ANET lost their way with Dragon's End META

[Lance Coolee.9480]

I truly believe ArenaNet lost sight of what purpose Open World content fulfilled with the Dragon's End META.

I'll be bold - Open world content should be achievable BY ALL, regardless of skill level. Open world METAs are the sight-seer's trails, the amusement park ride that both parents and children can enjoy,  the low-intensity entertainment that is widely inclusive.

And to the try-hard elitists who argue this game needs more challenging content - I won't argue against more difficult puzzles, but open world content isn't the venue for it. Challenges need to be opted in and need to be form-fitted for audiences purposefully seeking it out. Challenging content has low participation for a reason - it is selective and more demanding. Force-feeding that content to the general public isn't going to get greater adoption, it's going to outcast those who aren't actively interested.

 

UPDATE: Anet posted some improvements they're making to the encounter and an alternate access path for the turtle: 

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Lance Coolee.9480

[Caitybee.3614]

5 minutes ago, Lance Coolee.9480 said:

I truly believe ArenaNet lost sight of what purpose Open World content fulfilled with the Dragon's End META.

I'll be bold - Open world content should be achievable BY ALL, regardless of skill level. Open world METAs are the sight-seer's trails, the amusement park ride that both parents and children can enjoy,  the low-intensity entertainment that is widely inclusive.

And to the try-hard elitists who argue this game needs more challenging content - I won't argue against more difficult puzzles, but open world content isn't the venue for it. Challenges need to be opted in and need to be form-fitted for audiences purposefully seeking it out. Challenging content has low participation for a reason - it is selective and more demanding. Force-feeding that content to the general public isn't going to get greater adoption, it's going to outcast those who aren't actively interested.

Yep, hit the nail on the head.

[fourhim.3584]

It seems they're catering now to the elite 5% of players who can actually complete these events with their fellow guildies, rather than casual players.  As a very casual player, I thought that's what raids, fractals, etc were for.  Just curious how they playtested this, both in house and if any playtesting with actual casual players occured at all.  Tell the 50 playtesters "OK, you have no idea what you're doing.  But listen to the Commander in chat.  Good luck."  And which playtesters told them that this 2 hour event is actually enjoyable?  And which playtesters said it was good to lock the Turtle Mount , WHICH PLAYED SO PROMINENTLY IN ALL PREVIEW CONTENT, behind this event?

 

I'm wondering now if they've basically got data somewhere showing that its the elite players who spend extra money in the store more than anyone else, so we need to keep them happy?  And by keeping them happy, I mean allowing them to show off their turtles in the game now, as if to say "Look what I and my buddies could accomplish that you can't!"  I thought that my son and I were spending a lot of money with all the mount skins, outfits, utilities and gold we've bought for the last 8 years, which has to be well over $500 now.  But I guess that's not enough?

Edited March 5, 2022 by fourhim.3584

[Kastagir.2146]

The harder content should be the group/raids/dungeon stuff. The story world stuff should be easy enough for everyone to enjoy. But the devs chose to listen to the hardcore player base that live on the forums. These people are in the minority of any modern mmo player base.. This all started with the fractals and expansions. And Arenanet still doesn't see it. If they never offered up the base game as f2p this game would be in a bad place. You play the base game for 80 levels and enjoy it. Then you think the expansions will be the same and they are not.

Edited March 5, 2022 by wmtyrance.3571

[nosleepdemon.1368]

So how does the difficulty here compare to pre-nerf Orr, and Heart of Thorns? I really enjoyed the difficulty of both of those, and having to work with other players to complete the larger event stages (though not necessarily needing help constantly). It seems like I should get cracking with the expansion before the inevitable pandering to skill clickers and those who insist on only playing on their elbows.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

I am not against challenge. I am against frustration.

 

For example, take Tribulation mode in SAB. The paths and tricky and deadly, but they are always the same. If you find the path, and remember it, you will always succeed. 
But imagine if they were completely random with no way to know the actual path.  That would be just a frustrating waste of time. It'd be like playing a pachinko machine with extra steps and worse rewards. 

 

Breaking the defiance bar of the boss and getting the effect to do extra damage only for 2 measly seconds before the boss proceeds to go from side to side repeately and uninterruptedly for 5 entire minutes letting only its tail be damaged over and over is simply not fun.   
If the boss moving from side to side without any discernible pattern or any sign or voiced cue about what is going on is random, it's bad design because it doesn't guarantee an outcome after one develops the skill and knowledge in the content.
If it's following a pattern, it needs to be hinted so players can avoid going into a frustrating situation.
If that is not supposed to happen, then it needs to be fixed. 

[StupidHealer.6390]

I'm fine with it being harder and understand the tone they were going for (I enjoy the idea of this meta being tense and down to the wire), but I also overall think higher of the community's skill than it often thinks of itself. This leads to how I see the problem: the end boss of Dragon's End is a big mess right now that needs tuning.

The jump in skill doesn't feel too much higher from the previous metas and it's totally possible for casual players imo, it's the boss itself seems far too random in what it will do. I watched a good run yesterday lose due to the boss doing the tail mechanic nigh endlessly, meaning the whole thing repeatedly had to waste precious time turning around to go burn the tail. This doesn't count the fact the boss is possession of attacks that make them untargetable and also does at random, costing even more time if the boss decides to do them multiple times rather close together.

Overall, it doesn't actually feel like a skill issue, it feels like you get lucky or you don't. This makes it extraordinarily frustrating, especially when the chat collapses into everyone yelling at and blaming each other when I don't think that's actually the issue.

Edited March 5, 2022 by NyneaveTallis.8549

[Gorem.8104]

27 minutes ago, nosleepdemon.1368 said:

So how does the difficulty here compare to pre-nerf Orr, and Heart of Thorns? I really enjoyed the difficulty of both of those, and having to work with other players to complete the larger event stages (though not necessarily needing help constantly). It seems like I should get cracking with the expansion before the inevitable pandering to skill clickers and those who insist on only playing on their elbows.

Well, in Orr did it take 2 hours on un-rewarding work to end the result with nothing to show for your 2 hours of work?
In Orr, did a single player be able to render 2 hours of work mute, that you'd need to start the 2 hours over again because of one person able to troll or even worse, not even know they are trolling by standing in the green circle, which we have been taught to do in game many times over? 
In Orr, Was the RNG so bad that you lose access to even being able to hit the boss/es when they were at 1% so that you fail your 2 hour run due to RNG? 

The problem here is even dedicated raid groups are failing after 2 hours of work and paying others to leave the map due to RNG mechanics making the boss untargetable at random moments. Including after breaking the break bar, rendering their change mute. 

[Shiyo.3578]

Challenging content belongs in instances or small meta events, not 50+ person zone-wide metas. I'm less than 1% of the success rate to a 50+ person meta, that isn't fun.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Shiyo.3578

[TheCommander.8129]

3 hours ago, fourhim.3584 said:

It seems they're catering now to the elite 5% of players who can actually complete these events with their fellow guildies, rather than casual players.  As a very casual player, I thought that's what raids, fractals, etc were for.  Just curious how they playtested this, both in house and if any playtesting with actual casual players occured at all.  Tell the 50 playtesters "OK, you have no idea what you're doing.  But listen to the Commander in chat.  Good luck."  And which playtesters told them that this 2 hour event is actually enjoyable?  And which playtesters said it was good to lock the Turtle Mount , WHICH PLAYED SO PROMINENTLY IN ALL PREVIEW CONTENT, behind this event?

 

I'm wondering now if they've basically got data somewhere showing that its the elite players who spend extra money in the store more than anyone else, so we need to keep them happy?  And by keeping them happy, I mean allowing them to show off their turtles in the game now, as if to say "Look what I and my buddies could accomplish that you can't!"  I thought that my son and I were spending a lot of money with all the mount skins, outfits, utilities and gold we've bought for the last 8 years, which has to be well over $500 now.  But I guess that's not enough?

This comment is so full of ball its unbeliveable. It honestly seems like the moment something half difficult comes up the "Auto Attacker Crew" comes to the forums to complain, if people actually just learnt half a rotation (takes 20 mins) you would actually be better players for it. In other MMOs I have played if you cant even hit half a rota you get kicked out of endgame.

I 100% Disagree and say difficult content should be in and out of instance the raids we have in this game are pretty much easy even on the CM mode, The strikes that released are easy (im seriously looking forward to seeing CM), Fractals are easy.
At some point you need to put some effort into what it is you want to do, you cant just expect to always turn up and without some effort claim your stuff.

They have not catered to the top 5% players in quite some time if they had they would have added in more raids like they were after which are harder or even creating a new teir of challenge beyond CM. 

Gratz to anet for finally teaching people how to do break bars perhaps next expansion they get onto a rotation golem and give people the basics maybe??? outside of just 11111221111122.

God forbid when this game eventually goes how people will cope going to other mmos 
The meta is going to be challenging in the 1st week anyway while people work out the strats etc stuff gets tweaked i mean do none of you remember HOT Chak Gerant?

im honestly telling you 10-20 min of your time learning half a rotation would up the door to many people in strikes, raids, fractals, dungeons etc congratz you have done something legendary armor will never do for you and thats make you a better player 

/rant

[Borked.6824]

I honestly don't give much of a kitten about the final meta encounter, but I do despise this whole Dragon's Stand design of maps.  The fact that the whole map in its entirety is hinged to this cyclical and obviously divisive encounter almost completely tarnishes the fun of the zone.  The moment you set foot in the zone, you know exactly what you're doing there.  You're spending the next 2 hours doing content on rails.

[Lance Coolee.9480]

2 hours ago, TheCommander.8129 said:

This comment is so full of ball its unbeliveable. It honestly seems like the moment something half difficult comes up the "Auto Attacker Crew" comes to the forums to complain, if people actually just learnt half a rotation (takes 20 mins) you would actually be better players for it. In other MMOs I have played if you cant even hit half a rota you get kicked out of endgame.

I 100% Disagree and say difficult content should be in and out of instance the raids we have in this game are pretty much easy even on the CM mode, The strikes that released are easy (im seriously looking forward to seeing CM), Fractals are easy.
At some point you need to put some effort into what it is you want to do, you cant just expect to always turn up and without some effort claim your stuff.

They have not catered to the top 5% players in quite some time if they had they would have added in more raids like they were after which are harder or even creating a new teir of challenge beyond CM. 

Gratz to anet for finally teaching people how to do break bars perhaps next expansion they get onto a rotation golem and give people the basics maybe??? outside of just 11111221111122.

God forbid when this game eventually goes how people will cope going to other mmos 
The meta is going to be challenging in the 1st week anyway while people work out the strats etc stuff gets tweaked i mean do none of you remember HOT Chak Gerant?

im honestly telling you 10-20 min of your time learning half a rotation would up the door to many people in strikes, raids, fractals, dungeons etc congratz you have done something legendary armor will never do for you and thats make you a better player 

/rant

I do remember HoT release - and that contributes specifically to why I find it a bit nutty how this open world encounter was released in the state that it is. HoT shipped over 8 years ago. There have been FOUR major releases sense then!

I fully expect they'll balance this so that it's as achievable as all other farmable METAs, but for it to ship in the state that it's in and then only to hear Anet chime in on some small tuning changes feel like they're just not getting it.

[Astralporing.1957]

57 minutes ago, TheCommander.8129 said:

The meta is going to be challenging in the 1st week anyway while people work out the strats etc stuff gets tweaked i mean do none of you remember HOT Chak Gerant?

Better than you apparently, since you have so conveniently forgotten that it took some massive nerfs to Gerent to make people actually succeed at that meta outside of very tightly organized attempts. It was also those nerfs that made that meta popular, because in its original form it definitely wasn't.

 

57 minutes ago, TheCommander.8129 said:

im honestly telling you 10-20 min of your time learning half a rotation would up the door to many people in strikes, raids, fractals, dungeons etc congratz you have done something legendary armor will never do for you and thats make you a better player 

First, i don't care about being a "better player" according to some rules made by some players that happen to like playing in a way way different than i do. I play to have fun the way I like. Second, also don;t really care about letting more people into strikes and raids, seeing as personally do not like that type of content.

"spending 10-20 minutes learning half a rotation" is not going to change any of that (and i can say that with 100% certainty, seeing as i have already spent a lot of time on that, and have tried - and more than tried raids and other types of challenging content)

Personally, i play not to prove something to someone, but to have fun, and it so happens that this event is not fun the way it is.

[Scolix.4879]

Seems like a stressful event maybe ill check back on it after 2-4 years i am in no rush and the mount looks cool but after i tested it on beta i don't really see any point or use for it especially how much effort/stress getting it seems to be.

 

 

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

First, i don't care about being a "better player"

I'm honestly curious about this. You play an RPG and enjoy being downed by a veteran enemy, whereas other players solo legendaries?  Doesn't that hurt your roleplay/fun experience?

Genuine question.

[Tukaram.8256]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Personally, i play not to prove something to someone, but to have fun, and it so happens that this event is not fun the way it is.

I agree with this completely.  I have nothing to prove to anyone, I am just bashing monsters to have fun. 

 

12 minutes ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

I'm honestly curious about this. You play an RPG and enjoy being downed by a veteran enemy, whereas other players solo legendaries?  Doesn't that hurt your roleplay/fun experience?

How you play, and what you can/cannot kill has absolutely zero effect on my enjoyment.  This is not a competition, it is a monster bashing video game. 

 

7 hours ago, Lance Coolee.9480 said:

I'll be bold - Open world content should be achievable BY ALL, regardless of skill level. Open world METAs are the sight-seer's trails, the amusement park ride that both parents and children can enjoy,  the low-intensity entertainment that is widely inclusive.

This. Totally.  Open world content should be aimed at the majority of the players. In GW2 that would be the casual player.  There are strikes/raids/dungeons etc for the ones that want it. 

 

I would think the devs did their testing with their god-mode characters and did not realize how the fight would play out in the real game.  I expect a pretty serious change relatively soon...  😎

[Astralporing.1957]

9 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

I'm honestly curious about this. You play an RPG and enjoy being downed by a veteran enemy, whereas other players solo legendaries?  Doesn't that hurt your roleplay/fun experience?

Genuine question.

Being forced into a gameplay i do not like is what hurts my fun. If i have problems with OW, it doesn't mean i;m not "good enough". It means the game difficulty was set too high for me to have fun. That's doubly true if that "game difficulty" suddenly becomes different than it was before.

Which is, btw, not very relevant in this case. The problem with this event is not "higher difficulty". It's the dumb mechanics that are quite easy by themselves, but by merely happening (which is RNG dependent) significantly decrease chances to succeed.

If you analyze the videos from that event, you will see very fast that the maps that succeed are not necessarily maps with the best players. It's the maps that gotten most lucky with their mechanic sequences. And having the success of your 2-hour long event be dependent on roll of the dice is definitely not what i would ever consider fun.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

13 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If i have problems with OW, it doesn't mean i;m not "good enough".

This is quite arrogant for a statement, honestly. Usually, that's exactly what it means. Granted, Dragon's End has issues that are unrelated to player skill.

[Geckoo.6018]

I appreciate the effort and intention they have with this fight, but i believe the best way to fix this situation would be to have two fights.

One fight as part of the meta event, tunned to be very forgiving and essentially succeed as long as there are enough players doing it. Basically, the working formula for any meta event: be there, play however you want/can, have fun and get rewarded.

Another fight following their intended design tunned for a full organized squad and working as a separate instance that players join as a private squad whenever they want, like they do now with the marionette or dragonstorm.  Essentially, since it is designed to be a massive raid fight, then treat it as such.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Geckoo.6018

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

This is quite arrogant for a statement, honestly.

No. it's not. It's quite simple, actually - games exist to offer certain gameplay to people that like that type of gameplay. They do not exist to push players liking one gameplay into a completely different one.

So, the basic question here is this: do Anet devs want people like me play their game? If the answer is no, then sure, it is my fault - not due to not adjusting, but due to picking a wrong game. But if the answer is yes, then this is a design fault issue. Notice, that nowhere there is there a place for players's fault due to them not "improving" enough.

In short: there are no "better" and "worse" players. There are only issues caused by games' design not being well-adjusted to their playerbase.

[Darklord Roy.2514]

6 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

This is quite arrogant for a statement, honestly. Usually, that's exactly what it means. Granted, Dragon's End has issues that are unrelated to player skill.

 

People with your outlook honestly boggle my mind. You have let video games become entirely about "I'm a better player than you" rather than "I'm doing this because I want to have fun." Not everyone plays a game to be in the top 5% and learn perfect skill sequences. Let people enjoy the game and stop being an elitist.

[Spicebounty.1475]

23 hours ago, Lance Coolee.9480 said:

I truly believe ArenaNet lost sight of what purpose Open World content fulfilled with the Dragon's End META.

I'll be bold - Open world content should be achievable BY ALL, regardless of skill level. Open world METAs are the sight-seer's trails, the amusement park ride that both parents and children can enjoy,  the low-intensity entertainment that is widely inclusive.

And to the try-hard elitists who argue this game needs more challenging content - I won't argue against more difficult puzzles, but open world content isn't the venue for it. Challenges need to be opted in and need to be form-fitted for audiences purposefully seeking it out. Challenging content has low participation for a reason - it is selective and more demanding. Force-feeding that content to the general public isn't going to get greater adoption, it's going to outcast those who aren't actively interested.

All of this. Its not even three weeks and we're already at the point of players getting kicked or pressured out of groups/instances for not being a specific build or having a hard time with the mechanics. No one is saying ALL of GW2 need to be of casual mode but there needs to be a difficulties that branches off to where players can specifically seek that out with likeminded players. Mashing various groups of players with various playing abilities is causing more of a hostile environment than good experience.

[Cegolex.8702]

Can you all stop pretending like it is some super difficult meta.

And you dont need 2 hours for it going there 1 to 1.5 hours before is enough.

No you dont need to learn difficult rotations etc. just do more dmg than some staff ele on minstrel gear.

Dont run some randomized build where you pressed the icon you liked most, try to provide something to the group as well.

If you want to press 1111111111 for the entire fight consider Herald as your option.

Give the commanders some time to figure out good strategies.

Then prepare on the map get all the buffs available.

Get familiar with the boss and mechanics.

If everyone does this the Meta isnt all that difficult even with not so great RNG. (even though the RNG factor should be limited more in my opinion)

 

You never needed some high end raid setups for this and be at the 1% of benchmarkers to do this meta just apply what arenanet taught you.

And eventually when people got better at the meta even some people that run minstrel full signet ele with staff will get carried.

 

Edited March 6, 2022 by Cegolex.8702

[Drakth.1875]

On 3/5/2022 at 3:14 PM, Lance Coolee.9480 said:

I truly believe ArenaNet lost sight of what purpose Open World content fulfilled with the Dragon's End META.

I'll be bold - Open world content should be achievable BY ALL, regardless of skill level. Open world METAs are the sight-seer's trails, the amusement park ride that both parents and children can enjoy,  the low-intensity entertainment that is widely inclusive.

And to the try-hard elitists who argue this game needs more challenging content - I won't argue against more difficult puzzles, but open world content isn't the venue for it. Challenges need to be opted in and need to be form-fitted for audiences purposefully seeking it out. Challenging content has low participation for a reason - it is selective and more demanding. Force-feeding that content to the general public isn't going to get greater adoption, it's going to outcast those who aren't actively interested.

I have to agree, free our turtle from this annoying meta.

[Shaaba.5672]

9 hours ago, NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

This is quite arrogant for a statement, honestly. Usually, that's exactly what it means. Granted, Dragon's End has issues that are unrelated to player skill.

Well, I can solo champs on my own, but in open world metas, my computer is kitten. I'm one of those that aren't going to "get good" in certain content. My problem and I'm pretty much fine with that. It just means that I am not going to be useful in the DE meta because I don't see a lot of the stuff I'm supposed to react to until it's too late. I still want a turtle.