Most players don't know how much dps they do

[Kuya.6495]

I've seen a lot of complaints about the meta in the last EoD map and among the complaints is that maybe 3-5 people are doing 10k dps and everyone else is doing below 5k. That made me think about anet's efforts to get players to learn about combo fields and defiance bars. 

 

See, while you can learn about combo fields and defiance bars if you research outside the game, anet realized that this design choice wasn't good for the game in the long run. Most players won't go out of their way to find information about combo fields and cc bars and this limited the scope and complexity of the content Anet could create. So in return Anet has begun to explicitly teach players about these mechanics and in some cases making it mandatory to succeed at the game. 

 

I would like to make the same argument about dps. Right now if you want to know about your dps, you have to go way out of your way to find out. You either gotta download an app or you gotta go to the aerodrome, a place a lot of people don't know exist, and then go to the special force training area, another thing people don't know exists, and finally make a raid squad without other people. That's a lot of effort that isn't directly explained to players to find out about a number that could help them improve. 

 

So my suggestion is, why not make it so the game shows you your dps, and only your dps, to you personally? It could appear in your combat log like it does at the dps golem. It could appear in a separate window. It could only activate during boss encounters and give you a summary of your dps after you beat the boss. Kind of like the pvp stats panel. And depending on how much effort anet wants to put in it. They can add customizing options. They can let players toggle it on and off (i would leave it on by default and let players turn it off if they want- we want to lower the barrier of effort to get this information). They can let players set the time interval in which they get the information.  It's up to Anet how far they want to go with this. 

 

Now to address some points:

1. "Toxicity." This feature would not lead to toxicity since you cannot see other people's dps and they can't see yours. It is information presented only to you much like your hero panel is.  It is meant to encourage self improvement. 

 

2. "No other game does this." That's not an argument against doing this. GW2 is also a game where there is no tank/healer/dps archetype as a default. Is that bad? Anet can use this to set itself apart.

 

3. "Why is this information necessary?" The hero panel already gives you information about your attributes.  Players can ignore this information or they can use it. But using the hero panel lets players know that if they equip toughness equipment, their toughness number in the hero panel goes up and players understand how to improve this number. Giving players access to dps also lets them see a stat, and then find out how to improve it.

 

4. "If you can only see your dps, you have no context about how to improve it." But if you know how much dps you do, this allows the community to do the rest of the work. If you know your dps, you can communicate in guild chat what your dps is and ask how to improve it. Your guild mates can then advise you how to improve this number and then you test to see if your numbers grow.  The context is provided by the community when the player asks how to improve their dps numbers which are now fully visible to them like any other stat in the hero panel. 

 

5.  "Dps isn't just about your stats and rotations. It's also about boons". Sure, but that's an argument for why anet needs to add content that explains to players what boons are and what they do (and also food buffs while we're at it). It's not an argument against a dps meter. It's an argument for adding tutorials on boons.

 

6. "I don't want to know what my dps is." That's fine. I'm advocating to make it optional. You can turn it off or on. 

[Vilin.8056]

I like your suggestion, but I'm afraid this only solves half the problem.

 

1. DPS can be group composition dependent, it is possible that your character can make 10k with a good group support around, but only make 5k on the other.

 

2. The skill gap is struck with the core design, where the beginner experience begins with lv1-79 of purely pursuing character level and gear level, then suddenly 180 into synergies, dodge and skill rotations once hitting level 80.

 

3. A vast majority of players simply can't handle that much information, they are too casual, too old of age, and even less motivated to dive into deep mechanics. Feeding them more information isn't going to help.

[Isshagal.3016]

Half a solution is better than no solution.

I'd love to have this in the game, just to see if other rotation or quick rune/sigil/trait switch performs better.

And i don't want to download every updated app for it. I don't want to always go and test things on golem.

That mobs on map im on? I can check during normal play.

Random champ or paired elite map enemies? Next time i'll try different.

[Custodio.6134]

tbh: that feature is already half implemented. 
ever heard of special forces training area? the golem in there literally outputs your dps into your chat, and you can just open a private raid squad to go in and test your rotation. even with the option to enable support buffs etc to simulate a raid setup. 

yes, you cannot track your damage outside of there without third-party addons, BUT it´s not like you have ZERO options to check if you deal damage

[Lysico.4906]

Good.  Dps meters are the bane of the player base

[bal.4591]

I'ts a little bit complicated. Following your example, I think there's room for a debate.

As my experience in other MMORPGs, I think more important than the number itself is an simple indicator to the player telling if your damage is below from the required for that content, just the minimum for, or far more. It could be just a simple color, 5k red is bad, 5k damage yellow is average, 5k green is a lot.

1 hour ago, Vilin.8056 said:

3. A vast majority of players simply can't handle that much information, they are too casual, too old of age, and even less motivated to dive into deep mechanics. Feeding them more information isn't going to help.

 

And thats true. I'm reallly don't care about anything lol. I spent 5 minutes looking for a longbow ranger build in 1012 and never changed it. At least my gear is my crafted exotic berserker. It's been a lot of years haha. I just made the mandatory... strikes was it? from Icebrood saga for the story. back in vanilla cleared all dungeons and paths one time and thats it. I only play for the map completion and story.

[Labjax.2465]

I don't think DPS is a very helpful metric on its own. Between boons and other factors, like mob scaling and dealing with mechanics properly, your DPS could fluctuate wildly and it might be hard to understand why if you don't already possess knowledge of other factors from being a min-max type player. As it is, idk if it happens in this game with those who use 3rd party addons, but people becoming obsessed with chart topping to the point they neglect important things in a fight is a real problem in some games. You can imagine how many people, for example, would stop rezzing downed players around them because it's tanking their DPS... even tho doing so may be a net DPS gain for the group. After all, the highest DPS potential will tend to be the more glassy ones.

DPS is mainly important as a metric relating to controlled raid environments during burn phases when up against DPS checks, IME. If you think about how most of the open world events are, they are sheer chaos by comparison.

But I could see an argument for a DPS meter specifically in instanced raids, so people don't have to rely on 3rd party addons.

I mean, one thing to keep in mind is DPS can be low for more than one reason... rotation, build, gear, etc., and those last two have little to do with skill. Some people do tankier builds in open world so they can survive out there and that's clearly going to be a DPS hit. I don't think it makes sense to tempt them with comparing themselves to others when they aren't built for group optimization to begin with.

[fixit.7189]

https://snowcrows.com/builds/elementalist/weaver/condition-weaver

Look at this rotation and i ask, just how many people can actually memorize this to be a 'good dps': this isn't the only build that requires such an intense amount of button presses either. and people are surprised people under perform with rotations like this? it's absurb to think an average player can pull this all off while doing mechanics too...i know i can't. lastly, i am willing to bet most players don't even know about arcdps let alone use it. i used to but i gave up b/c it's a pita to update it every friggin patch so i got rid of it. blah.

Edited March 6, 2022 by fixit.7189

[Hollowhisper.1093]

"Most players don't know how much dps they do"

 

Yeah and most of them don't seem to care and that may actually be a good thing.

[Gibson.4036]

Well, if nothing else you’ve increased the number of players who are aware of the aero dome by one.

 

[Cyninja.2954]

27 minutes ago, fixit.7189 said:

https://snowcrows.com/builds/elementalist/weaver/condition-weaver

Look at this rotation and i ask, just how many people can actually memorize this to be a 'good dps': this isn't the only build that requires such an intense amount of button presses either. and people are surprised people under perform with rotations like this? it's absurb to think an average player can pull this all off while doing mechanics too...i know i can't. lastly, i am willing to bet most players don't even know about arcdps let alone use it. i used to but i gave up b/c it's a pita to update it every friggin patch so i got rid of it. blah.

 

What luck then that no average player has to run such a build anywhere or ever. Not to mention that condition weaver is not run in nearly any content, but I am sure you knew that.

There are very minor improvements to a players performance at the top end, and no content in this games requires near that performance. That's for players who like to absolutely maximize their gameplay.

Many builds can be altered with little loss to performance while significantly reducing the complexity of the rotation. Don't believe me? Watch Muru's rotation guides on youtube to see how little output improves with each step. Almost every class has simplified rotation builds most of which yield 30k+ dps results with boons. Some are even pure autoattack builds.

Players under-perform because they are on bad builds, bad gear combinations and incorrect weapon sets to begin with. It has nothing to do with running complex 30 or 40 step rotations (and to even insinuate this is just hilarious misinformation).

Players who are clueless about to this should really NOT be giving advice to others. Do your own research first, THEN complain and try not to just randomly pick some snowcrows meta build which you are clueless about in some vein attempt of an argument.

Even metabattle had low intensity open world builds, and will have some again up to date once the expansion has settled, for every player to use and none of them were this complex, ever.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Gibson.4036]

What would be a reasonable dps threshold to be considered contributing in a meta, say?

[Telgum.6071]

People don't understand these kinds of complains and then will talk about elitism and stuff like that.

I've participated in five full Dragon's End meta. Lost the first three with casual groups, the last two I had to join two raid squads that would ask for LI, hide tag in Dragon's End and wait for everyone to join in while the 'casuals' would slowly leave the map.

So while I think the final boss has a stupid OP combo (RNG attack chain + long invulnerability attack), I like having metas this hard, though I wish it wasn't so kittening long. And due to this, I think the average GW2 player should put some effort in collaborating with content clearing. Collaborating is not pressing 11111 and be done with it, is following some of the directions given by this new expansion 'tutorial'.

- Dodge, so people won't waste time resurrecting you.

- CC, so we can kill the boss faster / prevent an attack.

- Do some minimal rotations, either for improved damage through combo chains or to get some nice effects by blasting fields.

It really doesn't matter if you deal just 10k of damage, for open world stuff or even strikes, that's more than enough. Just know the basics to ensure you can follow the rest of the players, instead pulling then. And if you don't know the basics, just ask, community is full of people willing to land a hand.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Telgum.6071
Typo

[ASP.8093]

33 minutes ago, fixit.7189 said:

https://snowcrows.com/builds/elementalist/weaver/condition-weaver

Look at this rotation and i ask, just how many people can actually memorize this to be a 'good dps': this isn't the only build that requires such an intense amount of button presses either. and people are surprised people under perform with rotations like this? it's absurb to think an average player can pull this all off while doing mechanics too...i know i can't. lastly, i am willing to bet most players don't even know about arcdps let alone use it. i used to but i gave up b/c it's a pita to update it every friggin patch so i got rid of it. blah.

To be fair, there is also stuff like this…

A lot of pretty-good DPS builds rely more on gear stats and trait interactions than perfect skill sequencing. (Some of those builds are still deeply unsuited to open-world metas because they rely on other people's perfect buff output, though.)

[Cyninja.2954]

12 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

What would be a reasonable dps threshold to be considered contributing in a meta, say?

 

That's a rather difficult question to answer due to scaling. In general, most open world metas are designed with I'd assume 5k dps per player in mind timer wise.

 

Most metas have a minimum amount of players, most often 5-10, which they will not scale below and a maximum scaling where they cap and any additional player on top does not increase the scaling. Which leads to situations where a boss eventually just melts because it stopped scaling.

 

Now add on top that boons will double and triple the dps output of players in group if provided, things get iffy.

 

To carry your own weight, 5k dps is sufficient, but that will not account for players who do less, of which there are many. 10k dps is a solid intermediate, but simple builds like condi shortbow souldbeast will achieve this value with autoattacks only, as will for example power scarpper. 15k dps is a good baseline. Adjust all those numbers depending on how many offensive boons you have present to 7.5k baseline, 15k intermediate and around 20k good.

 

1 thing to remember: as player counts increase, the performance on some players PC will drop. Leading to weaker performance too. If someone suffers from such an issue (which is fine, not everyone can run this game on omega high quality), it is advisable to switch to a less active build.

 

TL;DR:

For most metas, aiming to reach 5-10k dps is fine. This can be achieved on nearly all classes with very simplistic builds, some times even pure auto attack setups.

[ASP.8093]

2 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

[…] I like having metas this hard, though I wish it wasn't so kittening long.

I do think one of the toughest things about it is that it takes a long time. People wipe in Raids and Fractals all the time. And then they get up on that horse and go again, usually with the same group. Quite a few of the game's best PVE players have a talent for correcting less experienced people's mistakes so they can do better on the retry. Failure still stings, but you can iterate pretty quickly and a determined group can improve *a lot* over the course of just an hour.

In contrast, with the EoD final boss meta I could probably do it twice a day if I absolutely clear my schedule (maybe thrice on a weekend), and I'm likely to be kinda tired by the second attempt. Also, the pre-events are honestly kinda boring? All the challenging mechanics and positional whiplash are really concentrated in that one final night-phase battle. The map is pretty mundane/easy otherwise.

[Gibson.4036]

11 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

That's a rather difficult question to answer due to scaling. In general, most open world metas are designed with I'd assume 5k dps per player in mind timer wise.

 

Most metas have a minimum amount of players, most often 5-10, which they will not scale below and a maximum scaling where they cap and any additional player on top does not increase the scaling. Which leads to situations where a boss eventually just melts because it stopped scaling.

 

Now add on top that boons will double and triple the dps output of players in group if provided, things get iffy.

 

To carry your own weight, 5k dps is sufficient, but that will not account for players who do less, of which there are many. 10k dps is a solid intermediate, but simple builds like condi shortbow souldbeast will achieve this value with autoattacks only, as will for example power scarpper. 15k dps is a good baseline. Adjust all those numbers depending on how many offensive boons you have present to 7.5k baseline, 15k intermediate and around 20k good.

 

1 thing to remember: as player counts increase, the performance on some players PC will drop. Leading to weaker performance too. If someone suffers from such an issue (which is fine, not everyone can run this game on omega high quality), it is advisable to switch to a less active build.

 

TL;DR:

For most metas, aiming to reach 5-10k dps is fine. This can be achieved on nearly all classes with very simplistic builds, some times even pure auto attack setups.

Thanks for the thoughtful answer.

I’m not a buildcrafter, so tend to run open world builds the community recognizes as good. I try to learn the presented skill priorities (not necessarily true rotations). I have no idea what any of my characters dps is though, just a sense of which ones kill things faster when I’m solo.

If I take them to the aero dome out of curiosity you’ve helped me get an idea of what to look for.

[Cyninja.2954]

5 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Thanks for the thoughtful answer.

I’m not a buildcrafter, so tend to run open world builds the community recognizes as good. I try to learn the presented skill priorities (not necessarily true rotations). I have no idea what any of my characters dps is though, just a sense of which ones kill things faster when I’m solo.

If I take them to the aero dome out of curiosity you’ve helped me get an idea of what to look for.

 

After you setup your golem and yourself in the aerodrome (usual conditions, usual boons, usual enhancements, tbh just go all boons and all enhancements and leave out food to compensate), if you can get to 20-25k conistent dps, you are fine for any and all open world content by a mile. That's more than sufficient for strikes and easy raid content in beginner/intermediate groups too.

 

Sounds like a lot but trust me, once you have 25 might, fury, quickness and alacrity, just auto attacking on the correct weapon set will already get you above 10k-15k on all classes. Just find a low intensity build you enjoy and run with that.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Tukaram.8256]

3 hours ago, Custodio.6134 said:

ever heard of special forces training area?

Nope.

1 hour ago, Hollowhisper.1093 said:

"Most players don't know how much dps they do"

Yeah and most of them don't seem to care and that may actually be a good thing.

Yep.

I have no idea what my DPS is.  I certainly do not care what anyone else's is. If it was provided in my hero panel I would look, but if ANet does not think it is important enough to show us... I really cannot be bothered. 

[Sevens.9452]

here's one better to help improve dps, some sort of prompt telling them what skill to click for good dps, then bind that promt to spacebar, that'll guarantee higher dps from the community

example:

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Sevens.9452

[Doctor Hide.6345]

Do most people even care about their own dps? I know for most games people that actually run raids or high end dungeons(fractals) care about it since the numbers matter before enrage timers kick in and wipe the party. But for here and open world? I don't know of many who even care really. As long as they live is generally the metric some live by, so even if there was a personal one. How many would actually use it?

[Rokeb.3815]

As a completely casual player - seeing your own DPS is actually quite enlightening. 

It lets you see whether or not all the button mashing you are doing is actually working well.

 

The combat log is awful.  It really doesn't tell me whether or not using a different weapon or set of traits has made much difference. It helps you learn little things like - 'hey this combo really makes a big difference!' 

 

It's also really handy when you are in a big group event - say a world boss.  There is so much visual spam and clutter it's often impossible to tell where the boss actually is and whether or not my attacks are actually hitting it!

Having arcDPS up on the screen gives me a quick way to see if I am actually hitting something worthwhile or not.

Oh look - it's dropped to zero! Hmm the boss is invuln mode and I have to go do a mechanic of some kind! 

 

All this stems from the fact that the combat log is completely worthless.  All I really need is a quick way to see damage coming in (which I can thanks to my health bar) and damage going out.  You can call it what you want - but despite that fact that 'doing damage to monsters' is a huge part of this game, it's quite tough to see how effective you are - especially in any kind of group environment. 

[Doctor Hide.6345]

9 minutes ago, Rokeb.3815 said:

As a completely casual player - seeing your own DPS is actually quite enlightening. 

It lets you see whether or not all the button mashing you are doing is actually working well.

 

The combat log is awful.  It really doesn't tell me whether or not using a different weapon or set of traits has made much difference. It helps you learn little things like - 'hey this combo really makes a big difference!' 

 

It's also really handy when you are in a big group event - say a world boss.  There is so much visual spam and clutter it's often impossible to tell where the boss actually is and whether or not my attacks are actually hitting it!

Having arcDPS up on the screen gives me a quick way to see if I am actually hitting something worthwhile or not.

Oh look - it's dropped to zero! Hmm the boss is invuln mode and I have to go do a mechanic of some kind! 

 

All this stems from the fact that the combat log is completely worthless.  All I really need is a quick way to see damage coming in (which I can thanks to my health bar) and damage going out.  You can call it what you want - but despite that fact that 'doing damage to monsters' is a huge part of this game, it's quite tough to see how effective you are - especially in any kind of group environment. 

 

Here is my thing though. I get it that is your personal take, but I have been in so many Guilds in this game with tons of people who don't care about the numbers. As long as they are seeing something on the screen and living, that is all that matters to them. I am the same way of sorts. I couldn't care less about my actual numbers because frankly I fudging hate the rotations in this game. They are not fun for me, so while I do follow the some of the metabattle builds and such. I generally don't bother with the rotations or damage number side. I know I am not the only who one who does this. Hell, I have known tons of Guildies who build for toughness instead.(Not to say I don't care about personal performance in other games. I just see causal open world stuff as just that. Casual where numbers shouldn't matter that much. Other games for me is where I actually care more because no stupid spammy rotations.)

 

Like I said, I am just wondering how many still actually care about that outside the raiders and high end fractals.

[fixit.7189]

6 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Players who are clueless about to this should really NOT be giving advice to others. Do your own research first, THEN complain and try not to just randomly pick some snowcrows meta build which you are clueless about in some vein attempt of an argument.

😞

thanks for commenting and have a nice day.

Edited March 7, 2022 by fixit.7189

[LSD.4673]

4 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

What would be a reasonable dps threshold to be considered contributing in a meta, say?

"More DPS than holding down 1" is the answer. I'd say 70% of the playerbase struggles there.