Bladesworn is painful (PvE)

[Zekent.3652]

5 hours ago, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

I'm salty about a lot regarding Bladesworn but what I don't like right now is that its a spec about bullets and they couldn't synergize it better with rifle. They took away [Killshot] for goodness sake, the literal most fun part of using rifle.

It seems to me that they think taking away F1 from warrior is equal to changing thief [Steal] or changing necro's lifeforce into other things. [Dragon Trigger] has to equal to everything we would lose in losing F1 and I don't think it gives enough to justify losing our core burst. I admit its close but not close enough.

In my opion, it would be nice if they remove DT3 and put the burst of your core weapon, the current DT3 is really buggy, thin and really low dps, no one will miss it.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Zizekent.2398

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

In my opion, it would be nice if they remove DT3 and put the burst of your core weapon, the current DT3 is really buggy, thin and really low dps, no one will miss it.

Why would this be nice? Having access to Core burst at the expense of DT3 doesn't fix any BsW problem and DT3 is actually useful.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Jzaku.9765]

9 hours ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

In my opion, it would be nice if they remove DT3 and put the burst of your core weapon, the current DT3 is really buggy, thin and really low dps, no one will miss it.

Unbelievably bad idea. Ranged frontloaded burst + cc is incredible in many situations.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

7 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

Unbelievably bad idea. Ranged frontloaded burst + cc is incredible in many situations.

now if only it actually cleaved......

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

now if only it actually cleaved......

Or hit a moving target...

[Zekent.3652]

6 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Or hit a moving target...

Or hit a target that is slightly on a lower or higher floor...

[Zekent.3652]

15 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

Unbelievably bad idea. Ranged frontloaded burst + cc is incredible in many situations.

Hey, i'm giving suggests and taking feedback from it, that's what forums are for, and don't forget how bugged is DT 3.

[Rym.1469]

On 3/27/2022 at 5:36 AM, Zizekent.2398 said:

So, this spec clearly needs 100% crit chance, why isn't it built like this? i mean, just like attacker's insight on spellbreaker, Guns and Glory could give bs some crit chance and higher uptime, 3s is too low, 5s could be fine.

If you have hands GnG uptime isn't any issue anyway, especially in PvE.

DTrigger stuns in AoE, you get immunity to Blind, Block/Aegis, 25 might during the channel and going into DTrigger procs your sigils so you can have Intelligence sigil on for your 100% crit chance. 

Should it make you breakfast and tie your shoes as well?

Edited March 28, 2022 by Rym.1469

[Zekent.3652]

35 minutes ago, Rym.1469 said:

If you have hands GnG uptime isn't any issue anyway, especially in PvE.

DTrigger stuns in AoE, you get immunity to Blind, Block/Aegis, 25 might during the channel and going into DTrigger procs your sigils so you can have Intelligence sigil on for your 100% crit chance. 

Should it make you breakfast and tie your shoes as well?

DT doesn't procs sigils if you were on core wep, and we're only talking about GnG here, don't need to bring anything else to the topic trying to get some validation adding a new trait and being passive aggresive 💀

[Obtena.7952]

16 minutes ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

DT doesn't procs sigils if you were on core wep, and we're only talking about GnG here, don't need to bring anything else to the topic trying to get some validation adding a new trait and being passive aggresive 💀

Are you sure DT doesn't proc sigils if you were on core weapons? I'm pretty certain it does. Can someone confirm this?

Even if DT doesn't proc sigils on core weapon, it's still highly debatable BsW should give a 100% crit chance somehow based on your claim it's clearly designed around it. 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Zekent.3652]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Are you sure DT doesn't proc sigils if you were on core weapons? I'm pretty certain it does. Can someone confirm this?

 

Doesn't procs wep swap sigils like intelligence sigil, mentioned before.

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Doesn't procs wep swap sigils like intelligence sigil, mentioned before.

I don't think that's correct. I think it still procs on swaps, you just are limited to the two sigils on your weapon. 

I mean, other bursts aren't going to crit on swap if you don't swap weapons either, so yeah, you have to swap weapon first then do F2. But it does work. 

The whole point here isn't to debate builds though ... it's to make sure there is an understanding that if you want a high crit rate for bursting, you have to build for it. It's not the deficiency you think it is just because you convinced yourself BsW is designed around 100% crit rate. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Zekent.3652]

23 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I don't think that's correct. I think it still procs on swaps, you just are limited to the two sigils on your weapon. 

I mean, other bursts aren't going to crit on swap if you don't swap weapons either, so yeah, you have to swap weapon first then do F2. But it does work. 

The whole point here isn't to debate builds though ... it's to make sure there is an understanding that if you want a high crit rate for bursting, you have to build for it. It's not the deficiency you think it is just because you convinced yourself BsW is designed around 100% crit rate. 

Is designed to have 100% crit rate, you don't wan't a critless Dragon Slash, that's a massive dps loss, and of course, you can build yourself to get the 100% crit rate, i just gave up and started using sigil of accuracy.

And about the sigil thing, i was wrong, it doesn't procs if it's from gunsaber to DT, not from core to DT.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Zizekent.2398

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Unseen Sword procs on DT from core set, which only procs on weapon swap, but that may just be the game swapping you to gunsaber and then into DT, which would be the reason it puts you back into gunsaber once you leave DT.

[Kichwas.7152]

On 3/27/2022 at 4:18 AM, Verdict is Vengence.6912 said:

I'm salty about a lot regarding Bladesworn but what I don't like right now is that its a spec about bullets and they couldn't synergize it better with rifle.

 

While I like the Bladesworn and have no problems with it's current design in melee or ranged, counter to the general thread opinion...

 

I think it's more a spec about copying the theme of the 'Gunbreaker' from FFXIV (and a few other anime games have a similar concept).

 

It's our 'gunblade' class. Historically there were some gunblades used in, if I recall right, central Europe. But for various reasons the idea was found inferior. I'm guessing that would be due to the problems of bending a rifle barrel by slashing someone with it - Bayonets are a stabbing tool so this is less an issue for them and they're also meant as 'last resort' (though more often used as things like riot control). But maybe the failure was in other areas - I'm NOT a weapons historian.

 

As such the concept is a bit silly. For me it falls into that 'uncanny valley' part of fantasy where by trying to look more realism based someone becomes more jarring that if it was purple fairies blowing things up with moon dust and butterflies like um... yeah, that other class. 😉

 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Is designed to have 100% crit rate, you don't wan't a critless Dragon Slash, that's a massive dps loss, and of course, you can build yourself to get the 100% crit rate, i just gave up and started using sigil of accuracy.

And about the sigil thing, i was wrong, it doesn't procs if it's from gunsaber to DT, not from core to DT.

Well, just because it's undesirable to get a critless DS doesn't mean BsW is designed to have 100% crit rate. No one wants critless ANYTHING on ANY build. I really don't see anything special about BsW that differentiates it from other builds for needing 100% crit. It doesn't even have trait that proc on crits like Spellbreaker does so I would say if there is such a thing about an espec being designed around crits, BsW isn't one of them. 

It's really important at this time with Anet having their eye on EoD specs that when we suggest things and discuss them, it makes sense in the context of the game. The worst thing we can do at this point is just invent rhetoric and ideas that have no basis in how the game works. Ideas like removing DT3 or giving BsW some more crit rate ... those are just throw away that solve no issue BsW actually has. 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

13 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, just because it's undesirable to get a critless DS doesn't mean BsW is designed to have 100% crit rate. No one wants critless ANYTHING on ANY build. I really don't see anything special about BsW that differentiates it from other builds for needing 100% crit. It doesn't even have trait that proc on crits like Spellbreaker does so I would say if there is such a thing about an espec being designed around crits, BsW isn't one of them. 

It's really important at this time with Anet having their eye on EoD specs that when we suggest things and discuss them, it makes sense in the context of the game. The worst thing we can do at this point is just invent rhetoric and ideas that have no basis in how the game works. Ideas like removing DT3 or giving BsW some more crit rate ... those are just throw away that solve no issue BsW actually has. 

 

 

They sold the spec with showing the "mass damage" that DS does, and you only get that damage by critting. That being said Anet won't give BS a crit trait because warrior already has a trait that gives bursts +100% crit chance so giving them another one would be redundant. Could it be in a more favorable trait line yes but I'm not sure if I see them moving it.

[Obtena.7952]

16 minutes ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

They sold the spec with showing the "mass damage" that DS does, and you only get that damage by critting. That being said Anet won't give BS a crit trait because warrior already has a trait that gives bursts +100% crit chance so giving them another one would be redundant. Could it be in a more favorable trait line yes but I'm not sure if I see them moving it.

Sure ... just like getting big damage on any other class requires high crit rate. It's trivial to say a spec depends on crit rate if it wants to do high power damage. That's not unique to BsW.  It's not unreasonable to think that still requires thoughtful choices in build to get that, no matter what spec or what it was sold on. Therefore, let's not pretend this is a 'problem' that needs to be solved. 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure ... just like getting big damage on any other class requires high crit rate. It's trivial to say a spec depends on crit rate if it wants to do high power damage. That's not unique to BsW.  It's not unreasonable to think that still requires thoughtful choices in build to get that, no matter what spec or what it was sold on. 

 

Most other classes do multiple skills to get those numbers so if a few skills don't crit it's not the end of the world, BS does everything to boost 1 attack so if that doesn't crit game over man.

[Obtena.7952]

14 minutes ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

Most other classes do multiple skills to get those numbers so if a few skills don't crit it's not the end of the world, BS does everything to boost 1 attack so if that doesn't crit game over man.

Well, it's not 'game over' if you don't crit on a DS. I just means you don't do an insane amount of DPS; people need to keep in mind what kind of numbers a DS actually does compared to what is considered good DPS values.

That still doesn't mean BsW is designed around 100% crit rate and it's a problem if you don't have it. Put it this way ... there are WAY BIGGER concerns as a BsW  player than what your crit rate is. Again, let's not invent problems that don't exist to ask for solutions that aren't effective.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Kichwas.7152 said:

 

While I like the Bladesworn and have no problems with it's current design in melee or ranged, counter to the general thread opinion...

 

I think it's more a spec about copying the theme of the 'Gunbreaker' from FFXIV (and a few other anime games have a similar concept).

 

It's our 'gunblade' class. Historically there were some gunblades used in, if I recall right, central Europe. But for various reasons the idea was found inferior. I'm guessing that would be due to the problems of bending a rifle barrel by slashing someone with it - Bayonets are a stabbing tool so this is less an issue for them and they're also meant as 'last resort' (though more often used as things like riot control). But maybe the failure was in other areas - I'm NOT a weapons historian.

 

As such the concept is a bit silly. For me it falls into that 'uncanny valley' part of fantasy where by trying to look more realism based someone becomes more jarring that if it was purple fairies blowing things up with moon dust and butterflies like um... yeah, that other class. 😉

 

The best historical such weapon was the Gun-Axe where the firing mechanism was in the middle of the haft and the axe at the end of the barrel. It was not meant to be fired mid swing, nor were any of the historical attempts at combining firearms and melee weapons.  They were inherently switch hitting weapons, as you fired at the oncoming enemy and then had a melee weapon ready to fight with, or vice versa if you were forced to engage in melee at the beginning. I believe the Polish Calvary used the gun axe as a standard issue weapon for quite awhile btw, it was all the sword variants that failed to deliver, much like the gunsaber.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

28 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, it's not 'game over' if you don't crit on a DS. I just means you don't do an insane amount of DPS; people need to keep in mind what kind of numbers a DS actually does compared to what is considered good DPS values.

That still doesn't mean BsW is designed around 100% crit rate and it's a problem if you don't have it. Put it this way ... there are WAY BIGGER concerns as a BsW  player than what your crit rate is. Again, let's not invent problems that don't exist to ask for solutions that aren't effective.

Let me ask you this, what  percentage of damage do you think a BS does comes from DS?

[Kichwas.7152]

14 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I believe the Polish Calvary used the gun axe as a standard issue weapon for quite awhile btw, it was all the sword variants that failed to deliver, much like the gunsaber.

 

My concern was that after you've swung the weapon, the barrel for the bullet is likely to be bent somewhat. Over time it would bend more and more - and that would increase the chances of an injury from misfire or simply give the gun side of things poor aim.

 

And yeah, you're reminding me of a video I saw on the polish gun-axe which I think was actually in use for some time - and if so makes the case that my concern can be gotten around with the right design.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

41 minutes ago, Kichwas.7152 said:

 

My concern was that after you've swung the weapon, the barrel for the bullet is likely to be bent somewhat. Over time it would bend more and more - and that would increase the chances of an injury from misfire or simply give the gun side of things poor aim.

For the gun axe that wasn't a problem, and for normal gunblades the barrel was short like a pistol, and built into the hilt to avoid that even happening. The had poor aim because they were one handed and the weight of the blade lowered the aimpoint. Bayonets on rifles and gun axes did not have this issue as they were two handed.

41 minutes ago, Kichwas.7152 said:

And yeah, you're reminding me of a video I saw on the polish gun-axe which I think was actually in use for some time - and if so makes the case that my concern can be gotten around with the right design.

Shadiversity might be the YouTube channel in question.

[Kichwas.7152]

6 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Shadiversity might be the YouTube channel in question.

 

Yep, I watch him a lot. He's corrected my misconceptions a number of times.

 

Of note is that none of the historical 'gun + melee weapon' concepts match the 'gunblade' of Anime - which is to put a rifle and a sword together and then swing it around.

At least the Bladesworn keeps the rifle part short and not built into the blade itself. Likewise FFXIV said 'no' to the 'gunsword' of older Final Fantasy and merely had a sword that you load a charge of magic into and when the magic 'booms' the sword gets a 'burst' of magic - even in an 'Anime MMO' they took away the 'it fires bullets' part of Anime 'rifle-swords'...

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Kichwas.7152