What makes Virtuoso "elite spec"?

[Masteis.9720]

I have tried many different builds for virtuoso, yet, unfortunately none of them has performed better than Chrono or Mirage. 

 

Power Chrono beats Power Virtuoso.  Also, Power Virtuoso's most of dps comes from the Phantasms, not from the traits/bladesongs/dagger that provided by the elite spec. In addition to that, Chrono is one of the best boon supporter and dps. 

 

Condi Mirage beats Condi Virtuoso in terms of DPS as well. And again, like the Chrono, Condi Alacrity Mirage build is one of top DPS Support build.

 

Even Virtuoso's all traits and utilities are DPS related, yet still way behind in terms of DPS compared to other 2 elite specs. 

 

Also unlike Virtuoso, concepts of both Chrono and Mirage are inventive.

 

So, what would make you prefer Virtuoso over Chrono and Mirage? For me, nothing. I believe that a rework is needed for Virtuoso. 

[Infusion.7149]

pchrono is better if it's a boss without phases but virtuoso allows you to prestock blades which improves your burst significantly. It's also better against trash mobs due to the 5 target cleave on dagger.
The current benchmark for virtuoso is also higher than pchrono with chronophantasma when you aren't able to rely on slow for 100% crit.

[Levetty.1279]

3 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

pchrono is better if it's a boss without phases but virtuoso allows you to prestock blades which improves your burst significantly. It's also better against trash mobs due to the 5 target cleave on dagger.
The current benchmark for virtuoso is also higher than pchrono with chronophantasma when you aren't able to rely on slow for 100% crit.

What burst?

[DeceiverX.8361]

The idea is that an elite should change the style of play, like Reaper does for core Necro.  For this, the overall concept of the Virtuoso is a success.

If it's a sidegrade in overall power to the core profession that changes how it's played, it's a success because elite specs weren't meant to introduce more power but simply change mechanics.

The problem is if it's weaker than core it's bad (and a strictly-projectile-based spec is not a very good idea), and we pretty definitively know the HoT and PoF specs are busted relative to core, which is more of a problem in it of itself.

[Infusion.7149]

2 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

What burst?

https://chart-studio.plotly.com/~Tipcat/5/#/

[Levetty.1279]

1 minute ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

The idea is that an elite should change the style of play, like Reaper does for core Necro.  For this, the overall concept of the Virtuoso is a success.

If it's a sidegrade in overall power to the core profession that changes how it's played, it's a success because elite specs weren't meant to introduce more power but simply change mechanics.

The problem is if it's weaker than core it's bad (and a strictly-projectile-based spec is not a very good idea), and we pretty definitively know the HoT and PoF specs are busted relative to core, which is more of a problem in it of itself.

But it doesn't change how Mesmer is played. 

[mortrialus.3062]

4 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

The idea is that an elite should change the style of play, like Reaper does for core Necro.  For this, the overall concept of the Virtuoso is a success.

No.

Reaper transforms shroud from core's medium to long range attrition style gameplay to an extremely deadly melee bruiser.  That's a huge difference.  Scourge transforms how life force is used entirely, consuming it in unique ways and giving shades that allow you to pulse attacks from that you can place in multiple places on the ground.  It also offers powerful support never before seen on necromancer. 

Ranger has a pet.  Druid offers a healing and support that at the time the game had never seen anything like before.  Soulbeast merges the player with the pet, allowing the player to use pet abilities that were previously automated by the pet and open up a new world of combos as they get their pets bonuses from skills and traits as well as dancing between being merges and being split for maximum effect. 

Core guardian has instant virtues with beneficial effects for itself and allies.  Dragon Hunter turns them into more powerful skills with unique animations but loses their instant cast nature.  Firebrand replaces virtues with tomes that are unique kits with unique ammo when you enter them.

Core engineer has its toolbelt.  Holosmith loses its elite toolbelt kill but gives holosmith a very powerful new weapon bar it can enter but it is limited by an overheating mechanic that can backfire if mismanaged.  Mechanist replaces toolbelt skills entirely for an extremely powerful mech pet that is customizable based on trait choices and your equipment. 

Even warrior, which still keeps its build ammo > spend ammo play style leaves all of the specs feeling very unique from each other that blows away what they've done with Virtuoso.  Berserker gives you a beserker mode with a longer cooldown than a normal burst but gives you much spammier burst skills while you're in it.  Spellbreaker you can only cast T1 bursts, but you get Full Counter which is one of the best defensive skills they've ever added to the game.  Bladesworn builds flow over time rather than adrenaline per hit and gunsaber mode and its' ability to charge for stronger effects is extremely unique compared to the previous bursts.

Core mesmer builds ammo through clones, and then uses them on shatter skills.  Chronomancer builds ammo through clones and uses them on shatter skills.  Even mirage builds ammo and uses them on shatter skills and almost always has. 

Virtuoso builds ammo through clones but they're blades now and shatters them but they're called bladesongs now. There's no fundamental change to the gameplay loop from previous mesmer specs.  No fundamental change in how the ammo is obtained.  Even the blade songs follow the power damage > confusion > daze > defensive skill aspect all mesmer specs follow.

Despite the same build ammo > spend ammo.  Aspect.  Chronomancer gave us continuum split which gives you the ability to double cast and is a massively powerful skills to learn and play around.  Mirage allowed you to spend endurance for unique and fun ambush attacks that changes how you see all sources of endurance in the game as not just defensive resource, but an offensive one you can never ever have too much of. 

Virtuoso is just a more vanilla feeling core mesmer than core mesmer.

In terms of changing the gameplay loop and style of play, Virtuoso is a huge failure. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by mortrialus.3062

[Ombras.2853]

9 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

pchrono is better if it's a boss without phases but virtuoso allows you to prestock blades which improves your burst significantly. It's also better against trash mobs due to the 5 target cleave on dagger.
The current benchmark for virtuoso is also higher than pchrono with chronophantasma when you aren't able to rely on slow for 100% crit.

Starting from the presupposition that Virtuoso has several flaws which aren’t even being issued by the developing team, and that makes me mad, PChrono isn’t better than PVirtuoso. As the post quoted says, the burst on Virtuoso is definitely better, and I see Virtuoso being a much more viable option in things such as Fractals and phasing Raid bosses.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Ombras.2853

[Yoci.2481]

@mortrialus.3062You are right, it feels like Virtuoso is the true core spec and core builds are elite specs in comparison. 😅

[De Bourgogne.9642]

15 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

But it doesn't change how Mesmer is played. 

If you only PvE sure. 

 

But in PvP and WvW playstyle is a lot different and is very worthy of being called an elite spec (that doesn't mean it needs to be better than core). 

[Levetty.1279]

23 minutes ago, McPero.3287 said:

If you only PvE sure. 

 

But in PvP and WvW playstyle is a lot different and is very worthy of being called an elite spec (that doesn't mean it needs to be better than core). 

Being worse then core isn't a new playstyle.

[Dadnir.5038]

15 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

But it doesn't change how Mesmer is played. 

It does.

Not having clones mean that you no longer make use of them for body block, misdirection or simply passive damage pressure throught the application of conditions (bleed/torment/confusion/vuln). Being able to keep blades in between foes mean that you no longer need to resummon clones for each target.

These are important parts of the gameplay of core, chrono and mirage that virtuoso forsake.

[Veprovina.4876]

45 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

It does.

Not having clones mean that you no longer make use of them for body block, misdirection or simply passive damage pressure throught the application of conditions (bleed/torment/confusion/vuln). Being able to keep blades in between foes mean that you no longer need to resummon clones for each target.

These are important parts of the gameplay of core, chrono and mirage that virtuoso forsake.

Soo... Worse than core? Cause Virtuoso got nothing to compensate for that massive loss of defense. And i'm not sure that the ability to keep blades between targets was worth it.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Soo... Worse than core? Cause Virtuoso got nothing to compensate for that massive loss of defense. And i'm not sure that the ability to keep blades between targets was worth it.

I'm sure one could argue whether it's worse or not as there is some aegis sources and extra block to take into account in regard of survivability. However, my point wasn't whether it's worse or not, my point was that it's cloneless gameplay is different from a clone gameplay.

[Teratus.2859]

Haven't played with it too much but my guess is maybe it shines most with AoE damage.
It can put down a lot of AoE damage really quickly.

[Veprovina.4876]

1 minute ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'm sure one could argue whether it's worse or not as there is some aegis sources and extra block to take into account in regard of survivability. However, my point wasn't whether it's worse or not, my point was that it's cloneless gameplay is different from a clone gameplay.

I know what you meant. But i'm not sure it's different enough for a lot of people. 

Plus, it's not just that. A lot of people were hoping Anet finally hears our year long pleas and makes a worthy espec. That after years of nerfs without any consideration, and nerfs upon those without restoring what was destroyed, bugs, etc., that Anet would finally treat Mesmers with some respect. 

 

And then we got Virtuoso. Kind of a core spec, but kind of worse... 

For a lot of people, Virtuoso represents what Anet thinks of their mesmer players, and it's frankly a bit insulting just how low of an effort they are willing to spend on us while other classes get much more consideration. 

And i'm not talking about the flashy skill animations on Virtuoso, those are well done, but the mechanics of the espec, or lack thereof.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

2 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Being worse then core isn't a new playstyle.

Debatable whether its worse or better than core, regardless how powerful spec is has nothing to do with playstyle, so your statement just doesn't make any sense. 

[Dadnir.5038]

5 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

I know what you meant. But i'm not sure it's different enough for a lot of people. 

Plus, it's not just that. A lot of people were hoping Anet finally hears our year long pleas and makes a worthy espec. That after years of nerfs without any consideration, and nerfs upon those without restoring what was destroyed, bugs, etc., that Anet would finally treat Mesmers with some respect. 

 

And then we got Virtuoso. Kind of a core spec, but kind of worse... 

For a lot of people, Virtuoso represents what Anet thinks of their mesmer players, and it's frankly a bit insulting just how low of an effort they are willing to spend on us while other classes get much more consideration. 

And i'm not talking about the flashy skill animations on Virtuoso, those are well done, but the mechanics of the espec, or lack thereof.

You know that there are people that asked for this kind of elite spec on this very subforum. I even got a 24h ban for not agreeing with this design on the thread that suggested it as I was reported by the OP who didn't like the fact that I was disagreeing with his point of view.

[Veprovina.4876]

Just now, Dadnir.5038 said:

You know that there are people that asked for this kind of elite spec on this very subforum. I even got a 24h ban for not agreeing with this design on the thread that suggested it as I was reported by the OP who didn't like the fact that I was disagreeing with his point of view.

I know. And it's not the design that's at fault. I'm not bashing that it's suddenly cloneless, i'm saying that they didn't go all the way. The implementation is half assed and uninspired. 

I planned on writing my thoughts on Virtuoso in a thread, i've been playing it since launch, i wanted to really test it, give it a chance. If you're interested in what i mean, you can read that, i'll probably write it later today or tomorrow. I can explain what i mean better when i give context and so, this thread isn't the place for that whole write up.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

13 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

I know what you meant. But i'm not sure it's different enough for a lot of people. 

Plus, it's not just that. A lot of people were hoping Anet finally hears our year long pleas and makes a worthy espec. That after years of nerfs without any consideration, and nerfs upon those without restoring what was destroyed, bugs, etc., that Anet would finally treat Mesmers with some respect. 

 

And then we got Virtuoso. Kind of a core spec, but kind of worse... 

For a lot of people, Virtuoso represents what Anet thinks of their mesmer players, and it's frankly a bit insulting just how low of an effort they are willing to spend on us while other classes get much more consideration. 

And i'm not talking about the flashy skill animations on Virtuoso, those are well done, but the mechanics of the espec, or lack thereof.

The reality is Anet doesn't have agenda where they would like and dislike certain class. They often do things randomly due to poor understanding of their own game or making specs that work just for specific gamemode (virtuoso seemed to be made for PvE as pure dps, and for group WvW yet they failed at that since everything is projectile based and even unblockable trait is akward to proc). Virtuoso is not a terrible design it just has minor errors that make it much worse than it could be. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by McPero.3287

[Veprovina.4876]

1 hour ago, McPero.3287 said:

The reality is Anet doesn't have agenda where they would like and dislike certain class. They often do things randomly due to poor understanding of their own game or making specs that work just for specific gamemode (virtuoso seemed to be made for PvE as pure dps, and for group WvW yet they failed at that since everything is projectile based and even unblockable trait is akward to proc). Virtuoso is not a terrible design it just has minor errors that make it much worse than it could be. 

Some of the stuff the community has been very vocal about in the feedback, so Anet knew kitten well the issues with it. So idk if they have an agenda, but since they knew about them, i wouldn't call them even an oversight. In any case, agenda, just pure lazyness (which i doubt), indifference or denial - none of it looks good to the community. You have to understand that.

Virtuoso a terrible design? Well, kind of. Good design would be something that synergizes with core traits well and brings something to the table. But when every other elite does what virtuoso does, but then ALSO brings boons, clense or something else to the table, then idk what to think of Virtuoso. Idk if that's then by design or "just an oversight".

[De Bourgogne.9642]

1 hour ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Some of the stuff the community has been very vocal about in the feedback, so Anet knew kitten well the issues with it. So idk if they have an agenda, but since they knew about them, i wouldn't call them even an oversight. In any case, agenda, just pure lazyness (which i doubt), indifference or denial - none of it looks good to the community. You have to understand that.

Virtuoso a terrible design? Well, kind of. Good design would be something that synergizes with core traits well and brings something to the table. But when every other elite does what virtuoso does, but then ALSO brings boons, clense or something else to the table, then idk what to think of Virtuoso. Idk if that's then by design or "just an oversight".

Virtuoso has better synergy with core than chrono. Ether Feast has insane synergy, chaos storm gives aegis... 

The synergy is not the issue and the core design of the spec is good just execution is bad. 

 

I think it is them not willing to put resources into fixing virtuoso and some lack of understanding. For example turning shatters into instant cast with current animation and projectiles changed into beams and remove unblockable would make spec a lot better executed yet reworking into beams is something anet won't put resources in since casual open world players (targeted audience) doesn't care about since they probably don't even know difference between beam and projectile (apart from visual effect). Instead they opted into unblockable trait which is infinity worse and lazy fix. I agree it is not a good look, but idea of spec was good. 

[Levetty.1279]

2 hours ago, McPero.3287 said:

Virtuoso has better synergy with core than chrono.

Notice how everybody who tries to defend virtuoso eventually has to resort to outright lies?

Tells you everything you need to know about the class.

[Junkpile.7439]

Well it does some damage mostof time. Finaly mesmer have one pve spec.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

On 3/10/2022 at 1:37 AM, Levetty.1279 said:

Notice how everybody who tries to defend virtuoso eventually has to resort to outright lies?

Tells you everything you need to know about the class.

Baseless accusation. Prove it