Dragon's End Meta is making us hate the game, playerbase and turtle.

[Shiyo.3578]

Cleared this fight in 3 attempts with a "raider only LI requirement" squad I accidentally got into by farming events for exp on the map. 20 people died to every ground slam and were passively dead, yet we will won.  I didn't get downed once. It's the best meta in the game but the fights completely ruined due to RNG and needs to be fixed.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Shiyo.3578

[Labjax.2465]

39 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

It's not a job. It's a game we play for fun.

There are players that have enough challenge in their life/job and want not to be challenged in a game. Some have fun being challenged, some have fun NOT being challenged. And even the type und level of "challenge" that still is fun, can be different. Some have fun doing a challenging jumping puzzle, some have fun doing a challenging fight. Some players have fun with having the best DPS in their squad, some couldn't care less about such comparisons. That's all equally valid, legit and acceptable. Nothing wrong with that. GW2 has content for all these player types.

Problems/conflict only arises if Anet tries to push different types of players with contrary playstyles into the same content that historically/typically was only for one of this player types.

Example: Players that want 100% open world map completion for the Gift of Exploration and have to visit the WvW maps because they are required for the 100% (Anet removed this requirement in the past).

Example: Players that do not like WvW and just want the Gift of Battle from WvW and that are (nearly) AFKing at spawn and are blocking map slots, so "WvW-players" could not get on the map to defend important things etc.

Example: I do remember that a lot of players complained in the past that they don't want an "easy-mode" for raids because raids should always be challenging. And now Anet did (in a way) the same thing: They made a "hard-mode" open world map meta.

And: It's not about being "stupid" or "bad". To even use this categeories to talk about other players just because they like other things than you, is not a nice thing and this CAN lead to much more toxic behaviour.

EDIT: I understand you meant it not yourself but you wanted to describe how others here in the forum write about others.

Well said. Idk what's with games and trying to pressure their players into doing content they don't want to do. I suspect there are some people in power in games who have complexes about controlling what their players do. That or they are just too obsessed with their particular vision to care about if it harms the game they are shoving it into.

[Ashantara.8731]

17 minutes ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Cleared this fight in 3 attempts with a "raider only LI requirement" squad I accidentally got into by farming events for exp on the map. 20 people died to every ground slam and were passively dead, yet we will won.  I didn't get downed once. It's the best meta in the game but the fights completely ruined due to RNG and needs to be fixed.

Same here, did it successfully yesterday, with an organized raid-structured squad.

I agree that any RNG element that makes it impossible to finish the meta successfully should be reworked.

[Zok.4956]

18 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Well, I still see people going down at the first AoE attack, so either their PCs can't handle the load, resulting in a slide show, or they don't have the reflexes, or their graphics settings cause them not to see the AoE.

Whatever the reason, something isn't right there, and I don't think you can blame an RNG mechanic for this. It's a loss of DPS time.

Yeah, we were joking at the start of the fight how much players are downed from the first attack. 30% or more than 60%?

Sure, there are inexperienced players and there are slow reflexes. But its also the game engine and its visual noise that result in some players not seeing attack tells. And its also the RNG of the boss fight.

Yesterday I was together in the fight with some guild mates that were in this fight for the first time. I announced them the attacks and mechanics in voice chat. They said several times they could not see most of the attack tells I was announcing to them and that it was just a big visual chaos. Also targeting was a mess. Hitboxes are not always there where you see the boss. That were the reasons why this fight was not fun for them.

In this fight players not only fight against (more or less) challenging fight mechanics, but also against a bad fight design (or buggy implementation) because of the RNG and the hit boxes etc. and also against the game engine itself.

The problems with the overwhelming visual noise of the game engine in large scale open world boss fights is nothing new. And it doesn't matter much as long the boss is not doing much and you can just stand there autoattacking and making funny comments in chat about the abysmal fps. But in a fight where attack tells are important it makes a fight unnecessary harder and unfun for some players.

[Zok.4956]

16 hours ago, blackheartgary.8605 said:

And i promise you, if the turtle was not connected to said event,  everyone would be happy. and the content they deliberately choose to skip will be skipped. 

is that the solution you are seeking? 

I already have the turtle and I had fun in the strike mission, so I would not benefit from this change. But I think it would be the right decision/change if players could get the turtle without completing the map meta and without doing the strike mission.

[Zok.4956]

12 hours ago, Necrosian.1359 said:

You don't understand what i meant. That was even before i finally lucked out and got the turtle. And even now, when i have the turtle, i have some sort of PTSD of this meta, where i get tired just by thinking about it. I can't even be bothered to do pre event not to mention meta itself.

It's became dead meta to me after the first success. Now i don't want to go back.

I have to admit, I had some of these feelings, too. Before and after I got my turtle.

But when I got back to the fight, not to win the fight but just to show some guild mates the mechanics, the fight "felt" different without the pressure to succeed after so many fails and I just felt sorry (and I do not mean this in a disrespectful way) for the poor, frustrated players that still were chasing this carrot.

[Adzekul.3104]

I am coming late to the debate. I do not care about the turtle; it adds so very little to the game in my opinion, other than a way to soak up Mastery Points and something for Anet to advertise, to sell copies of EoD. For me, Fishing and Skiffs are much more useful and interesting.

But I have seen the debates in-game and videos in some Youtube channels of several content creators. I have watched streamers organize events on stream and fail. I also note that Dragon Stand was difficult at the launch of HoT, and had a high failure rate until large volumes of people started to understand the mechanics and how to deal with them.

Which brings me to the crux of my post: is the win condition going to improve if people learn the detail of how the "bubble" and "whirlpool" mechanics work? It seems to me that minimizing/avoiding the impact of these 2 mechanics might be the key to winning the fight on a consistent basis.

• what triggers them?
• can they be avoided? (let's not assume that this can be done since "skipping mechanics" is a key feature that Anet want to disable in many other parts of EoD)
• how do we effectively deal with the consequences of getting bubbled or whirlpooled, or minimize the number of affected players?

I have done the event a few times and watched numerous streams of failed attempts ... in the last minutes, a whole load of people get either whirlpooled or bubbled and then the event fails because there is too little damage (think "eggs" from Gorseval -- at least post HoT launch. Today people laugh at the dps loss caused by Gorseval eggs, but in the race to world first Gorseval, dealing with Gorseval eggs was a huge challenge).

From my experience, getting "un-bubbled" relies on friendlies damaging them while you are doing the same, while whirlpools are just a huge problem that seems to result in unavoidable death and mega dps loss (super-frustrating -- but are whirlpools avoidable in some way?).

I do not have answers to the questions I have posed, and so I issue this challenge to the GW2 community:

come together and identify how the critical mechanics (bubbles + whirlpools) are triggered, how to avoid (if possible) or minimize the inmpact on the event, and how to deal with these mechanics.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Adzekul.3104

[ctorrezan.3498]

5 minutes ago, Adzekul.3104 said:

I am coming late to the debate. I do not care about the turtle; it adds so very little to the game in my opinion, other than a way to soak up Mastery Points and something for Anet to advertise, to sell copies of EoD. For me, Fishing and Skiffs are much more useful and interesting.

But I have seen the debates in-game and videos in some Youtube channels of several content creators. I have watched streamers organize events on stream and fail. I also note that Dragon Stand was difficult at the launch of HoT, and had a high failure rate until large volumes of people started to understand the mechanics and how to deal with them.

Which brings me to the crux of my post: is the win condition going to improve if people learn the detail of how the "bubble" and "whirlpool" mechanics work? It seems to me that minimizing/avoiding the impact of these 2 mechanics might be the key to winning the fight on a consistent basis.

• what triggers them?
• can they be avoided? (let's not assume that this can be done since "skipping mechanics" is a key feature that Anet want to disable in many other parts of EoD
• how to deal with the consequences of getting bubbled or whirlpooled.

I have done the event a few times and watched numerous streams of failed attempts ... in the last minutes, a whole load of people get either whirlpooled or bubbled and then the event fails because there is too little damage (think "eggs" from Gorseval -- at least post HoT launch. Today people laugh at the dps loss caused by Gorseval eggs, but in the race to world first Gorseval, dealing with Gorseval eggs was a huge challenge).

From my experience, getting "un-bubbled" relies on friendlies damaging them while you are doing the same, while whirlpools are just a huge problem that seems to result in unavoidable death and dps loss (super-frustrating -- but are whirlpools avoidable in some way?).

I do not have answers to the questions I have posed, and so I issue this challenge to the GW2 community:

come together and identify the how bubbles + whirlpools are triggered, how to avoid (if possible) and how to deal with these mechanics.

The real problem is not the bubbles or whirpools, we can know when it's going to happen and deal with it. The issue is RNG mechanics, yesterday when my group takes the boss to 20% hp what happened? Another spear mechanic before the 3 platforms, it wasted all the time we had, people got angry about it and morale down the drain.

Edited March 8, 2022 by ctorrezan.3498

[Hotride.2187]

So I tried to get into an organized group in "off hours", hoping that it will have less casual players (nothing against them, everything against devs putting this encounter in open world).

Here is what I had to do for about 10 minutes, after the squad entered the map from echovald forest (trying to force a new map):

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FondCornyArcticduck-mobile.mp4

After I joined the map, all those players still did not manage to join it:

https://i.imgur.com/ETfZYaa.jpeg

Also, in echovald forest some idiot event spawned right at xx:00, to prevent us from entering into the map immediately.

Also, the boss event failed in the end with 20% remaining hp. Despite group organization. We missed 1 CC bar (about a second too late) due to it appearing while we were on tail. After that the boss started to spin in circles, and that was the attempt (already failed at 10 min remaining, after 1 hour 40 min of doing basically nothing).

I'm done with this, I'll farm my exp in some other map. Fix your dogshit.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Almaden.6782]

5 hours ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

"raider only LI requirement" 

I'm happy for you, but this sounds like the same kind of elitism and judgmentalism that caused me to leave WoW.

 

"You're not geared up enough for these instances, go PVP awhile, exchange the currency to gear up, THEN come back." "You're not geared up enough for PVP with us. Go do instances, exchange the currency to gear up, THEN come back."

 

See, the question is 'where will this end'. Already we're seeing people boot others for having a spec that came with EoD. Knowing how not to spam weapon key 1 and how not to stand in the fire is one thing, but people are being kicked, from an open world event, which is necessary for the very thing that features front and center in a LOT of aNet's EoD advertisement, for not being experienced enough, with the wrong specialization, and insufficient gear.

 

If Guild Wars 2 is going to become an environment rife with this kind of prejudice I want no part of that. I'll take the same option I did with WoW.

[Desh.7028]

Having to rely on dozen of other players to know how to properly play their class and not stand in mulch? Check.

 

The weirdest massive CC into slow death mechanic ever? Why not?

 

Requiring actual proper boons (an actual first in open world)? Mhm.

 

Resetting 1.5 hours of trash on failure? Like in raids, right? No?

 

Huge RNG which reportedly can vary up to 25% in time required in a small sample of successful tries? You bet.

 

The single worst meta in terms of gold per hour in the game? Player retention guaranteed.

 

Attacks which cannot be dodged without notification which is a stark departure from the most basic game mechanic in the entirety of the game? "I'm a kitten Mirage I don't know how to do anything but dodge" - my Mesmers famous last words 2 seconds into the fight.

 

 

I don't even care about the turtle itself I just want best boy Skyscale to get his HP buff. And the kitten spec collections (2 of which require this nonsense while the others don't and I'm unlucky enough to only care about the Prima Donna one).

[Mark.2068]

I dont try that meta before he fixed, its fixed yet?

I dont find play 2 hour for nothing, TY.

[Justforvisit.3709]

I'm just heartbroken now...

..I was one of the lucky guys that got the turtle and out of fun (AND since it's the only place where you can farm Jadeite) I stayed on this map yesterday  for two attemps in a row and they all were so kitten optimistic about it, that they would make and would get it. And since I already got my turtle and didn't had the trauma / stress / pressure of having to succeed in the event I stayed and helped out as good as possible.

And you know what? They didn't. But what REALLY kind of broke my heart was: It was two attemps in a row which BOTH failed at 1% left HP due to the Boss swooping around with his bite-attack or bringing up his tail in the last 20 or so seconds when he still was around 5% HP.

And then there still where people on these maps who said that this fight isn't lost to RNG, but to lack of damage. Yeah, sure.

What's extra sad is, that apart from this **** of Meta (and afterwards being forced into the Strike, yet another massive roadblock) the Addon is SO kitten GOOD! It starts out as a nice little vacation and serioulsy, after all the battles and hassle the commander / we have gone through in the recent years it felt so welcome and so much needed. I loved it, in the first few days I spoke so highly of it and was about to advertise the **** out of it to all my friends, who didn't play this game yet.

Then I hit this "Meta-Wall" and the Strike afterwards and it completely soured my so well welcome, turned it around 180° and now....well....it just really has massively dampened all the positivness in me towards this addon, especially since the devs seem to have forgotten their core principles of "Play What you like whenever you like", which made me fall in love with this game in the first place.

Not to say that the final meta should be easy mode too, but at least make it fair to everyone. As it is now, I cannot even fathom how much frustration I would endure now if I didn't had my turtle already unlocked when I would have failed twice in a row at a mere 1% HP of the boss left. This isn't fair design. This isn't challenging design. It's outright unfair and frustration-increasing. Even when you already HAVE the mount.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Justforvisit.3709
Corrected some typos

[ProtoGunner.4953]

Wow, luckily I am a bit slower and take my time. Sounds absolutely horrible lol what were they thinking? Good to know so I do some other stuff and it seems I won't finish DICHOTOMY for a couple of days/weeks...

[Donut.6914]

I get auto kicked from the new expansion meta for playing the new expansion class (untamed)

 

gg anet 

[Borked.6824]

On 3/7/2022 at 7:26 AM, yoni.7015 said:

But this is how I did the meta successfully in a pug group. We communicated and built groups accordingly. That’s not an impossible thing to do. Even in open world you can communicate and organize. 

There's not much wrong with this in principal.  I think anybody at any skill level can respect going outside the norm to defeat something worth beating. That's the drive of the game.  But at some point you're going to start asking the question "when does this end?"  If the answer to every question ends up being "just play these 3 specs or else," you're basically nullifying any of the nuance of even having new and alternative specs in the first place.  

It's literally what's being peddled, is that the absolute key to winning the fight is to play certain classes.  That doesn't bode well for people like me that are particularly attached to their shiny new Willbender, or their Bladesworn, or their Virtuoso.  I'll play Firebrand if it means blapping this fight, but if the next one, and the next one keeps revealing trends like "lfg, X boon classes required," that's when I start to lose my cool.

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

Yeah, I never raided in GW2 simply because I hate raids and the community associated with it.  It was never content I wanted to do, so I never did it.  I tolerated strike missions on occasion because they were optional and the time commitment was such that I could choose to do them IF i wanted a specific reward that came from it, and it fit into my schedule as a grown kitten adult with a family.

 

I am frankly pissed off that Anet has had the audacity to make an open world event required for obtaining a key feature of the xpac, and required for experiencing the main story of their game a raid level encounter that can fail due to no fault of the players even when played "correctly".  Worse still, knowing that this is how it is, has made me not even want to bother with continuing the story or experiencing this expansion.  

 

Let me be clear: knowing this is how this all wraps up has made me NOT want to even play the content leading up to it.  This is a categorical failure on their part.  This is a failure of their game design.  And I say this as a player and fan of this franchise from the original GW1 days.  I welcome hard content.  I welcome content that has the ability to fail.  I was a huge fan of the original marionette event back in the day and how we had to learn the best way to beat it, and how great it felt when i was in my first successful clear of that event.  I also remember that us winning that event was all on us, and is failing it was also all on us.  It was just difficult enough to learn you had to work together but was still easy enough to teach new people how to organize as one.

 

This event is NOT that, however.  This event is an open world raid encounter that can fail due to RNG and is apparently being gatekept by the sweaty try-hard community.  And once they tire of it, the event will be a near impossibility to clear for future new players that have no idea what they are in for.  At this point I've already warned off 10 of my friends from even getting this expansion.  That's just 3-400 dollars, yes, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who's done this.  It adds up.  Anet, fix this.   

[Almaden.6782]

23 minutes ago, Donut.6914 said:

I get auto kicked from the new expansion meta for playing the new expansion class (untamed)

 

gg anet 

This is one of several problems with this event. Its also an excellent way to discourage and lose players.

[yoni.7015]

27 minutes ago, Borked.6824 said:

There's not much wrong with this in principal.  I think anybody at any skill level can respect going outside the norm to defeat something worth beating. That's the drive of the game.  But at some point you're going to start asking the question "when does this end?"  If the answer to every question ends up being "just play these 3 specs or else," you're basically nullifying any of the nuance of even having new and alternative specs in the first place.  

It's literally what's being peddled, is that the absolute key to winning the fight is to play certain classes.  That doesn't bode well for people like me that are particularly attached to their shiny new Willbender, or their Bladesworn, or their Virtuoso.  I'll play Firebrand if it means blapping this fight, but if the next one, and the next one keeps revealing trends like "lfg, X boon classes required," that's when I start to lose my cool.

I can only speak for the group I was with but there were no class requirements. I played Harbinger. A lot of other players were playing the new specs. 

[Drakth.1875]

21 hours ago, blackheartgary.8605 said:

And there it is.

See, the HUGE argument that has completely engulfed this event is not about the event at all. Not really. 

the Argument, in a single small nutshell:

"i just want my mount" vs "i want to beat this event"

When we simplify the argument down to it's easiest form,  that's the ENTIRE reason for the hundreds and hundreds of responses, the increased division amongst players, and the countless words being thrown at each other. 

it comes down to "i just want my mount". 

Some people dont have 3+ hours to "organize" the event, not everyone is all day playing, some people only play a few hours a day, with this meta for those people being pretty much all they do, only fail, multiple times.

So yeah, people are going to be mad about it being lucked to hard meta, To me the meta being hard is perfectly fine, but dont lock the turtle to it. Of course i bet almost no one will do this meta if that happens.

[Imba.9451]

6 hours ago, ctorrezan.3498 said:

The real problem is not the bubbles or whirpools, we can know when it's going to happen and deal with it. The issue is RNG mechanics, yesterday when my group takes the boss to 20% hp what happened? Another spear mechanic before the 3 platforms, it wasted all the time we had, people got angry about it and morale down the drain.

 

Thats a normal mechanic and not at all what people complain about when they complain about rng.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

I would say the best thing they can do is make the timer like Icebrood Saga Strikes, where they have multiple timers.  Make the current one the Gold tier timer that gives the best rewards, then add a couple longer timers where each one reduces the loot.  Still have a maximum, though, just like any meta boss.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Drarnor Kunoram.5180

[Shiyo.3578]

6 hours ago, Almaden.6782 said:

I'm happy for you, but this sounds like the same kind of elitism and judgmentalism that caused me to leave WoW.

Yeah, it's bad.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

12 hours ago, ctorrezan.3498 said:

The real problem is not the bubbles or whirpools, we can know when it's going to happen and deal with it. The issue is RNG mechanics, yesterday when my group takes the boss to 20% hp what happened? Another spear mechanic before the 3 platforms, it wasted all the time we had, people got angry about it and morale down the drain.

How is that RNG?  Spear phases are always at 60 and 20%, followed by miniboss split.

[mythical.6315]

"Fixed a bug in which the final boss of the Battle for the Jade Sea meta-event was performing its bite attack more often than intended, including potentially chaining multiple bite sequences in a row. "