ANET lost their way with Dragon's End META

[Gibson.4036]

20 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

There's no way to make the fight challenging to hardcore players without making it impossible for average/competent casuals to pass. There's no way to tweak the difficulty so the fight is challenging, but passable to average/competent casuals without hardcores trivializing it with their vastly superior dps numbers. As such, content for those two groups should be clearly separated (or, at the very least, the harcore, challenging content should be separated from the part of the game that aims at a majority of players).

You have good points, but this got me thinking about a few events we have in the game that are split.

Reading up on Triple Trouble, Dulfy's guide explains that Crimson is the simplest head, and Amber the most complicated. I've seen players announce they are new to TT and ask where to stand to be a part of the group that fights Crimson.

Or for Octovine. East is so simple players there have to be regularly yelled at to remember not to finish vine before the other three. New players can head there, while experience players do their own vine and even jump over to help another one that's lagging.

Then I thought about Marvel's Avengers. How do you involve "normal human" Hawkeye and Black Widow in a fight alongside their god-tier team mates? You write fights where there is stuff to do at every power level.

Instead of a mass of players all avoiding the same mechanics and trying to put out one big lump of dps together, would it be possible to dig deep on the idea of creating several different skill level lanes (doesn't have to actually be geographical lanes) that players self sort into in order to finish the meta? Scale the rewards across the difficulty lanes to match how hard they are to do, and make sure the game measures participation so people who try for lanes way to hard for them won't end up with those better rewards. All players get to be a part of the big fight, all players get rewarded, but players find their natural flow zone where they are challenged, but not beyond where it's fun. Everyone celebrates together at the end.

I dunno, as I'm typing this out in thought, perhaps this has the potential to increase tribalism between the skill levels even more. I could see "We failed because the hardcores didn't do their end" vs. "No, we failed because the casuals weren't even able to keep up their baby-mode side". 🤷‍♀️

Edited March 9, 2022 by Gibson.4036
Sorry if my rambling "thinking out loud" was confusing. Just wondering if it would be possible to create one event that gives a place for casuals whlie also challenging the hardcore.

[Gibson.4036]

Double post.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Caitybee.3614]

All of this is honestly making me a bit depressed. I take one look at the forums, read the responses and don't even want to log into the game for a while. I never expected to feel this way towards GW2, and I absolutely adored this game for a long time. I know it sounds like I'm being dramatic over a "turtle" but it's not just that anymore. It's getting burnt out playing for hours and hours knowing in the back of your mind the chance of failing is pretty high - almost guaranteed, and seeing the frustration from everyone else in chat/squad as well takes a toll. If they ever do implement a fix, it might not come for many weeks, and by then who knows how many people are still around willing to even try - the ones who have yet to get a successful run.

[Stelawrat.6589]

5 minutes ago, Caitybee.3614 said:

All of this is honestly making me a bit depressed. I take one look at the forums, read the responses and don't even want to log into the game for a while. I never expected to feel this way towards GW2, and I absolutely adored this game for a long time. I know it sounds like I'm being dramatic over a "turtle" but it's not just that anymore. It's getting burnt out playing for hours and hours knowing in the back of your mind the chance of failing is pretty high - almost guaranteed, and seeing the frustration from everyone else in chat/squad as well takes a toll. If they ever do implement a fix, it might not come for many weeks, and by then who knows how many people are still around willing to even try - the ones who have yet to get a successful run.

Don't make me come in there & sing to you!! 😠 Now listen up! It's a song from my early days... *cries but only a little because slightly angry 

 

[Kikokuma.9405]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

That's not even a question as the official description of OW content explicitly states that it's designed for casual play and that you don't need a party to do the events / they don't put players against each other for how engage with the content.

So yes, the OP is 100% right with this which is especially bad sice you would at least expect the "final big celebratory OW map" to adhere to the principles this type of content is based on.

This isn't entirely true, open world meta events are specifically designed for large groups, and organized play. You can not do these as just a solo casual player by yourself. Also many open world events are specifically labeled as "Group Events" That yes maybe some more competent players or the min/maxers can complete solo but will be basically impossible for a casual player to solo.

[Tails.9372]

9 minutes ago, Kikokuma.9405 said:

This isn't entirely true

Except it is, that you don't need to be in a party is a direct quote from Ben Kirsch which is still featured on their main page. Group events are explicitly labeled as casual activities, them not adhering to what they advertised this content as doesn't make anything I said any less true.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Kikokuma.9405]

2 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Except it is, that you don't need to be in a party is a direct quote from Ben Kirsch which is still featured on their main page. Group events are explicitly labeled as casual activities, them not adhering to what they advertised this content as doesn't make anything I said any less true.

Ooook.... Then go do Dragon Stand meta Solo and get back to me on how far you get. I'll wait. 

[Tails.9372]

15 minutes ago, Kikokuma.9405 said:

Ooook.... Then go do Dragon Stand meta Solo and get back to me on how far you get. I'll wait.

What's your point here? I already said that they're not adhering to what they advertised the content as which is part of the reason why so many people are upset and also happens to be the topic of this thread.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Kikokuma.9405]

3 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

What's your point here? I already said that they're not adhering to what they advertised the content as which is part of the reason why so many people are upset and, in case you haven't noticed, also happens to be the topic of this thread.

Maybe the game has evolved in 10 years?... Maybe don't take a quote talking about the core GW2 zones and apply it to EOD?... 
Also you quoted it wrong... it's specifically "We designed Guild Wars 2‘s open world to encourage casual group play and cooperation between players."
And still after 10 years that is like 95% true. Soooo.... 

[Astralporing.1957]

13 minutes ago, Kikokuma.9405 said:

Maybe the game has evolved in 10 years?... Maybe don't take a quote talking about the core GW2 zones and apply it to EOD?... 
Also you quoted it wrong... it's specifically "We designed Guild Wars 2‘s open world to encourage casual group play and cooperation between players."
And still after 10 years that is like 95% true. Soooo.... 

You know, Titanic was also 95% unsinkable.

[Kikokuma.9405]

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You know, Titanic was also 95% unsinkable.

What does this have to do with anything? Do you actually have something intelligent to add to this discussion or do you just want to troll?

[Tails.9372]

23 minutes ago, Kikokuma.9405 said:

Maybe the game has evolved in 10 years?... Maybe don't take a quote talking about the core GW2 zones and apply it to EOD?...

It doesn't matter how old it is, it's still what's featured on their main page today.

23 minutes ago, Kikokuma.9405 said:

Also you quoted it wrong... it's specifically "We designed Guild Wars 2‘s open world to encourage casual group play and cooperation between players."

I don't know who wrote the text you quoted and I bet neither do you but as I said it's a "direct quote from Ben Kirsch" so at least have the courtesy to bring up the correct quote:

"You can play with anybody, you can play with people you're just running through the world with. They don't have to be people you know from outside of the game, they don't have to be people you build a party with." - Ben Kirsch

23 minutes ago, Kikokuma.9405 said:

And still after 10 years that is like 95% true. Soooo.... 

It certainly wasn't true for the HoT maps on release which is why they had to backpattle hard back then and it certainly isn't true for how DE is rn which is why this thread here even exists.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Kikokuma.9405]

1 minute ago, Tails.9372 said:

I don't know who wrote the text you quoted and I bet neither do you but as I said it's a "direct quote from Ben Kirsch" so at least have the courtesy to bring up the correct quote:

"You can play with anybody, you can people you're just running through the world with. They don't have to be people you know from outside of the game, they don't have to be people you build a party with."

- Ben Kirsch

This is yer quote that yer basing yer argument off of?.... this says nothing about what kind of content you can complete, what you'll be able to achieve, what you can play or expect to do. All this says is there is people... And you can party with them or not. 
This is like... even weaker than the argument i made for you... 

[Kikokuma.9405]

4 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

It doesn't matter how old it is, it's still what's featured on their main page today.

Yes... it doesn't matter what size you are now, i've seen yer baby pictures so hence you are still a baby. 
That is basically what you are saying.

[Lance Coolee.9480]

2 hours ago, volca.7234 said:

You know what? i am doubling down

 

EVERYONE IN THE THREAD STRUGGLING WITH THE META:

I am ready to establish a guild or talk with big guild leaders in EU at least to organize and invite 3 or 4 well experienced commanders to do this meta with you, got ties to really big guilds with amazingly skilled commanders and players, if you want simply quote me with your server NA or EU, thats all you need to do, and if you don't get your turtle on the first try i will myself give you 10 golds of my bank, my max wealth is like 400ish gold liquid and assets so 10 gold really hurts me to give, but im willing to do so.

 

The sentiment is appreciated. Hardstuck has also been driving folks through the meta as well these last few days. But that's not really the point. 

There is a venue for challenging content and a venue for relaxed content. OW content has typically been the place for chill play. Like I said earlier, I play with my 8yr old daughter in a lot of open world content, Mordremoth included. I can't play with her in the DE meta, and had to fight like hell to get a turtle they was advertised as a centerpiece of this expansion, just so I can taxi my awestruck kiddo around in.

When I want hard content, I tag up for it, I opt in to it, and I focus on challenges that are form-fitted for it. 

And to repeat myself from moments earlier...

1. Groups aiming for difficult content need to be able to firmly control their team composition. The open world is a terrible place for this (as is evident with groups now trying to form in Arborstone ahead of the META to try and mitigate this).

2. Groups aiming for difficult content need the opportunity to fail/recover/repeat quickly. I don't think I need to explain why the time investment for this META substantially hinders this.

[Kaliwenda.3428]

1 hour ago, Caitybee.3614 said:

All of this is honestly making me a bit depressed. I take one look at the forums, read the responses and don't even want to log into the game for a while. I never expected to feel this way towards GW2, and I absolutely adored this game for a long time. I know it sounds like I'm being dramatic over a "turtle" but it's not just that anymore. It's getting burnt out playing for hours and hours knowing in the back of your mind the chance of failing is pretty high - almost guaranteed, and seeing the frustration from everyone else in chat/squad as well takes a toll. If they ever do implement a fix, it might not come for many weeks, and by then who knows how many people are still around willing to even try - the ones who have yet to get a successful run.

This is exactly how I feel too.  I'm shocked at how quickly it happened.  I'm not even half-way thru the story and I've lost interest. 

I hope something happens to bring my enthusiasm back.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Kaliwenda.3428

[Tachenon.5270]

What I find really funny (in a sad sort of way) about all this is that, just a few years ago anet decided to revamp the starter zones with the infamous New Player Experience, because evidently the low level game was just too darned complicated for new players. Now here we are in End of Dragons being epically challenged, with not a single cow to entertain in sight.

[Tails.9372]

23 minutes ago, Kikokuma.9405 said:

this says nothing about what kind of content

Ofc. it does because there is such a thing called "context" and we all know how much of a mess playing the DE meta is if you don't organize parties for it (preferably with voicecom outside of the game).

21 minutes ago, Kikokuma.9405 said:

Yes... it doesn't matter what size you are now, i've seen yer baby pictures so hence you are still a baby. 
That is basically what you are saying.

That doesn't follow, if things have changed one would expect me to update the picture I feature accordingly. Same with how A-Net advertises their content but neither have they updated their main page nor did their EoD page state anything that would give people a reason to expect that they changed their approach for this type of content.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Kikokuma.9405]

10 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Ofc. it does because there is such a thing called "context" and we all know how much of a mess playing the DE meta is if you don't organize parties for it (preferably with voicecom outside of the game).

Are we talking actual context or like made up in yer mind context? Would you want to actually link to the quote for this context? Still doesn't really matter because as stated.... games change and evolve over time. Or did you also complain about gliding when that was introduced? how about mounts? what a terrible addition to the game that was... geez... wouldn't it be great if we just stuck with core GW2 forever? How bout if we just never got breakbars to change up combat? Oooo what a perfect game. 

 

 

18 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

That doesn't follow, if things have changed one would expect me up update the picture accordingly same with how A-Net advertises their content but neither have they updated their main page nor did their EoD page state anything that would give people a reason to expect that they changed their approach for this type of content.

They have... they have given you this new picture of what they are now. EOD is what they are now. But instead of looking at that and saying "oh look, you've grown up" you are refusing to aknowledge that and staring at that baby picture (that random quote) and saying "SEE! Look! BABY!!!!" like how does this not make sense?

[Tails.9372]

8 minutes ago, Kikokuma.9405 said:

Are we talking actual context or like made up in yer mind context?

Given that it was featured on their page about OW events: actual context.

14 minutes ago, Kikokuma.9405 said:

how does this not make sense?

Because you're not making sense on any of that, if they changed their approach to content design then they should just come out and say so and not advertise X while delivering Y.

[Kikokuma.9405]

3 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Given that it was featured on their page about OW events: actual context.

Because you're not making sense on any of that, if they changed their approach to content design then they should just come out and say so and not advertise X while delivering Y.

Ook.... Well there just seems to be no helping you. But man oh man, thank you for the laughs. 

[Niteraven.1372]

On 3/7/2022 at 1:03 PM, Jack Mc Daniel.5624 said:

This META event is just frustrating because you have little control over it. It's like playing the lottery and after the 10th failed attempt you don't want to play anymore. 😞

I failed 8 times.  That's enough for me.  I won't do it anymore and I ALSO won't be paying ANET anymore in Gems.  Let them eat it.