Are strike missions going to succeed where raid failed?

[Firebeard.1746]

54 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

If there happens to be a moment in which the in-game LFG doesn't offer the training you need on the exact hour you need it, maybe consider Joining a discord, guild, subreddit, or other group of players that do offer raid training? 

Better than screaming "people that don't want to train me are mean and toxic!" on the forums, I think.

That's the problem though. When I was trying to get trainings, the discords I was on didn't line up. You're not listening. 

People screaming on forums isn't the issue either, it's a symptom: engagement falls when newer players feel gated out of attempting the game mode. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Firebeard.1746]

 

Quote

And you're telling me that "most players are too toxic" ? You became the very thing you swore to destroy Anakin. 

So are you blatantly ignoring my posts to try to bait a toxic reaction? I mean I don't know what else to say. Also I editted this before your response hit. I would say ignoring someone is toxic when you think you're having a conversation with them. You're exactly right though and that's why I editted it out before your response hit. Didn't want to be like you. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

The amount of hours you spent on the golem doesn't tell me much. Some are good with 1hr, some need days to tackle down single rotation. 

The point stands that I made the effort but training runs weren't available and no one helped me when I was able to play (or said training runs were rare and when they existed, they were a terrible experience). That was the problem. I also sound like a broken reecord at this point. The culture around raiding wasn't inclusive enough. 

THE FACT I CAN SUCCESSFULLY RAID NOW, BUT COUDLN'T BEFORE CLEARLY ILLUSTRATES COMMUNITY GATING IS AN ISSUE. I ONLY GOT OUT OF IT DUE TO A LUCKY BREAK. THAT IS EVIDENCE ENOUGH THE FORMAT WAS BROKEN: A CLEARLY CAPABLE PLAYER WAS ARTIFICIALLY KEPT FROM SUCCEEDING IN THE FORMAT. I fear strike CMs may end up having the same issue. We'll see. 

 

Quote

WHO? You yourself are ahead of 90% of the playerbase. Do you feel like elite?

You can raid and not be elitist. I don't inquire people whining about raids as to how many kills etc,  say things like "git gud noob." Blatantly ignore that they're trying on discords, etc. I also never yelled at people for poor performance like some of my trainers. To the credit of another one of my trainers they started being honest about comps and stopped setting people up for failures, but there are trainers that do that, but I feel that discourages people. 
I respect that people have had a hard time with raiding and I honestly feel like anet needs to accommodate casuals as well as raiders. And I'm sure to call out the played time differences anytime someone calls non-raiders "entitled" when they talk about legendary armor specifically. 
 

 

Quote

 

  1 hour ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Raiders and anet shouldn't expect most GW2 players to play on that level. That's another reason they failed.

I agreed to that in my previous post. 

 

 

If you agree with this point, it shows why the game mode was dead: Anet shouldn't be wasting valuable resources on content only a fraction of the player base wants to play, especially when they don't get as much cash as other studios. I feel like anet should take a page out of blizzard's book and make some legendary armor sets based on more casual content, much like how blizzard has raid finder armor sets. And yeah they don't have the same prestige, but some of them are cool transmogs. A legendary armor based in IB saga strikes would never be as prestigious as envoy because it doesn't require the same effort, but it would still be a good gesture for casuals who don't want to raid. And it would give people more things to do if they're an OCD collector. They should also keep difficulty consistent across game modes: HT strike mission is on paar with a real raid and is more difficult than many raid encounters. 

Sorry for getting tilted, shouldn't have called you a fool for blatantly ignoring me, though I'd say that's a very disrespectful way to approach someone. YOu're no angel.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Juan.6124]

On 6/11/2022 at 12:23 AM, NaramSin.2693 said:

No, the playerbase it's the same with a lot of toxic elitist asking for KP and LI 🤦‍♂️ it's just faster than clear an entire wing, they also allowed them to get a turtle that they do not mind at all, since people show them just to flex they have it, and those that really want it can't have it due to the silly way to acquire a useless mount that throw them in the welcoming  kp/li country, go figure 🙉

Have you tried making your own group instead of complaining about what others do?

Edited June 16, 2022 by DirtyDan.4759

[Juan.6124]

10 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

And that's basically why I went on such a strong crusade against raids for such a long time on these forums: I had put tons of effort in, learning harder rotations and gearing out many roles and couldn't find people willing to train me. 

 

Make your own squad. If after over 6 years of raids you havent gotten into a training run I feel like there are more you related issues than game related ones.

Edited June 16, 2022 by DirtyDan.4759

[Baseleader.4128]

5 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

THE FACT I CAN SUCCESSFULLY RAID NOW, BUT COUDLN'T BEFORE CLEARLY ILLUSTRATES COMMUNITY GATING IS AN ISSUE. I ONLY GOT OUT OF IT DUE TO A LUCKY BREAK. THAT IS EVIDENCE ENOUGH THE FORMAT WAS BROKEN: A CLEARLY CAPABLE PLAYER WAS ARTIFICIALLY KEPT FROM SUCCEEDING IN THE FORMAT. I fear strike CMs may end up having the same issue. We'll see. 

You must have been in a pretty remarkable situation timewise, because I've been in 2 (EU) raid training discords and they really offer a lot of trainings on a variety of different moments. There definitely IS gatekeeping in raids/strikes CMs and it can be tricky to navigate and frustrating at times but it's certainly very much possible to start raiding without a guardian angel. I came back after a 4y break a couple of months ago and learned the w5-7 raids purely through LFG with non-kp and training runs.

As I said, seeing a lot of 50KP groups can be a little frustrating but it's also entirely normal to me. Experienced raiders who are about to do Dhuum for the 30th time don't want to wipe for 2h every time teaching new people the mechanics. Sometimes I join chill, non kp groups and enjoy myself but I also often don't have endless amounts of time and look for experienced groups because I just want a fast clear. 

In an ideal world you could just write "experienced" and only people who actually know their role well would join and you'd have high success rates but sadly people just lie to their teeth en masse and people who have no clue what they're doing join the run and fail. Only in sth like the HS discord does that really work cause there's an element of social consequences. So the alternative is risk limitation with kp.

 

I very much disagree with the idea  of raids being toxic. The gatekeeping element is present but that to me is not toxicity at all. If you dont join a 50kp group when you dont have 50kp, there is no "toxicity" at all. Generally if people feel like the run isnt going anywhere they'll leave, but rarely do people really start arguing or calling eachother names. People also falsely have the idea that if you dont bring the absolute ultimate build and dps rotation that you'll get kicked. Nothing is further from the truth. As long as you don't ge below an abslute bottom of performance, people dont care. You often see 3 scourges in a group, 1 doing 30k, 1 27k and 1 22k. The truth is that the 22k is performing quite poorly but if you dont drop below like 19k, people just dont care.

[Juan.6124]

6 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

THE FACT I CAN SUCCESSFULLY RAID NOW, BUT COUDLN'T BEFORE CLEARLY ILLUSTRATES COMMUNITY GATING IS AN ISSUE. I ONLY GOT OUT OF IT DUE TO A LUCKY BREAK. THAT IS EVIDENCE ENOUGH THE FORMAT WAS BROKEN: A CLEARLY CAPABLE PLAYER WAS ARTIFICIALLY KEPT FROM SUCCEEDING IN THE FORMAT. I fear strike CMs may end up having the same issue. We'll see. 

I taught raids myself on druid. W1,3,4. I got 146 LI before I joined my first training guild. Weird.

[Krzysztof.5973]

6 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

If you agree with this point, it shows why the game mode was dead: Anet shouldn't be wasting valuable resources on content only a fraction of the player base wants to play

I do agree. But I also think that first 5 wings are the best content in this game. 

6 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

A legendary armor based in IB saga strikes would never be as prestigious as envoy because it doesn't require the same effort, but it would still be a good gesture for casuals who don't want to raid.

Casuals who don't want to raid have 2 other avenues of acquiring it. Casuals do not deserve legendary armor from raids if they do not raid. 

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

9 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

But if all the groups available are clears and you ping in a community or LFG for trainings and no one responds during your play time windows, what are you supposed to do? 

RTI/RA, Hardstuck, Crossroads Inn, plently of training runs organized by them, I see a good chunk of training runs advertised in the LFG of these Discords as well. 

[Firebeard.1746]

2 hours ago, Baseleader.4128 said:

You must have been in a pretty remarkable situation timewise, because I've been in 2 (EU) raid training discords and they really offer a lot of trainings on a variety of different moments. There definitely IS gatekeeping in raids/strikes CMs and it can be tricky to navigate and frustrating at times but it's certainly very much possible to start raiding without a guardian angel. I came back after a 4y break a couple of months ago and learned the w5-7 raids purely through LFG with non-kp and training runs.

As I said, seeing a lot of 50KP groups can be a little frustrating but it's also entirely normal to me. Experienced raiders who are about to do Dhuum for the 30th time don't want to wipe for 2h every time teaching new people the mechanics. Sometimes I join chill, non kp groups and enjoy myself but I also often don't have endless amounts of time and look for experienced groups because I just want a fast clear. 

In an ideal world you could just write "experienced" and only people who actually know their role well would join and you'd have high success rates but sadly people just lie to their teeth en masse and people who have no clue what they're doing join the run and fail. Only in sth like the HS discord does that really work cause there's an element of social consequences. So the alternative is risk limitation with kp.

 

I very much disagree with the idea  of raids being toxic. The gatekeeping element is present but that to me is not toxicity at all. If you dont join a 50kp group when you dont have 50kp, there is no "toxicity" at all. Generally if people feel like the run isnt going anywhere they'll leave, but rarely do people really start arguing or calling eachother names. People also falsely have the idea that if you dont bring the absolute ultimate build and dps rotation that you'll get kicked. Nothing is further from the truth. As long as you don't ge below an abslute bottom of performance, people dont care. You often see 3 scourges in a group, 1 doing 30k, 1 27k and 1 22k. The truth is that the 22k is performing quite poorly but if you dont drop below like 19k, people just dont care.

I'm in NA. The communities in EU and NA are completely different. 

 

I've had debates about kp in the past and casuals and raiders are both right. I rarely do training runs. But i'll join from time to time. Training is a herculean amount of effort and i don't have the time to do it. 

 

That being said people who can't raid because they can't find groups aren't wrong either. The worst thing about training runs is you're likely training with other new players and If they're bad, you're artificially kept from progressing, your skill be damned. So even if you can find groups, you're basically put through a meat grinder over and over and i don't blame anyone who can't take it. It's an awful experience all around, getting into raids. 

 

Sanest thing is a static that trains you, but 99% of statics want exp players. Enter my friend who trained me and used me in his static.

[Firebeard.1746]

18 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

RTI/RA, Hardstuck, Crossroads Inn, plently of training runs organized by them, I see a good chunk of training runs advertised in the LFG of these Discords as well. 

At the time I was playing when I was new, things were a deadzone, if I pinged, there was normally not interest on the communities I interacted with. That was actually why my static worked: it was at the same dead time period in NA. 

The raiding population actually feels like it increased since, but training, even when you can raid train, can still feel like gating if your squads are random. The best recommendation I have for people struggling is to try to build a static, and if you're lucky you'll get an exp player to help lead. The issue we saw a few months in though was people started just running with Exp groups and the RL didn't feel like recruiting again so it just kind of died, but lucky for me, I had the KP I needed to move on. Really the community in GW2 just doesn't feel built for raiding when I type that. 

[Baseleader.4128]

3 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Really the community in GW2 just doesn't feel built for raiding when I type that. 

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

 

[Shaogin.2679]

Honestly I have been raiding since the content released. I play in NA at all sorts of random times of the day and night, and I rarely ran into issues finding a group. I would normally go online and learn as much as I could about the wing or encounter, and then I would either join a training/semi-casual run or I would create my own. Later on when I started hosting my own raids more often I would invite people from lfg to join my Discord and if they wanted to stick around, we would fill the group from Discord first and then lfg the rest. Rinse and repeat this quite a few times and it got to the point where we would always fill from the Discord and didn't need lfg. Made some new friends along the way and still play with some of them to this day. Point is, if you really want to raid, nothing is stopping you. Your experience will be as good or bad as you allow it to be. People are being so over-dramatic here.

[Firebeard.1746]

1 minute ago, Baseleader.4128 said:

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

 

If people find jumping into EXP groups more valuable than playing with people they actually know in their guilds/discords, then raiding isn't fulfilling the purpose it generally has in MMOs; It's supposed to be a community building thing, that behavior of playing with randos over people you know is contrary to that purpose. In contrast, in my WoW guild we haven't passed normal, but I'm already getting mythic-level items from mythic+ dungeons, and I know I could easily PuG raid heroic if I wanted to, but to me, it's a better experience playing with people I know, even if I'm not getting as far. Pretty stark contrast to how alot of GW2 raiders behave. 

[Firebeard.1746]

3 minutes ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

Honestly I have been raiding since the content released. I play in NA at all sorts of random times of the day and night, and I rarely ran into issues finding a group. I would normally go online and learn as much as I could about the wing or encounter, and then I would either join a training/semi-casual run or I would create my own. Later on when I started hosting my own raids more often I would invite people from lfg to join my Discord and if they wanted to stick around, we would fill the group from Discord first and then lfg the rest. Rinse and repeat this quite a few times and it got to the point where we would always fill from the Discord and didn't need lfg. Made some new friends along the way and still play with some of them to this day. Point is, if you really want to raid, nothing is stopping you. Your experience will be as good or bad as you allow it to be. People are being so over-dramatic here.

I raid at the same times now as an EXP player. This isn't inconsistent with what you're saying. YOu trained when they released. YOu didn't have to find training groups at the same time I did. 

[Baseleader.4128]

4 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

If people find jumping into EXP groups more valuable than playing with people they actually know in their guilds/discords, then raiding isn't fulfilling the purpose it generally has in MMOs; It's supposed to be a community building thing, that behavior of playing with randos over people you know is contrary to that purpose

Interesting you say this, because I've always heard the opposite is true in NA. That the LFG isnt always the best of places because almost everyone uses statics in discords or whatever.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

24 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

At the time I was playing when I was new, things were a deadzone, if I pinged, there was normally not interest on the communities I interacted with. That was actually why my static worked: it was at the same dead time period in NA. 

As far as I know we are not talking about the past. 

26 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

 Really the community in GW2 just doesn't feel built for raiding when I type that. 

People going for their weekly clears instead of teaching others how to raid doesn't mean the community isn't built for raiding. People are not required to make squads for training. Many people don't want to spend hours on a single Raid wing training people when they could just clear all wings in a few hours.

[Firebeard.1746]

8 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

48 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

At the time I was playing when I was new, things were a deadzone, if I pinged, there was normally not interest on the communities I interacted with. That was actually why my static worked: it was at the same dead time period in NA. 

As far as I know we are not talking about the past. 

really? This bolded part doesn't sound like it's in the past?

 

8 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

People going for their weekly clears instead of teaching others how to raid doesn't mean the community isn't built for raiding. People are not required to make squads for training. Many people don't want to spend hours on a single Raid wing training people when they could just clear all wings in a few hours.

And I've agreed with this point. But I stand somewhere no one else does: everyone is right and that's why it's broken. And I'm merely pointing out that outside of discords, raiding isn't doing what it's supposed to. I make a concerted effort to play with the NA raid discord these days, but I could have PuG exp raided if I wanted to and many players do. But as soon as you're playing with strangers ,it's about being mechanical and filling roles more than building community and that's the issue, that people are choosing that over playing with people they know or communities they normally interact with. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

8 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

really? This bolded part doesn't sound like it's in the past?

But does it matter what was in the past? I mentioned a couple of active Discords dedicated to Raid Training with people advertising runs, including training runs. 

[The Boz.2038]

3 hours ago, DirtyDan.4759 said:

I taught raids myself on druid. W1,3,4. I got 146 LI before I joined my first training guild. Weird.

This is mega-weird, since druid is tasked with most of the mechanics on 1, 3, 4... Nice.

[Firebeard.1746]

30 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

But does it matter what was in the past? I mentioned a couple of active Discords dedicated to Raid Training with people advertising runs, including training runs. 

Well I was talking about my experience. I see that you're saying now the help might be there for someone who needs it now. But given that exp players were telling me I should have been able to find groups but couldn't, I wouldn't doubt that for whatever reason a player is struggling to find groups. Communities exist, but their members don't always respond at everyone's beck and call and I would believe someone saying they're falling through the cracks given my experience. 

I feel like for some reason, the PVE experience starts breaking down at higher modes of play and it starts getting very difficult to break into it and anet needs to fix that issue. I imagine raiders will do the strike CMs, but casual players who like strikes won't graduate or may feel frustrated when they try to get up to CMs. I could blame this on a lot of things, but I feel like if they had in-game systems that made teaching a newer player as an exp player more natural, things would go better. The problem with the training run paradigm is you get held accountable for  other player's mistakes so you can't graduate even if you want to and are fully capable. And then the question becomes: what do we do with players who don't get out of training runs? Like they're literally the reason all the groups wipe? 

We probably wouldn't want them to keep trying to train, but we would want something they can do that's fun. And it should feel rewarding to them because it's a game after all, not a freaking job. People don't need a video game to tell them they suck IRL. 

Edited June 16, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[The Boz.2038]

11 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Communities exist, but their members don't always respond at everyone's beck and call and I would believe someone saying they're falling through the cracks given my experience. 

This vague complaining is getting old. What does it mean to not respond? At the time of writing, which is early morning Friday in EU, there is a W2 training in LFG, and a no-KP Aetherblade CM run, and on a few of the discords I see about a dozen training runs for W1-4 within the next ~week. Do those count, or are they just wrong? What availability and rapidity of response could possibly negate the "don't always respond"? Is there ever a moment when there are permitted to be no newbie-friendly runs ran for free by experienced players out of the goodness of their hearts, so that the statement "there's no runs anywhere" couldn't be said?

11 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I imagine raiders will do the strike CMs, but casual players who like strikes won't graduate or may feel frustrated when they try to get up to CMs.

If casual players can do the strikes, I'd imagine they have what it takes to learn how to do the CMs through practice, trial and error, without external guides or videos or teachers. What is the issue here?

11 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

And then the question becomes: what do we do with players who don't get out of training runs? Like they're literally the reason all the groups wipe? 

This sounds rather elitist, doesn't it?

[Shaogin.2679]

13 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I raid at the same times now as an EXP player. This isn't inconsistent with what you're saying. YOu trained when they released. YOu didn't have to find training groups at the same time I did. 

I've been running training groups since they released, even to this day, and the resources I used then to learn the fights are still available today. Some people from my Discord have come and gone, some are still around, sometimes it is all Discord, sometimes it is a mix, and sometimes I do raid training on lfg just for the hell of it. So yes, myself and others are still doing what you say you have issues with.

[Firebeard.1746]

2 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

This sounds rather elitist, doesn't it?

Really? Wanting to give people content they'll succeed at if they aren't succeeding at the current content is elitist? And more elitist than blaming them even if they make good effort to try to get into it? I don't have to argue with all of you. The fact of the matter is, not enough training runs were happening, despite your best efforts. And there was too much community gating. I've already said, everyone is right on this, I don't judge the casuals for being upset, I don't judge exp people for asking for KP. I think these are all symptoms of the problem that need to be solved. Something needs to be done to make the experience of getting newer players into harder content more natural and more beneficial for exp players. And if people don't want to play at that level, they should have other things they can chase. Other mmos have special cosmetics and rewards tied to more casual content. At this point I'm a broken record. But I'm sure there are people failing at training runs repeatedly. and that's one reason they don't do it. And they may very well be struggling with playing at the level GW2 raids require. They're far above and beyond entry level raids in games that have raiding as a main activity and above what 90% of players in other WoW are comfortable doing. I probably could learn to raid mythic if I had the time because of this game. I've been able to push +15s since going back this season. I would only do +10s before and I blame Gw2 for getting me to that point. But getting to that point was hell. Not sure I would have done it without rewards being dangled. And I'm not sure that's a healthy impetus. 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Firebeard.1746

[Krzysztof.5973]

36 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Really? Wanting to give people content they'll succeed at if they aren't succeeding at the current content is elitist? And more elitist than blaming them even if they make good effort to try to get into it? I don't have to argue with all of you. The fact of the matter is, not enough training runs were happening, despite your best efforts. And there was too much community gating. I've already said, everyone is right on this, I don't judge the casuals for being upset, I don't judge exp people for asking for KP. I think these are all symptoms of the problem that need to be solved. Something needs to be done to make the experience of getting newer players into harder content more natural and more beneficial for exp players. And if people don't want to play at that level, they should have other things they can chase. Other mmos have special cosmetics and rewards tied to more casual content. At this point I'm a broken record. But I'm sure there are people failing at training runs repeatedly. and that's one reason they don't do it. And they may very well be struggling with playing at the level GW2 raids require. They're far above and beyond entry level raids in games that have raiding as a main activity and above what 90% of players in other WoW are comfortable doing. I probably could learn to raid mythic if I had the time because of this game. I've been able to push +15s since going back this season. I would only do +10s before and I blame Gw2 for getting me to that point. But getting to that point was hell. Not sure I would have done it without rewards being dangled. And I'm not sure that's a healthy impetus. 

The only wrong decision ANet made was releasing raids before introducing simple 10 man content to the audience of very casual playerbase. The vast majority was just bad at the game in 2015, not good enough to tackle raids. Only some were determined enough to learn and improve on their own. Most just gives up too easily.

[The Boz.2038]

50 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

Something needs to be done to make the experience of getting newer players into harder content more natural and more beneficial for exp players

I can agree on this one: any type of moderate reward for repeated runs after the daily/weekly clear would be most welcome.