other players, is great. Players who are unwilling to do that have a lot of other meta events. 

[Stelawrat.6589]

5 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

But this is how I did the meta successfully in a pug group. We communicated and built groups accordingly. That’s not an impossible thing to do. Even in open world you can communicate and organize. 

Total noob here, so my questions are just purely out of curiosity. 

Did you use in game chat to communicate?  How long did it take to form a viable group / groups? Were new specs allowed to participate? How many attempts were necessary to complete the meta? Did the group / groups include new players to the franchise?  If you can, please give an idea of how much real time total all of this took, from start to finish. Thank you. o/

[Erise.5614]

3 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

And most open world is. You don’t have to communicate you just have to auto attack. So one meta that is a bit more challenging and bringt out the MMO aspect, that you have to communicate with other players, is great. Players who are unwilling to do that have a lot of other meta events. 

Again. Presentation, framing and rewards locked behind it are terrible then. It's not presented nor even suggested to be hard content that needs this amount of organization or that it may be optional for only heavily invested players. 

The difficulty is not inherently an issue. But then it must build up the awareness and expectation that it will be as such. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Erise.5614

[yoni.7015]

2 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Again. Presentation, framing and rewards locked behind it are terrible then. It's not presented nor even suggested to be hard content that needs this amount of organization. 

I don’t think it’s terrible to lock the turtle behind it. It is the last meta event of the expansion and the turtle is the most amazing feature of the expansion if you ask me. 
There will be less amount of organization needed in the future. It is still the first week ok the expansion. Everything is new for every player. In a month it will be different and more like all the other meta events. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Shogen.5071]

1 hour ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

I suggest everyone just calm down. Here is s good video guide:

It is clear that this encounter requires raid-level gear, builds and some experience in the department, so I suggest those of you who really want to master this encounter and feel like they are capable of learning such mechanics play the new Strike Missions for a couple of weeks (or months, depending on your personal skill level).

Good luck, everyone. 🙂

A Guide wont fix kitten I was with guild last night of prominent T4 CM  vets all of us had fully specced out classes and the whole squad was organsized with alac and boon support for every 5 people split into 10 5 man groups every one critting well above 6 k and we still failed 

the fact of the matter is the BS RNG animations which makes the boss immune to damage and a timer that absolutely unforgiving, I dont care how good you are when your fight against poor game design choices its not fun

when designing a game 
you need to take these core values into play
 

Repetition breaks down into a few components,

• Opportunity Cost
  the time investment is not worth the cost for the reward

• Iteration Time
  the Core gameplay loop is put on the back burn and your asked to restart from the beginning with another set of fresh people

• Dynamic Components
   The Dynamic RNG is part of this meta's problem

• Content Burnout
  this meta felt pretty burnt out after the 6th time
  
  this meta fails these major game design points 

[Erise.5614]

2 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

There will be less amount of organization needed in the future. It is still the first week ok the expansion. Everything is new for every player. In a month it will be different and more like all the other meta events. 

So the difficulty isn't intended? 

Then why lock the mount behind it expecting it to be unavailable for a huge amount of the playerbase for weeks? Also, what were all your previous arguments for then? 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Telgum.6071]

Did it twice, once with [fast] guild and another with a 50 raid squad. While I appreciate the difficulty, this meta is not fun to play.

[yoni.7015]

2 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

So the difficulty isn't intended? 

Then why lock the mount behind it expecting it to be unavailable for a huge amount of the playerbase for weeks? Also, what were all your previous arguments for then? 

How can I know if it is intended? But of course it will be less difficult in a couple of weeks. 
It is not really  unavailable, maybe to players that are unwilling to communicate and coordinate. 

[Shadowresli.3782]

3 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Then why lock the mount behind it expecting it to be unavailable for a huge amount of the playerbase for weeks? 

 

Because otherwise it will be as dead a meta as the ones in PoF in the Domain of Vabbi, no one runs these

[Shogen.5071]

2 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

So the difficulty isn't intended? 

Then why lock the mount behind it expecting it to be unavailable for a huge amount of the playerbase for weeks? Also, what were all your previous arguments for then? 

actually a net publicly stated the difficulty was intended, they have been reluctant to make any noticeable change to the difficulty (IE: the timer itself) in fact they have further chosen to reduce said time for the wisp rush making it hard for newbies to get up in time only to hopefully get those up top open to attacking the bossses sooner which doesnt mean the boss might choose to swap sides 5 times costing you 30 odd seconds per immunity frames if it does it enough times before you trigger a new phase 

[castlemanic.3198]

25 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

But this is how I did the meta successfully in a pug group. We communicated and built groups accordingly. That’s not an impossible thing to do. Even in open world you can communicate and organize. 

The biggest problem with putting raid like content in the open world is that the majority of players don't have optimised builds. which means that the majority of players dont even understand raid like organization tactics

 

open world content shouldnt require raid like organization.

 

How arenanet thought this was going to be fine is beyond me.

[yoni.7015]

4 minutes ago, castlemanic.3198 said:

The biggest problem with putting raid like content in the open world is that the majority of players don't have optimised builds. which means that the majority of players dont even understand raid like organization tactics

 

open world content shouldnt require raid like organization.

 

How arenanet thought this was going to be fine is beyond me.

But they can learn and they can organize and communicate. There are so many sites where you can find optimized builds. So that is not a difficulty.
 I get the feeling from many of the posts here that the majority of guild wars 2 players are stupid and bad. I don’t think that’s true. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Shogen.5071]

3 minutes ago, castlemanic.3198 said:

The biggest problem with putting raid like content in the open world is that the majority of players don't have optimised builds. which means that the majority of players dont even understand raid like organization tactics

 

open world content shouldnt require raid like organization.

 

How arenanet thought this was going to be fine is beyond me.

its not even the raid mechanics thats the issue,  its the timer and immunity frames the stupid boss has that the major issue

[Erise.5614]

8 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

How can I know if it is intended? But of course it will be less difficult in a couple of weeks. 
It is not really  unavailable, maybe to players that are unwilling to communicate and coordinate. 

New metas historically always needed fixing and several weeks of time before a large amount of the community was able to clear it. Not necessarily nerfing, mind you. Between crashes, bugs, exploits and suboptimal balancing between various phases and tasks they never perform as intended. This means for an extended period of time it is only gonna be beat by people who are much better than intended. 

The turtle is effectively inaccessible. It's more than a little coordination and communication. I can't "just do that" and it suddenly succeeds. There is no "just get a little better". The control you have over the success is ridiculously small. Which is exactly why we see LI groups and forcing maps and paying people to leave the maps shenanigans. It's not just me who understood this. It's a ton of hardcore players too. 

Either the difficulty is unintended and ANet should modify the event quickly. Or change turtle access. Or it is intended to be difficulty and not portrayed as such. Leading players with false assumptions into a trap. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Stelawrat.6589]

1 minute ago, yoni.7015 said:

But they can learn and they can organize and communicate.  I get the feeling from many of the posts here that the majority of guild wars 2 players are stupid and bad. I don’t think that’s true. 

Well no... I don't consider myself to be stupid, bad maybe, quite possibly, but not stupid. 😋 That said, would appreciate it if you would reply to my, admittedly noob questions put to you earlier.

[Hotride.2187]

17 minutes ago, Shadowresli.3782 said:

Because otherwise it will be as dead a meta as the ones in PoF in the Domain of Vabbi, no one runs these

Make it rewarding then? AB and TD have squads almost on every meta, more than 1 map in morning and in the evening.

Unlocking the turtle is not rewarding - you finish it once and you forget it exists.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[castlemanic.3198]

1 minute ago, yoni.7015 said:

But they can learn and they can organize and communicate.  I get the feeling from many of the posts here that the majority of guild wars 2 players are stupid and bad. I don’t think that’s true. 

it's not true. nobody said that. what we're're saying is that they don't play with optimized builds, there's a world of a difference between playing suboptimally and being stupid or bad at a game.

the majority of open world players play suboptimally. the majority of players play the game with random builds they make with traits that sound good to them that are not the best in slot. the majority of players don't get builds off of snowcrows or the like. the majority of players don't even come on the forums. they just play the game in the way that they enjoy.

 

asking people who don't play with optimized builds to beat hard content is a huge misstep.

[castlemanic.3198]

2 minutes ago, Shogen.5071 said:

its not even the raid mechanics thats the issue,  its the timer and immunity frames the stupid boss has that the major issue

adjusting the timer (or the health of the boss) and the immunity frames would absolutely make this easier for people.

[Erise.5614]

2 minutes ago, castlemanic.3198 said:

asking people who don't play with optimized builds to beat hard content is a huge misstep.

This actually puts it perfectly. The issue, if it is intended to be hard content, is that it's not portrayed as such.

Which also means people don't prepare appropriately and the difference between expectation and reality makes it all the more frustrating. Much more than reasonable. 

[Stelawrat.6589]

3 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

...It's not just me who understood this. It's a ton of hardcore players too. 

 

And quite possibly bad, but not stupid noobs understand this as well. 😊

[battledrone.8315]

4 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

But they can learn and they can organize and communicate.  I get the feeling from many of the posts here that the majority of guild wars 2 players are stupid and bad. I don’t think that’s true. 

how many casuals have the skills and time to organize raid level content? if they do, wouldnt that make them hardcores?

furthermore, not liking the same content as you=stupid and bad?

2 lessons from this:

know your customers

one size doesnt fit all

[yoni.7015]

Just now, battledrone.8315 said:

how many casuals have the skills and time to organize raid level content? if they do, wouldnt that make them hardcores?

furthermore, not liking the same content as you=stupid and bad?

2 lessons from this:

know your customers

one size doesnt fit all

I never said that players are stupid and bad. I said that many posts here seem to assume that players are stupid and bad. Which of course is not true. I would consider myself casual because I don’t raid or run fractal cms. But I know how to find good builds.