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[Discussion] Condition Damage in the Game


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DISCLAIMER: I'm excited for a bit of a hot take, but I'd honestly like to know if anyone else feels the same way I do. So with that in mind, I'll throw it out for you. 

 

What has been, since imo most of pof is a crazy change towards condi damage in the game. I see nerfs on things like the catalyst today 3/15/22 or nerfs on heal brand "removal of aegis on heal skill fb", yet burning and now torment continue to take main stage with damage. Burn damage has always seemed unusually high to me in all of the game modes, however people getting 40k dps from fractals (t4s) just by doing a simple rotation

"The basic idea is to maintain high symbol uptime while spamming  Burning with 

,

 and 

. When 

 is not available, axe skills are used to fill the downtime."

seems a bit off to me. I know this is not technically all there is to the cfb, condi firebrand, however its generality does show how accessible this class is. I do not hate the class for the accessibility however trying to compete with its damage on anything that runs power instead of condi is futile. I think the general rule is that if a fight goes on longer than approximately 30 seconds, then condi will do more damage. 

As someone who enjoys playing  the game as a power dps always, this is discouraging. I'll be honest here, I have always wanted a nerf to torment and burning builds.... however, this will anger a lot of people. Instead is it too much to ask for a buff to some power classes? Nerfing Elementalist every chance you get for what?

Real question at this point: How do you test damage Anet? 

I had a fractal group the other day, someone running the new willbender, getting 40kplus dps on a burn build. When asked what kind of rotations or what gear he was running, he claimed oh i just hit the buttons. I really enjoy playing an ele sword weaver pdps, im super squishy, its kind of fun, I follow a rough rotation... very intricate.... ill link it if you dont believe me. https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Weaver_-_Power_DPS_Sword you'll notice 38 steps on your main rotation. I get, if im lucky, 15k to 20k dps. Half of what the condi builds will get with an good amount of extra effort. I honestly dont want everyone down to this level, I just want to be able to compete at their levels. 

The solution imo, don't nerf, just buff. That's all I ask, if you agree with the statements above. 

I'll be coming up on the 10 year anniversary of my account here soon, and I have loved the game. However, it is very discouraging to see that similar to the Nerf slogan, its condi or nothing

TLDR: The scales are tipped towards condition damage, and away from power. To fix it please buff and not nerf. Its not fun to press a couple of buttons and sit there as burn and torment kills everything that exists. If you agree I'd love to know! If you don't, and don't mind a debate, we can figure it out! I hope that you see this and address this Anet!

Edited by aintnoprophetjr.7068
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I'm not arguing, because I don't know much about maximizing dps and flawless rotations and all, just asking. Isn't firebrand's damage offset by needing to drop into the other tomes for active defense if they are fighting anything that's a real threat?

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4 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

I'm not arguing, because I don't know much about maximizing dps and flawless rotations and all, just asking. Isn't firebrand's damage offset by needing to drop into the other tomes for active defense if they are fighting anything that's a real threat?

So afaik, cfb doesnt need to drop too much damage rotation for defense, at least in dungeons and stuffs, as in theory a well rounded team would have a healer that keeps your dps up. I mean you still need to dodge and stuff and do mechanics so I could see it. 

I think another thing, thats my bad for not pointing out, is that condi persists. Condi uptime is beeg for sure. So most melee's need to be on the guy for that damage. ranged even needs to be constantly doing damage on that guy, going through rotations. However, condi can stack some things, stop attacking all together, for a short amount of time, and not lose much dps uptime. 

But yeet! thank you for the discussion!!!!!

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And here-in lies some of the conundrum:  Condi outperforms when playing against AI.  
 

Against humans, especially in larger groups, it’s fairly ineffective.  


Sooooo..  with Anets history of skill splits (and by history I mean the lack there-of) if they buffed power for PvE, it will likely break other areas of the game.

 

I am in full support of true skill splits, which would be more likely to allow both condi and power to be viable in both PvE instanced engagements, and WvW related engagements.    Though I am not sure that is even remotely on their radar.

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20 minutes ago, aintnoprophetjr.7068 said:

DISCLAIMER: I'm excited for a bit of a hot take, but I'd honestly like to know if anyone else feels the same way I do. So with that in mind, I'll throw it out for you. 

 

What has been, since imo most of pof is a crazy change towards condi damage in the game. I see nerfs on things like the catalyst today 3/15/22 or nerfs on heal brand "removal of aegis on heal skill fb", yet burning and now torment continue to take main stage with damage. Burn damage has always seemed unusually high to me in all of the game modes, however people getting 40k dps from fractals (t4s) just by doing a simple rotation

"The basic idea is to maintain high symbol uptime while spamming  Burning with 

,

 and 

. When 

 is not available, axe skills are used to fill the downtime."

seems a bit off to me. I know this is not technically all there is to the cfb, condi firebrand, however its generality does show how accessible this class is. I do not hate the class for the accessibility however trying to compete with its damage on anything that runs power instead of condi is futile. I think the general rule is that if a fight goes on longer than approximately 30 seconds, then condi will do more damage. 

As someone who enjoys playing  the game as a power dps always, this is discouraging. I'll be honest here, I have always wanted a nerf to torment and burning builds.... however, this will anger a lot of people. Instead is it too much to ask for a buff to some power classes? Nerfing Elementalist every chance you get for what?

Real question at this point: How do you test damage Anet? 

I had a fractal group the other day, someone running the new willbender, getting 40kplus dps on a burn build. When asked what kind of rotations or what gear he was running, he claimed oh i just hit the buttons. I really enjoy playing an ele sword weaver pdps, im super squishy, its kind of fun, I follow a rough rotation... very intricate.... ill link it if you dont believe me. https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Weaver_-_Power_DPS_Sword you'll notice 38 steps on your main rotation. I get, if im lucky, 15k to 20k dps. Half of what the condi builds will get with an good amount of extra effort. I honestly dont want everyone down to this level, I just want to be able to compete at their levels. 

The solution imo, don't nerf, just buff. That's all I ask, if you agree with the statements above. 

I'll be coming up on the 10 year anniversary of my account here soon, and I have loved the game. However, it is very discouraging to see that similar to the Nerf slogan, its condi or nothing

TLDR: The scales are tipped towards condition damage, and away from power. To fix it please buff and not nerf. Its not fun to press a couple of buttons and sit there as burn and torment kills everything that exists. If you agree I'd love to know! If you don't, and don't mind a debate, we can figure it out! I hope that you see this and address this Anet!

The issue isn't burning or torment, it's the support/dps hybrids that use it and are simply overtuned.  Selfish DPS like weaver should easily produce better damage than these builds because they bring nothing else to the table.  That's what needs to be fixed.  Nerfing burning will impact classes like condi weaver that are also selfish DPS.

In the case of willbender, I think it's time they started ensuring that builds which are the easiest to play are not the best at whatever role they fill.  It wouldn't kill the game if weavers were filling the top DPS spots and rolling face on builds like this were middle of the pack, you know?  I'm not suggesting a massive DPS disparity.  Selfish DPS should still be filling the top spots, but among them there should be a payoff for builds that are also more difficult to perform optimally with.  I don't think that's unreasonable.

 

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8 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

The issue isn't burning or torment, it's the support/dps hybrids that use it and are simply overtuned.  Selfish DPS like weaver should easily produce better damage than these builds because they bring nothing else to the table.  That's what needs to be fixed.  Nerfing burning will impact classes like condi weaver that are also selfish DPS.

In the case of willbender, I think it's time they started ensuring that builds which are the easiest to play are not the best at whatever role they fill.  It wouldn't kill the game if weavers were filling the top DPS spots and rolling face on builds like this were middle of the pack, you know?  I'm not suggesting a massive DPS disparity.  Selfish DPS should still be filling the top spots, but among them there should be a payoff for builds that are also more difficult to perform optimally with.  I don't think that's unreasonable.

 

So like yeah I think I agree! Somehow making those selfish dps classes regardless of it being condi or power, take top spots. However, Even if you do go full cdps firebrand, the amount of utility that you have is insane. more than anything weaver throws. The other two tomes that you use create a way for you to heal and buff resistances as well as continuing to proc the dot damage. It is a little over the top. Things like cdps scourge can do this too. The issue I see is that Anet goes for nerfing the heals before they ever nerf the condi. However, its become no fun to just run into groups in dungeons that run all cdps and one healer. Then having the lowest damage being the pdps. 

But yeah i think that makes sense. Yee, again I aint asking for nerfs at this point, but for some buffs. Someone brought up a good point that this impacts things such as wvw and pvp. I think they have made the precedent for keeping those things differing in nerfs and buffs. 

Truly im looking for some dps equality. For lack of a better term lol. But gaining this by buffing and not nerfing I think is the path advocated for!

TY for your response!!!!!!

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Roll your head over the keyboard. Scourge got 33. No brain no rotation just blood is power into shroud perdiod. That is a joke.
Warrior blasts most of the other classes AND places banenrs. 34k easy by spamming f1 and pressing two buttons.

Condi damage is not a problem. The reward for complex rotation is.

Weaver and tempst are complex and crap for it. That is the issue.

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3 hours ago, aintnoprophetjr.7068 said:

So like yeah I think I agree! Somehow making those selfish dps classes regardless of it being condi or power, take top spots. However, Even if you do go full cdps firebrand, the amount of utility that you have is insane. more than anything weaver throws. The other two tomes that you use create a way for you to heal and buff resistances as well as continuing to proc the dot damage. It is a little over the top. Things like cdps scourge can do this too. The issue I see is that Anet goes for nerfing the heals before they ever nerf the condi. However, its become no fun to just run into groups in dungeons that run all cdps and one healer. Then having the lowest damage being the pdps. 

But yeah i think that makes sense. Yee, again I aint asking for nerfs at this point, but for some buffs. Someone brought up a good point that this impacts things such as wvw and pvp. I think they have made the precedent for keeping those things differing in nerfs and buffs. 

Truly im looking for some dps equality. For lack of a better term lol. But gaining this by buffing and not nerfing I think is the path advocated for!

TY for your response!!!!!!

You also have to consider the impact of the exposed debuff.  It used to be equal +50% damage during breakbars for any type of damage.  They changed it to +30% for power and +100% for conditions because power DPS was so dominant.  This is because power damage is able to burst without ramp up, which is favored in situations where you have a very small window to deal damage such as you do with breakbars and with the phase transitions you see on many bosses.

The thing is, the lower your group DPS, the less the disparity between power and condi because condi has the time to ramp up.  So, for mere mortals some condi builds got unreasonably buffed and are simply better than power where in speed run god tier power is still superior.

For this reason it's not as simple as just nerfing the exposed debuff back to the way it used to be.  They changed it for good reasons.  It may need adjustment, but it's more likely that certain builds just need a trim.  The problematic builds are also packing too much no-cost support as well, so the answer is pretty obvious...unless you're ANet, apparently.

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