Most players don't know how much dps they do

[Gibson.4036]

1 minute ago, LSD.4673 said:

"More DPS than holding down 1" is the answer. I'd say 70% of the playerbase struggles there.

Well, for that, no one needs a dps meter. 😄

This idea that the majority of players only ever auto attacks feels more like forum repetition than truth, though.

Then again, I’m constantly surprised by how many people get downed by Tarnished Traitor after every single Octovine run. Maybe I’m just hopelessly naive.

[Labjax.2465]

6 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Well, for that, no one needs a dps meter. 😄

This idea that the majority of players only ever auto attacks feels more like forum repetition than truth, though.

Then again, I’m constantly surprised by how many people get downed by Tarnished Traitor after every single Octovine run. Maybe I’m just hopelessly naive.

To be fair to people, Tarnished Traitor: 1) is usually done with a mass mob of players, which means harder to see the circles and some are prob lagging hard from the mass of ppl; 2) the circles cover quite a lot of ground so if you're melee, gl finding a safe spot to get to in that blue mass; 3) have a tiny window to avoid them through dodge if you don't move out of them; 4) ppl will get rezzed by ranged after anyway, so they don't need to care

Also, it's tricksy, cause of that final drop after Tarnished Traitor is downed. "Oh, I can let me guard down now," down goes half the blob lol.

Personally, I've gotten more wary about it, but I still get downed by it occasionally cause by that point, I'm just happy to have Octo dead and want to chill for a minute, so I'm not exactly bringing my A game.

[LSD.4673]

7 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Well, for that, no one needs a dps meter. 😄

This idea that the majority of players only ever auto attacks feels more like forum repetition than truth, though.

Then again, I’m constantly surprised by how many people get downed by Tarnished Traitor after every single Octovine run. Maybe I’m just hopelessly naive.

The AB afterboss megawipe, the "use cc!" mapchat spam while the blue bar never moves, the same people getting downed on bounty bosses with the "stand in the magic circle to not die of ley death-stacks", the masses of people who just stand there attacking during invuln phases...

It's a real problem. Maybe they're not just pressing 1 -- maybe they're hitting all their keys off cooldown like a piano player. But whatever they're doing, it's very rarely damage.

[Gibson.4036]

Just now, Labjax.2465 said:

To be fair to people, Tarnished Traitor: 1) is usually done with a mass mob of players, which means harder to see the circles and some are prob lagging hard from the mass of ppl; 2) the circles cover quite a lot of ground so if you're melee, gl finding a safe spot to get to in that blue mass; 3) have a tiny window to avoid them through dodge if you don't move out of them; 4) ppl will get rezzed by ranged after anyway, so they don't need to care

Also, it's tricksy, cause of that final drop after Tarnished Traitor is downed. "Oh, I can let me guard down now," down goes half the blob lol.

Personally, I've gotten more wary about it, but I still get downed by it occasionally cause by that point, I'm just happy to have Octo dead and want to chill for a minute, so I'm not exactly bringing my A game.

Ah, good points.

I’ve always been bewildered by the sheer number of people who go down, but your explanations make sense.

[Gibson.4036]

1 minute ago, LSD.4673 said:

The AB afterboss megawipe, the "use cc!" mapchat spam while the blue bar never moves, the same people getting downed on bounty bosses with the "stand in the magic circle to not die of ley death-stacks", the masses of people who just stand there attacking during invuln phases...

It's a real problem. Maybe they're not just pressing 1 -- maybe they're hitting all their keys off cooldown like a piano player. But whatever they're doing, it's very rarely damage.

All of those make a lot more sense to me than the majority only autoattack. It took me a couple bounties to figure out the key line stacks myself. It’s a bit counter-intuitive that to clear the glowy orb that is obviously doing a ton of damage you have to go stand by more glowy orbs. I had the hardest time looking it up even because I didn’t know the right words to search in the wiki.

My favorite moment of general player obliviousness is when people all take the port on HP runs even though the commander has explained not to unless you have poison mastery and half the train instantly dies.

There are plenty of times I have shouted “I have no idea what just happened!” as I lay downed in this game, though. Sometimes it really isn’t clear in the midst of the flashing effects and overlapping ground indicators what is going on unless someone explains it or you read a good guide.

[Tukaram.8256]

40 minutes ago, LSD.4673 said:

"More DPS than holding down 1" is the answer. I'd say 70% of the playerbase struggles there.

Why would anyone hold down "1".  The number 1 skill auto attacks.  They should hold down 2 or 3 ha ha

 

4 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

What would be a reasonable dps threshold to be considered contributing in a meta, say?

As long as the critter dies - and I do not - then my DPS is ok. 😎

[DanAlcedo.3281]

I remember when we had a tool to look at other people's gear. 

One Commander had to get out the vodka because it was so depressing. 

 

Knowing what button to press is one thing but the gear people are using...

We had people who were actively trying but could not get over 3k dps while having 25might, fury, quickness and alac. 

 

 

[Cynder.2509]

11 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

I've seen a lot of complaints about the meta in the last EoD map and among the complaints is that maybe 3-5 people are doing 10k dps and everyone else is doing below 5k. That made me think about anet's efforts to get players to learn about combo fields and defiance bars. 

 

See, while you can learn about combo fields and defiance bars if you research outside the game, anet realized that this design choice wasn't good for the game in the long run. Most players won't go out of their way to find information about combo fields and cc bars and this limited the scope and complexity of the content Anet could create. So in return Anet has begun to explicitly teach players about these mechanics and in some cases making it mandatory to succeed at the game. 

 

I would like to make the same argument about dps. Right now if you want to know about your dps, you have to go way out of your way to find out. You either gotta download an app or you gotta go to the aerodrome, a place a lot of people don't know exist, and then go to the special force training area, another thing people don't know exists, and finally make a raid squad without other people. That's a lot of effort that isn't directly explained to players to find out about a number that could help them improve. 

 

So my suggestion is, why not make it so the game shows you your dps, and only your dps, to you personally? It could appear in your combat log like it does at the dps golem. It could appear in a separate window. It could only activate during boss encounters and give you a summary of your dps after you beat the boss. Kind of like the pvp stats panel. And depending on how much effort anet wants to put in it. They can add customizing options. They can let players toggle it on and off (i would leave it on by default and let players turn it off if they want- we want to lower the barrier of effort to get this information). They can let players set the time interval in which they get the information.  It's up to Anet how far they want to go with this. 

 

Now to address some points:

1. "Toxicity." This feature would not lead to toxicity since you cannot see other people's dps and they can't see yours. It is information presented only to you much like your hero panel is.  It is meant to encourage self improvement. 

 

2. "No other game does this." That's not an argument against doing this. GW2 is also a game where there is no tank/healer/dps archetype as a default. Is that bad? Anet can use this to set itself apart.

 

3. "Why is this information necessary?" The hero panel already gives you information about your attributes.  Players can ignore this information or they can use it. But using the hero panel lets players know that if they equip toughness equipment, their toughness number in the hero panel goes up and players understand how to improve this number. Giving players access to dps also lets them see a stat, and then find out how to improve it.

 

4. "If you can only see your dps, you have no context about how to improve it." But if you know how much dps you do, this allows the community to do the rest of the work. If you know your dps, you can communicate in guild chat what your dps is and ask how to improve it. Your guild mates can then advise you how to improve this number and then you test to see if your numbers grow.  The context is provided by the community when the player asks how to improve their dps numbers which are now fully visible to them like any other stat in the hero panel. 

 

5.  "Dps isn't just about your stats and rotations. It's also about boons". Sure, but that's an argument for why anet needs to add content that explains to players what boons are and what they do (and also food buffs while we're at it). It's not an argument against a dps meter. It's an argument for adding tutorials on boons.

 

6. "I don't want to know what my dps is." That's fine. I'm advocating to make it optional. You can turn it off or on. 

This is right and all but 10k DPS can be done very easily and is not very high when you look at snowcrows benchmarks. You should at least do 35k dps like expected in most endgame content. If you're barely touching this and screw up rotations then it's a 100% kick from 99% of groups. 

[Hollowhisper.1093]

In order for your DPS to matter you need to stay alive as long as possible so there's the real bottleneck. In more than one meta you also need situational awareness and a grasp of your surroundings. Safe zones, cover, enemy AoE fields, damage telegraphs etc.

 

As an example, many players seem to die in the Echovald Prototype bossfight when he instakills with his heavy slam. So you need to locate the junk piles in advance and move there (while still damaging the boss if possible) so you can take cover accordingly. Otherwise you die and may even need to reset to a waypoint.

 

This applies not to all open world metas and, granted, some players seem to have become accustomed to just stand in the red AoE fields because the damage against the self healing is laughable.

 

Maybe EoD clears this up a bit in that it requires more movement and evasion, especially in Dragon's End where the amount of ground effects is just eye dazzling. The less you die the more time you have to apply damage. If you get better at it, your amount of inflicted damage (so not DPS) increases and you are on a good road there I guess.

[Westenev.5289]

8 hours ago, fixit.7189 said:

https://snowcrows.com/builds/elementalist/weaver/condition-weaver

Look at this rotation and i ask, just how many people can actually memorize this to be a 'good dps': this isn't the only build that requires such an intense amount of button presses either. and people are surprised people under perform with rotations like this? it's absurb to think an average player can pull this all off while doing mechanics too...i know i can't. lastly, i am willing to bet most players don't even know about arcdps let alone use it. i used to but i gave up b/c it's a pita to update it every friggin patch so i got rid of it. blah.

 

The rotation usually looks horrid, and does a poor job explaining why a rotation is the way it is. It's generally best to question why a rotation looks like that, which generally requires class knowledge and a bit of study. Which, I agree, is wholly too much effort when all I really want is a simple but versitile toolkit. 😕

[Tiamat.8254]

I think part of the problem lies with the sheer amount of skill and stat combinations. There is no one button click for best damage based on current held equipment or specs unlocked, likewise for defense, healing etc... But also, maybe having class based quests that teach you in a non-mundane way how to play your class when you reach a threshold might be a good idea as well. Lots of ways to improve this. 

[Custodio.6134]

10 hours ago, Tukaram.8256 said:

Nope.

That's unfortunate, so let me explain. In the aerodrome of lion's arch (where you also access Raids) there is a seperate instance called "special forces training area". There you can spawn different golems (different HP, break bars, hit boxes etc) and apply boons etc to yourself, simulating a raid environment. When you attack the golem, it frequently puts out your DPS into chat, without the need of arcdps. You can enter it even without a full squad, as long as you open a raid squad (which can also be private). 

Note, that enabling all buffs and boons may give you unrealistic results, since you probably won't have access to all of them in a real raid, even more unlikely in open world. 

[Gibson.4036]

5 hours ago, Hollowhisper.1093 said:

 

 

As an example, many players seem to die in the Echovald Prototype bossfight when he instakills with his heavy slam. So you need to locate the junk piles in advance and move there (while still damaging the boss if possible) so you can take cover accordingly. Otherwise you die and may even need to reset to a waypoint.

 

 

I just encountered this one and was part of a large number of players who got it very close to death before it timed out.
 

Hiding behind the piles of Jade tech after the fist slam was pretty clear to me, but it did take people saying it over and over in chat to get some people to do it. And even knowing what you need to do, it can be hard to reach the safe spots.

What I found more difficult was that there is a constant death zone under the boss, so I had trouble finding a position I could melee from on the holosmith I was playing. Then add the frequent, long effect that blows everyone sideways while dropping mines you need to avoid, and I ended up in grenade kit for the rest of the fight. I know, other than the tool belt skill, that meant I was putting out much less damage than if I’d been able to figure out how to use the forge and stay alive.

[ugrakarma.9416]

Ppl bashing playerbase forget how noisy visually gw2 is.

 

The tarnished traitor: the orange circle in ground is near same color of "goldish" tiles of Auric,, pls 50++ ppl around it u cant see nothing.

 

The pile of jade tech: same color as ground, i "learned" to look for red arrow indicating the position, but to see it, i have also to constantly zoom out.

 

 and list going on.

[Sevens.9452]

10 minutes ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

Ppl bashing playerbase forget how noisy visually gw2 is.

 

The tarnished traitor: the orange circle in ground is near same color of "goldish" tiles of Auric,, pls 50++ ppl around it u cant see nothing.

 

The pile of jade tech: same color as ground, i "learned" to look for red arrow indicating the position, but to see it, i have also to constantly zoom out.

 

 and list going on.

sounds like issues the playerbase needs to learn to play, which is what anet is trying to teach with this meta

[Gibson.4036]

2 minutes ago, Sevens.9452 said:

sounds like issues the playerbase needs to learn to play, which is what anet is trying to teach with this meta

It’s only helpful to learn the telegraphs and ground markers if you can actually see them.

I can always see Tarnished Traitors AoE  circles, but that doesn’t mean they’re clear on different specs and different settings.

I also wonder about some of the non-meta events that have more difficult mechanics I’ve run across in EOD. It’s one thing to say, “learn the fight mechanics” for metas and instances you repeat, but events you happen upon while running around the open world don’t have that kind of repetition.

[Sevens.9452]

2 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

It’s only helpful to learn the telegraphs and ground markers if you can actually see them.

I can always see Tarnished Traitors AoE  circles, but that doesn’t mean they’re clear on different specs and different settings.

 

if hundreds of people can do it, so can you

 

 

[Gibson.4036]

4 minutes ago, Sevens.9452 said:

 

if hundreds of people can do it, so can you

 

 

I have no idea how your response has anything to do with what I posted.

We we’re talking about visual noise and indistinct colors, specifically in tarnished traitor and the Echovald prototype, and you say “learn the DE meta”?

Edited March 7, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[LSD.4673]

28 minutes ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

Ppl bashing playerbase forget how noisy visually gw2 is.

 

The tarnished traitor: the orange circle in ground is near same color of "goldish" tiles of Auric,, pls 50++ ppl around it u cant see nothing.

 

The pile of jade tech: same color as ground, i "learned" to look for red arrow indicating the position, but to see it, i have also to constantly zoom out.

 

 and list going on.

The visual style of a paint factory explosion, mixed with the total lack of explanation on how things work, definitely contributes. But for AB, 90% of attendees farm that meta. They've done it countless times. Yet they still die in droves. 

It's like the playerbase is 50% bot, and i'm not just talking about the innumerable map farmers and login scripters.

[AliamRationem.5172]

4 minutes ago, LSD.4673 said:

The visual style of a paint factory explosion, mixed with the total lack of explanation on how things work, definitely contributes. But for AB, 90% of attendees farm that meta. They've done it countless times. Yet they still die in droves. 

It's like the playerbase is 50% bot, and i'm not just talking about the innumerable map farmers and login scripters.

I wish people would stop using this as an example of how "bad" everyone else is.  Do you really not understand that GW2 is the most poorly optimized game in the history of gaming?  Here's me dodging perfectly.  Guess what?  I still probably die 50/50 on tarnished traitor following the octovine because my framerate is a kitten slideshow. 

It has nothing to do with tunnel vision or being terrible at the game.  You just can't dodge what you can't see and I expect that's a thing for a majority of players.  I'm not running on great hardware, but my GTX 1650 is still a mid-range card from 2019 that should be more than capable of producing playable framerates in a game that released in 2012.  Unfortunately, that isn't the case and I expect a majority of players are in the same boat.

 

[danickar.3495]

17 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

3. A vast majority of players simply can't handle that much information, they are too casual, too old of age, and even less motivated to dive into deep mechanics. Feeding them more information isn't going to help.

I just have to say this is one of the most elitist and toxic comments I have read in a long time. 

[LSD.4673]

33 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I wish people would stop using this as an example of how "bad" everyone else is.  Do you really not understand that GW2 is the most poorly optimized game in the history of gaming?  Here's me dodging perfectly.  Guess what?  I still probably die 50/50 on tarnished traitor following the octovine because my framerate is a kitten slideshow. 

It has nothing to do with tunnel vision or being terrible at the game.  You just can't dodge what you can't see and I expect that's a thing for a majority of players.  I'm not running on great hardware, but my GTX 1650 is still a mid-range card from 2019 that should be more than capable of producing playable framerates in a game that released in 2012.  Unfortunately, that isn't the case and I expect a majority of players are in the same boat.

 

I play on an old laptop from 2013. Frame rate isn't the issue; and if it is, lower your settings. 

The issue at heart is the nature of the game: everything eventually succeeds, and as long as you've tagged the big baddie (or shared a boon with some who has), you get the same share of generic loot as everyone else. No incentive, no reason.

 

[Yphex.2136]

53 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I wish people would stop using this as an example of how "bad" everyone else is.  Do you really not understand that GW2 is the most poorly optimized game in the history of gaming?  Here's me dodging perfectly.  Guess what?  I still probably die 50/50 on tarnished traitor following the octovine because my framerate is a kitten slideshow. 

It has nothing to do with tunnel vision or being terrible at the game.  You just can't dodge what you can't see and I expect that's a thing for a majority of players.  I'm not running on great hardware, but my GTX 1650 is still a mid-range card from 2019 that should be more than capable of producing playable framerates in a game that released in 2012.  Unfortunately, that isn't the case and I expect a majority of players are in the same boat.

 

Set the "character model limit" to low or lowest, brought my game up from barely 30 fps to consistently over 60fps in raid situation. Also clears up a lot of clutter. Finding that setting has been an absolute game changer for me.

[AliamRationem.5172]

5 minutes ago, LSD.4673 said:

I play on an old laptop from 2013. Frame rate isn't the issue; and if it is, lower your settings. 

The issue at heart is the nature of the game: everything eventually succeeds, and as long as you've tagged the big baddie (or shared a boon with some who has), you get the same share of generic loot as everyone else. No incentive, no reason.

 

Ah, so I'm not bad I just need to turn down my settings.  Glad we cleared that up.

[The Boz.2038]

15 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

That's a rather difficult question to answer due to scaling. In general, most open world metas are designed with I'd assume 5k dps per player in mind timer wise.

I guarantee you that DE meta is not designed for ~5k/player.