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Please focus on balancing 'the final output' instead of nerfing every little thing that stacks up to contribute to that problematic output.


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If the game finds more clever ways to normalize outputs of dps, or healing, or whatever then it can loosen the reigns on what players are allowed to use as builds without the whole game falling apart. Right now the way things are balanced is killing the variety and fun.

 

There are different ways things can be done. If a player does dps over a threshold than the enemy gets a little toughness buff to just that player. And the more dps thresholds the player passes the more that toughness buff increases towards just that player. That way a player is encouraged to branch out and try multiple things instead of min/maxing to make a big dps number that freaks out devs.

 

In the first guild wars the more you wanted to raise an attribute the less your attribute points were worth until raising an attribute by 1 was costing 20 attribute points! That was a form of diminishing returns too. I'm just wondering how many other ways a game can balance the final sum without nerfing all of its composite parts.

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At first I hated this post then I reread it and it seemed okay. 

 

Only issue is it kills the people who do choose all dmg traits and gear which kinda results in the same thing. Which I think is a valid playstyle. (Glass cannon).

 

I think they just need to make the character more frail so that it incourages people to take some supportive or defensive traits that only see use in pvp or wvw.

 

Idk balance is hard

 

 

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1 hour ago, NumNums.7935 said:

Only issue is it kills the people who do choose all dmg traits and gear which kinda results in the same thing. Which I think is a valid playstyle. (Glass cannon).

Problem with "glass cannons" is that in GW2 this approach offers a massive increase in damage at a cost of a relatively small decrease in survivability. When your survival is 90% dependant on things that are not tied to stats/traits, but your damage is heavily build dependant, going glass cannon is the only sensible option.

Glass cannon is supposed to be high risk high gain option, but in GW2 it is low risk high gain one.

Edited by Astralporing.1957
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52 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Problem with "glass cannons" is that in GW2 this approach offers a massive increase in damage at a cost of a relatively small decrease in survivability. When your survival is 90% dependant on things that are not tied to stats/traits, but your damage is heavily build dependant, going glass cannon is the only sensible option.

Glass cannon is supposed to be high risk high gain option, but in GW2 it is low risk high gain one.

I think this is changing tho. Anet has been adding more unavoidable damage into strikes and other areas of the game.  I also feel that hybridization has always been favorable in most content around pugs. 

 

I just think it would be silly to put a dps cap in place. I think they have the right idea to just tune the numbers. 

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53 minutes ago, NumNums.7935 said:

I think this is changing tho. Anet has been adding more unavoidable damage into strikes and other areas of the game. 

There are three kinds of those. The real unavoidable damage is generally not dangerous (it is not deadly burst, but more of a constant low intensity pressure), and is supposed to be taken care of by your party healers. Then there's "unavoidable" damage you can actually prevent from affecting you by doing boss mechanics correctly. And there's the "unavoidable damage" that can be avoided if you just move out of the red aoe indicators.

Notice how none of those are supposed to be taken care of by more defensive stats.

 

53 minutes ago, NumNums.7935 said:

I also feel that hybridization has always been favorable in most content around pugs. 

Hybridization (either intended, or accidental) is one of the primary causes for massive effectiveness gaps in the community. When you go hybrid, you almost always sarcifice significant parts of damage for negligible increases in survivability you probably won't even notice unless you spec into survivability even further (sacrificing most of your damage capability in the process). That exchange is practically almost never worth it (with the possible exception being made for some singular roles in high-end group content)

 

53 minutes ago, NumNums.7935 said:

I just think it would be silly to put a dps cap in place. I think they have the right idea to just tune the numbers. 

It's not possible to just tune in the numbers and expect any kind of significant change. It's the whole game package that is responsible for the situation OP is talking about, and nothing short of massive rewrites to the core combat/gear/stat systems is going to improve the situation by any significant margin. Anything below that is just superficial.

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2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Glass cannon is supposed to be high risk high gain option, but in GW2 it is low risk high gain one.

When your only viable option is glass cannon is it really an option ?

 

GW2 really suffers from the problem of if sustain is too high there's 0 risk, so Anet nerfed sustain.

 

This leads to people going to the tried and true, "Kill it, before it Kills you". There's never been a class/specialization that really required balancing out a resource of any variety so they can't even use that as a balance lever. All they have are the two things that players dip into damage and sustain.

Edited by TexZero.7910
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5 hours ago, TexZero.7910 said:

When your only viable option is glass cannon is it really an option ?

You have plenty of hybrid options available to you. If you think glass cannon is your only option then you might need to look into other classes/ check into other builds.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

There are three kinds of those. The real unavoidable damage is generally not dangerous (it is not deadly burst, but more of a constant low intensity pressure), and is supposed to be taken care of by your party healers. Then there's "unavoidable" damage you can actually prevent from affecting you by doing boss mechanics correctly. And there's the "unavoidable damage" that can be avoided if you just move out of the red aoe indicators.

Notice how none of those are supposed to be taken care of by more defensive stats.

 

Hybridization (either intended, or accidental) is one of the primary causes for massive effectiveness gaps in the community. When you go hybrid, you almost always sarcifice significant parts of damage for negligible increases in survivability you probably won't even notice unless you spec into survivability even further (sacrificing most of your damage capability in the process). That exchange is practically almost never worth it (with the possible exception being made for some singular roles in high-end group content)

 

It's not possible to just tune in the numbers and expect any kind of significant change. It's the whole game package that is responsible for the situation OP is talking about, and nothing short of massive rewrites to the core combat/gear/stat systems is going to improve the situation by any significant margin. Anything below that is just superficial.

 

 

I agree with a lot of this, but tbh I dont think its as big of an issue as the community on the forums make it out to be. The combat system in this game isn't bad and this whole message is straying so far from the OP's original message.

 

The question is "Balancing of outcome vs Balancing of traits/skills", the op provides an example and I was saying tho I agree that the current balance updates due tend to leave players salty, I dont like the idea of adding another hidden mechanic for diminishing returns into builds. 

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8 minutes ago, NumNums.7935 said:

You have plenty of hybrid options available to you. If you think glass cannon is your only option then you might need to look into other classes/ check into other builds.

 

 

I'm sorry are we talking about actual end game content or just you walking through queensdale ?

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1 minute ago, TexZero.7910 said:

I'm sorry are we talking about actual end game content or just you walking through queensdale ?

Why troll.

 

Play druid or celefb or hb or any necro.

 

If you act like these options don't exist then your just doing yourself a dis-service. There is also many different gear types, like condi and want a little bit of tankness use trailblazer. Just make sure to do a toughness check with the raid group if the fight requires a tank.

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Just now, NumNums.7935 said:

Why troll.

 

Play druid or celefb or hb or any necro.

 

If you act like these options don't exist then your just doing yourself a dis-service. There is also many different gear types, like condi and want a little bit of tankness use trailblazer. Just make sure to do a toughness check with the raid group if the fight requires a tank.

Dude, you just told people to play support and necro and i'm trolling ?

 

Those builds are amazingly worse than their dps counterparts and necro exist to be the casual players way out with it getting 33%(used to be 50%) DR.

 

Try playing literally any other class and saying go defensive stats and see just how much of a slog it is now compared to when sustain wasn't nerfed to oblivion. Also see how far it gets you in endgame content where those stats are largely not-optimal and frowned upon.

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1 minute ago, TexZero.7910 said:

Dude, you just told people to play support and necro and i'm trolling ?

 

Those builds are amazingly worse than their dps counterparts and necro exist to be the casual players way out with it getting 33%(used to be 50%) DR.

 

Try playing literally any other class and saying go defensive stats and see just how much of a slog it is now compared to when sustain wasn't nerfed to oblivion. Also see how far it gets you in endgame content where those stats are largely not-optimal and frowned upon.

The raids are not hard, even wings 5-7 when people know the roles and mechanics are not hard. In no way shape or form is optimal required.

 

Bringing the words "casual players" into it, I would rather a new or casual player use a build which is easier for them to use but provides less damage. It will allow them to float in the 18-24k dmg range without having to focus on button perfect rotations, and focus on boss mechanics.

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2 minutes ago, NumNums.7935 said:

The raids are not hard, even wings 5-7 when people know the roles and mechanics are not hard. In no way shape or form is optimal required.

 

Bringing the words "casual players" into it, I would rather a new or casual player use a build which is easier for them to use but provides less damage. It will allow them to float in the 18-24k dmg range without having to focus on button perfect rotations, and focus on boss mechanics.

You don't have to do perfect buttons now with DPS gear so what's your point ?

You want things to take longer, have more risk of failure due to seeing more mechanics because you feel better ?

 

We weren't discussing what makes the player feel better we were talking about balance and right now as the game plays out bringing sub-optimal gear to endgame is a great way to not be sticking around for endgame very long as most people don't want to deal with what is ultimately a silly sacrfice given that you already have people taking that hit so you don't have too.

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4 minutes ago, TexZero.7910 said:

You don't have to do perfect buttons now with DPS gear so what's your point ?

You want things to take longer, have more risk of failure due to seeing more mechanics because you feel better ?

 

We weren't discussing what makes the player feel better we were talking about balance and right now as the game plays out bringing sub-optimal gear to endgame is a great way to not be sticking around for endgame very long as most people don't want to deal with what is ultimately a silly sacrfice given that you already have people taking that hit so you don't have too.

 

Developers put mechanics into fights for players to perform, it's supposed to be fun. I am not saying dps isn't valuable and the higher the group dps the better imo. Thats why I encourage people to play celebrand instead of full hb because the extra dmg is beneficial and their is almost no lose to the support value of the build.

 

To the original posters message. I disagree with a overall dps cap, because it will hurt full dps playstyle. Do you agree with the OP or not. Or are you here to just troll the message boards?

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8 minutes ago, NumNums.7935 said:

 

Developers put mechanics into fights for players to perform, it's supposed to be fun. I am not saying dps isn't valuable and the higher the group dps the better imo. Thats why I encourage people to play celebrand instead of full hb because the extra dmg is beneficial and their is almost no lose to the support value of the build.

 

To the original posters message. I disagree with a overall dps cap, because it will hurt full dps playstyle. Do you agree with the OP or not. Or are you here to just troll the message boards?

Is your only retort to being unable to follow a discussion that someone must be trolling ?

 

It's pretty clear that i don't agree with adding a DPS cap, just as it should be pretty dang clear i don't agree with how fundamentally silly Anet is when it comes to balancing the game as a whole. Hence the statement about DPS stats being the only viable stats at current.

 

That should have gone without saying, but clearly i had too. Maybe now you'll understand.

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3 minutes ago, TexZero.7910 said:

Is your only retort to being unable to follow a discussion that someone must be trolling ?

 

It's pretty clear that i don't agree with adding a DPS cap, just as it should be pretty dang clear i don't agree with how fundamentally silly Anet is when it comes to balancing the game as a whole. Hence the statement about DPS stats being the only viable stats at current.

 

That should have gone without saying, but clearly i had too. Maybe now you'll understand.

Then we have the same opinion for not agreeing with original posters message. Tho your actually ignorant to endgame content if you really believe that full dps stats (Vipers and Beserkers / Assassins) are the only viable stats.

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14 minutes ago, NumNums.7935 said:

Then we have the same opinion for not agreeing with original posters message. Tho your actually ignorant to endgame content if you really believe that full dps stats (Vipers and Beserkers / Assassins) are the only viable stats.

No, you're just not really understanding what the word Optimal means.

 

You want to advocate sub-optimal gameplay and selfish builds at endgame. That's a great way to not be invited to endgame content. Please do not respond with but XYZ support for the umpteenth time. I'm not talking about you playing a support role.

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17 minutes ago, Redfeather.6401 said:

It figures people would argue against diminishing returns. And yet every thing in the game is restricted and watered down with the knowledge that it will be stacked to min/max some role. I guess nobody wins. Fine.

You win sir, by being so cute 🙂

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3 minutes ago, NumNums.7935 said:

You said viable not optimal they are very different.

For DPS at endgame the taking anything other than zerker/vipers isn't viable.

Again you can do what you want, but try taking it past your personal circle and into LFG and see how well that works for you.

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31 minutes ago, TexZero.7910 said:

You want to advocate sub-optimal gameplay and selfish builds at endgame. That's a great way to not be invited to endgame content. Please do not respond with but XYZ support for the umpteenth time. I'm not talking about you playing a support role.

This whole statement is correct in a structured team who is ready (knows & mastered fights mechanics) to push for optimal clear time. This group of people is pretty small in overall compared to all players who raid, and even smaller compared to all gw2 players. 

 

Maximizing dmg should be a goal of the group but is by no means the only viable way to clear all raids. Sometimes we opt for security blankets with the cost of some dps to prevent wipes. 

Edited by NumNums.7935
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4 minutes ago, NumNums.7935 said:

Maximizing dmg should be a goal of the group but is by no means the only viable way to clear all raids. Sometimes we opt for security blankets with the cost of some dps to prevent wipes. 

Problem is, most of the time such security blankets end up increasing the risk of wipe. Remember, that the best survival strategy in raids is just plain piling up more damage so the boss dies fast enough before someone makes a mistake.

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