Most players don't know how much dps they do

[Tails.9372]

20 minutes ago, Ithilwen.1529 said:

How can I create a raid squad of one? I tried to test my DPS and couldn't enter the training area.

It's in the upper left corner of your screen.

[Alcatraznc.3869]

The issue isnt really the DPS itself because in the end of the day the DPS is a reflection of your gear, build and rotation.

 

Your average GW2 player doesnt know how to properly gear and select the good stats. A lot of player are still using full soldier because it allow them to reduce the amount of one shot they get for not playing properly.  And this is an issue. I am not going to talk about OW and story because it is irrelevant, you can win by just pressing 1 but in content where stats matters which is pretty much anything that isnt OW, they are not going to be accepted because they dont really bring any value to the team.

 

And then we have to talk about weapons. How many player for instance play power engineer with double pistol ? Again, the whole "I play what I want" work in OW/story but anywhere else you are dragging your team down. If you want to play power engineer then use a rifle. You may not like it but this is better than P/P. You may complain that you are free to play whatever you want, but the group is also free to replace you with someone else that fit their criteria. 

 

Now talking about builds, these may varies a lot between OW and raid/fractal. In OW you want a mix of survivability and damage because you must assume you will have to do everything by yourself. So you will trade some damage for utility. In raids/fractal or strike for instance, you play a defined role so you put everything into the role. If you're a main DPS, you put everything into damage, if you're a DPS support, you put both support skill and damage skill. If you're healer you put everything into healing/cleanse/boons.... Guides on how to build X such as Vallun's guide on YT are not necessarily bad however they are not optimized for every type of content because well, it IS a multi purpose build so it's trying to cover everything without really speccing into something.  But at the very least, it can serve as a base that you adapt according to what you need. 

 

As for rotation, this is something you either experiment or search on internet. There's no real secret there, you just use all your high damage skill in a pattern that reduces the amount of time you spam 1.

 

If people learn how to properly gear and build their character, the overall damage WILL rise. The rotation may not be optimal but at the very least having the good weapon with the good stats already increases your odds of winning.

[Sobx.1758]

20 hours ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

But it doesn't help you understand why its important.

Except it does. What's with people complaining about no bb tutorial (rightfully), but when the explanation is added to the game, they clearly don't bother reading through it apparently just to keep writing on the forum that it's somehow not enough/doesn't help you understand what it is? Just read what the npc says, then use the practice golem.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

On 3/10/2022 at 7:43 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Oh, yeah, that one. Tried it, kept pressing keys at random and i've been told that i have succeeded. If not for the fact that i actually know what cc and breakbars are, i'd have no idea what has actually happened. But hey, now i know that hitting ranger LB 4 whenever it is off cooldown is always a good idea.

Refusing to read and participate in a tutorial isn't the tutorial's/game's fault. If someone wants to spam everything randomly in an attempt to just force their way through the mechanics they don't understand instead of reading short information the npc named "instructor" provides while having every opportunity to try it out on the BB training golem right next to it then... yeah, that's your decision and nothing else.

Luckily when those players inevitably -and rightfully- hit the wall while repeatedly failing that mechanic later in the game, they are free to go back to the training zone to understand what/how/why they're supposed to do.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Zacchary.6183]

7 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

they clearly don't bother reading through it apparently

That's why you have to force them. Literally place a boss in front of them that requires the player to break the defiance bar or you die as the NPC screams "BREAK THEIR DEFIANCE WITH STUNS OR YOU DIE". So when they come to the forums to kitten like a kitten everyone can say, "Were you listening to the NPC screaming in your ear?". Players are that bad.

[Sobx.1758]

12 minutes ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

That's why you have to force them. Literally place a boss in front of them that requires the player to break the defiance bar or you die as the NPC screams "BREAK THEIR DEFIANCE WITH STUNS OR YOU DIE". So when they come to the forums to kitten like a kitten everyone can say, "Were you listening to the NPC screaming in your ear?". Players are that bad.

No you don't need to force anyone, provide the learning opportunities to the players that want to learn, the rest can stick to easier content -except now they can't pretend that they want to be better, but the game doesn't explain the mechanics to them. Similarly to your previous post, where you pretend it doesn't help them understand why it's important while it does. If someone wants to keep hitting the wall content with their head and then scream on the forum that it's too hard, we point them at the resources available ingame, then if they don't want to improve and succesfully complete the content... they don't need to, but it's nothing else then their own choice.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Dezzie.5903]

I love that people are trying to work on solutions to the issues the Dragon Meta has exposed. I think it's fantastic.

[Killer.4360]

It's more like "Most players don't care in the slightest to know how much dps they do".

Edited March 11, 2022 by Killer.4360

[Artemis.8034]

On 3/6/2022 at 3:31 PM, Lysico.4906 said:

Good.  Dps meters are the bane of the player base

 

How is it a good thing when fights like dragons end require a certain level of dps to beat?  An optional meter is not the end of the world dont toggle it if you dont want to.  I have been in many sub 5k groups that are failing the boss, they cant even get her to 20% in the time allotted, that is an issue. If you dont know what your output is then you can slack and the damage drops like a stone then you have another failed event. The meters are not the bane of the playerbase, the players that dont understand their damage contribution are. You dont know if you are doing 2000 dps or 20000 dps and yes it matters. 

[Artemis.8034]

11 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

True, but many who were advocating for in-game DPS meters in previous threads want to see everyone's performance.  When some suggested that the meter only report to the user, they were ridiculed for such a suggestion as being useless.

So the issue is no one sees anyones dps so I can stand there autoattacking and no one know. I think they should put a big banner in on boss fights that says...Congratulations  your group failed to meet the dps check of this boss try again.  That way no one can point fingers but you know who you are.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Artemis.8034

[Alcatraznc.3869]

5 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If someone wants to keep hitting the wall content with their head and then scream on the forum that it's too hard, we point them at the resources available ingame, then if they don't want to improve and succesfully complete the content... they don't need to, but it's nothing else then their own choice.

 

You would be surprised about the amount of player who are blaming the content instead of doing what people advise them to do. Something as simple as "If there's not enough CC, bring more CC" is enough to start a war about "toxic elitist forcing other to play what they want".

[dace.8019]

I've said this before but if Anet ever did include a DPS tool, I'd want them to make it as outstanding as their inclusion of mounts.

 

So I'd want it to track:

1. Direct Damage (dps, %, kills)
2. Condition Damage (dps, %, kills)
3. Damage boosts (traits, banners, vulnerability, spirits, boons)
4. Boons
5. Damage Avoided (dodges, blur, evasion built into skills, maybe AoE's you left before the damage hit)
6. Healing/Barriers (including rezs)
7. Cleansing
8. CC (hard & soft)
9. Support (alacrity, speed, blocks, reflects, condition support via weakness, chill, etc.,)

The game is about so much more than DPS.

[Sobx.1758]

7 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

You would be surprised about the amount of player who are blaming the content instead of doing what people advise them to do. Something as simple as "If there's not enough CC, bring more CC" is enough to start a war about "toxic elitist forcing other to play what they want".

...I wouldn't be, but somehow I still hold the same opinion I've shared above 😉 If the content is hard and requires some cooperation, then that's what it is (and it doesn't mean there's no space for some balance changes there). But if someone skips the ingame guides/tutorials (for example by, quote, "pressing keys at random") then those players are thier own worst enemies and shouldn't be trated too seriously when they try to blame the content while they willingfully refuse to utilize the game's mechanics or read short instructions explaining what/how/why.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[wayneericgouin.9371]

I legitimately don't know how much damage I do, I see people on the forums throw out numbers like 37k and I sit here thinking...is that a lot? I do more than that in one ability

[ens.9854]

14 minutes ago, wayneericgouin.9371 said:

I legitimately don't know how much damage I do, I see people on the forums throw out numbers like 37k and I sit here thinking...is that a lot? I do more than that in one ability

Well its 37k per second. If you are anything like me, you are probably doing most content with gear/food (potentially build) that hits around ~15k per second at most. Seemingly tiny optimizations in gear make an enormous difference. It's costly and unintuitive.

[Khisanth.2948]

14 hours ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

The issue isnt really the DPS itself because in the end of the day the DPS is a reflection of your gear, build and rotation.

...and all the buffs from support, with those buffs I can just autoattack for 10k DPS with a suboptimal build(missing 2 10% traits and another trait that is around 8%, also using the wrong food). I don't think we would be having this discussion if the DPS floor was 10k

 

 

[Tachenon.5270]

Because of this thread and that Mukluk video, I decided to try to test the DPS of my new 'Bladegunner'. Just using the golem thingee, not the add-on thingee. I generally avoid those.

Anyway, with the build I've been running in DE -- mix of Marauder/Berserker/Assassin gear, sword/pistol, Strength, Tactics, Bladesworn -- I was getting 13k. Hmm. Switched to axe/pistol, got 12K. Rifle = 11K. Back to sword/pistol with some trait adjustments and eventually managed to hit 20K, with an average around 18k. Hmmx2.

Of course, that's against a golem just standing there. Out in the wild, wild Open World with endless red circles within red circles and whirlpools and bubbles and all that good stuff, I'm sure that number is gonna be much, much lower, especially because she's gonna be more fragile. Instead of increasing DPS, it might lead to more SPD. Seconds Per Death, that is.

Also, didn't have any food on hand. Well. At least not for my Bladegunner. Ahem. Gotta remember to get some. And use it. MMO characters don't have to worry about carbs and calories, after all. Diet riot! Whee.

[Gehenna.3625]

On 3/11/2022 at 3:21 AM, Killer.4360 said:

It's more like "Most players don't care in the slightest to know how much dps they do".

Yeah this. People need to understand that a lot of people don't play this game for combat numbers. They just want to play and do their thing.

I'll be honest, I'm a casual player myself. I used to raid in another game for years but I don't really care about that anymore. And this game has a ton of content where you don't need to learn the combat system and classes at all. Now I do know about the break bar and I did know that combo fields existed but a number of classes have lots of combo fields but not so many combo finishers. In fact the intention is that a lot of that is done between players. Ergo one player lays down a combo field and another then uses a combo finisher. That by itself is anathema to solo players. Why on earth would they be interested in something like that? And then there are different combo fields (Light, fire, etc.), so then you have to match finishers with the right fields etc. 

That's not going to work for most casual players. I mean the heart that requires you to do combo finishers is a kitten poor attempt at teaching this because it doesn't even explain what to do and how it works or why it's needed. My wife was cussing about it and I so I looked it up (I had to do it myself anyway) and learned about it. Then I picked the easiest way around it and voila she and I completed the heart.

Now my fave base class is guardian and the bow and staff have combo fields and finishers at the same time. So I'm cool on that. It's a new thing for me that I picked up, but that's because I used to raid probably so I just pick up these things when I learn them but most people just don't care or find it too complicated...and I get that. It's not why they're playing this game. My wife just completed the heart, moved on and forgot all about combo fields other than the memory of how horrible it was to complete the heart.

And I don't have a clue how much dps I do even today, because I never cared to check. What I do know is that I kill mobs a lot faster now than before I started delving into the dragonhunter and firebrand specs and made some (a lot of) different choices in my build. But for years I just ran around in my crap builds and it was fine (ish) but at some point I thought, well, let's see. I was getting annoyed eventually by how long it took to kill mobs. So it got better.

And as for the last meta, the only problem that exists is that they gated the turtle mount behind it. I mean lots of players still fail at Triple Trouble. But that's ok for casuals, cause you know, there's nothing really important gated by that boss fight.

And the new meta will make sure that a lot of people won't try strikes either, let alone raids. I don't think that a lot of casual players will think after failing that meta various times: gee, I really like this, lemme try out some strikes. And in that sense I'm really not sure what Anet is attempting to do here. Which people are they trying to convince that they want to improve their builds, gear, and rotations? If it's casual players, then they're doing it wrong.

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 3/11/2022 at 8:16 AM, Tachenon.5270 said:

Because of this thread and that Mukluk video, I decided to try to test the DPS of my new 'Bladegunner'. Just using the golem thingee, not the add-on thingee. I generally avoid those.

Anyway, with the build I've been running in DE -- mix of Marauder/Berserker/Assassin gear, sword/pistol, Strength, Tactics, Bladesworn -- I was getting 13k. Hmm. Switched to axe/pistol, got 12K. Rifle = 11K. Back to sword/pistol with some trait adjustments and eventually managed to hit 20K, with an average around 18k. Hmmx2.

Of course, that's against a golem just standing there. Out in the wild, wild Open World with endless red circles within red circles and whirlpools and bubbles and all that good stuff, I'm sure that number is gonna be much, much lower, especially because she's gonna be more fragile. Instead of increasing DPS, it might lead to more SPD. Seconds Per Death, that is.

Also, didn't have any food on hand. Well. At least not for my Bladegunner. Ahem. Gotta remember to get some. And use it. MMO characters don't have to worry about carbs and calories, after all. Diet riot! Whee.

Note that Golem benchmarks are done with full boons and some other raid buffs. So you are already doing good and are probably a significant contributor to most world events.

 

So if you need to choose between 11k dps and surviving and 16k dps and dying, then you're probably better off choosing to survive especially if it contains effects that will buff party members.

I know I might get shot at, but it is perfectly reasonable to sacrifice damage for survival especially in an environment where you may not get heals and buff. It's just that sometimes players have unusable builds that don't do damage nor can it survive.

Honestly you would be better off just picking your favorite build/gear combo and practice a few rotations on it. Then compare it with the damage from merely autoattacking and this will help you weed out bad rotations. Sometimes you'll discover some skills may not even be worth using at all because they actually lower dps.

That is an example of a good use of a damage meter, as opposed to using it to criticize other people.

Edited March 13, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Tails.9372]

On 3/11/2022 at 5:16 PM, Tachenon.5270 said:

Of course, that's against a golem just standing there. Out in the wild, wild Open World with endless red circles within red circles and whirlpools and bubbles and all that good stuff, I'm sure that number is gonna be much, much lower

Well then just activate the moderately threatening environmental damage, that will show you whether or not your build has enough sustain.

14 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

And as for the last meta, the only problem that exists is that they gated the turtle mount behind it. I mean lots of players still fail at Triple Trouble. But that's ok for casuals, cause you know, there's nothing really important gated by that boss fight.

Problem is that there is still an issue rooted in what the devs want this meta to be. What you said works if you're ok with the meta slowly drifting into irrelevancy but the devs said that they want it to be as popular as e.g. Tarir which would require severe adjustments on various fronts.

14 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Which people are they trying to convince that they want to improve their builds, gear, and rotations? If it's casual players, then they're doing it wrong.

They never outright started it but if I were to make a guess I say that they wanted to create an environment where people who are willing to learn can learn without having the fear of getting kicked by a group for doing badly which was one of the most common complaints in that regard.

Issue is that in good old A-Net fashion they went exactly the wrong way about it as instead of punishing bad execution they just should have rewarded good one to make people want to improve instead of turning it into a burden for them, e.g. let's assume we have a OW boss that takes your average OW pug 2 min to kill and A-Net wants to add some mechanics to it:

This is wat A-Net would do: failing to execute the mechanics properly would either turn it into a >= 10 min fight or fail it completely.

This is how it should be done: failing to execute the mechanics has no negative impact on the fight but proper execution can reduce the time to one minute or less.

Make it on an individual bases too (e.g. by giving players who successfully do the green circle mechanic in the final DE fight a toned down version of the "super Aurene mode" from the story) and those who are open to learn the mechanics most certainly will do.

8 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

So if you need to choose between 11k dps and surviving and 16k dps and dying, then you're probably better off choosing the later especially if it contains effects that will buff party members.

I know I might get shot at, but it is perfectly reasonable to sacrifice damage for survival especially in an environment where you may not get heals and buff.

That's kind of contradictory. You say he's better off choosing the one he dies with but then turn around to say that sacrificing damage for survivability is the reasonable approach so which one is it?

IMO for the average OW player: it's always better to choose safety over damage if choosing safety doesn't completely decimate your damage (e.g. using trailblazer over viper is fine however using minstrel over viper is not). Issue is that even if a player actually asks for advise the answers he gets are generally not really helpful (which is usually also partly on him for not properly laying out his own skill level) as they are usually driven by theoretical performance rather than what the average OW player can be realistically expected to deliver with them. Sides like SC are also not really helpful because their builds are from top players for top players and are manly group oriented anyways and many builds you find on YT either lack the DPS benchmark or the practical example (usually both) on top of being already to complex for, again, "the average OW player".

Edited March 13, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Ausar.9542]

On 3/10/2022 at 5:57 PM, Tails.9372 said:

It's in the upper left corner of your screen.

where is the dps displayed? I tried this but didnt see any numbers for DPS

[Tails.9372]

3 minutes ago, Ausar.9542 said:

where is the dps displayed? I tried this but didnt see any numbers for DPS

It's displayed in your chat window after hitting the golem for a certain amount of time.

[Blaeys.3102]

Anet has said repeatedly that they want fights to be about mechanic not dps. Of course, they then go against that philosophy with the DE meta, but still.

 

Something like this, while a worthwhile endeavor and should happen, doesn’t address the real issue, which is poor fight implementation in game by the devs.

[Luthan.5236]

It is kinda weird having the OP also mentioning combo fields and CC bar when actually EoD tries to (in a mandatory story mission) explain this a bit to the players. Though - I have to admit that - it only barely shows them that there is something like that. Would need more research for this to know about the details in depth. (But any MMORPG needs you to do research on mechanics and stuff.)

For the combo fields I actually heard not many people really care - not really a thing to use them to maximize damage and stuff. (In some older posts/threads where I asked about this a year ago or so.)

DPS ... when you come from playing open world most of the time you probably have a somewhat balanced build. (Also using toughness and vitality - not full zerker.) At least for me. Since I am not that good at just staying alive by using dodges and blocks and stuff. Especially in a crowded meta with old computer and a lot doing on ... full zerker would have me downed permanently I guess lol. (Can't even see where to dodge if too many players are there.)

I mainly care to get the normal mobs (+ vets ... and nowadays elites) - killed in a reasonable time without being downed too often (if possibly only getting downed whily trying to solo champs not from elite or vets). That is how I do the build. No need to check "metabattle" when I can't play their builds without having to "learn" first and adapting the playstyle to a style I might not like. And I certainly don't change the build just for meta.

I have 1 PvE, 1 PvP, 1 wvW - and one for fractals (only playing up to tier 2 so far). Open world no changes made. Only if going for achievements in open world and story ... avoiding damage and stuff - to use more skills for that.

DPS bot in the special forces (raid training) area though: I'd love to see that improved - maybe added to arborstone or something. (There is the NPC that portals you alredy. The Strike NPC I think.) Should not require you to make a raid squad with only you in it ... when trying to solo train/check stuff there. I want to go there just solo without making a 1-man-squad. Would be more convenient. Might use it more often. Now I do not really care have only used it once or twice when I heard about it last year. (Most non-raiders probably only randomly get to hear about this area - like me.)

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

Just now, Blaeys.3102 said:

Anet has said repeatedly that they want fights to be about mechanic not dps. Of course, they then go against that philosophy with the DE meta, but still.

 

Something like this, while a worthwhile endeavor and should happen, doesn’t address the real issue, which is poor fight implementation in game by the devs.

True its  the company's fault .

Most likely the poor champ , spent 4 days and  tried to calculate with Propability + Power +Algebra  the posibility of completing the instance , with 1 exciting min left on the clock .

Mister , you spent 5 years in collage in vain . Dont worry, we will keep letting you down   :  :PP.

 

But also some people "quick in their fingers that can do 20k" should not derail the treads with "do more dps"  , when  casual target specific things from the encounter (RNG TALES , PEOPLE USING GREEN) and then they play the poor victim card .

 

 

 

(If their goal it to  to Strike Sell Run, something (which if that happens ,alternate ways must be created for unique rewards)

Or create default message in the lfg (5 letter of the name of  instance , count as default) and if you try to change or type more  it it will show the backend-darkweb LFG )

Or instaces have a solo option , where they spawn normal npcs that drop T6 mats , but doing that makes you a raid leader (by stealth) . 30min cd

Or create an auto LFG that the boss attacks-RNG-damage remain the same as Raids , but the HP is lowered (we can call then Tier 3 Raids) . And whoever wants to use the custom LFG and spent 30 min to gather OP specs for  10 a min Strike , they will be forced also to have the extra HP

Or the best solution  let them fight between then for 1 year .It will be called the GREAT COMMUNITY RIFT WARS , and we wont have to spent any more money to create new mechanics that will invalidated after 6 months , while they try to make every1 like them and in the end kick them if they cant surpass the 15k ...)

Edited March 13, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940