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Why is self rooting in warrior still a thing?


Apolo.5942

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Because self-root isn’t inherently a bad thing. It’s just an additional risk/investment into using the skill. As long as the payoff is appropriate, than the self root is not bad. 

A well balanced game is going to have a scale of risk vs reward, with some variation. In the simplest terms, if we are balancing a skill with nothing but damage (e.g. 100blades), risks would include having shorter range, having reduced movement speed, longer cast time, etc. Rewards would be things like damage and cleave. So for 100blades, you would expect a fairly high payoff for a rooted, long cast time for nothing but damage.


When we actually look at the payoff of 100blades compared to similar cast time skills (such as rapid fire), it’s investment is one of, if not the, highest, and its payoff is arguably the lowest. This creates a massive discrepancy of balance between warrior and other classes.
 

Other warrior skills are similar to this btw, in that they seem to be balanced to have similar or more risk than other skills with less payoff.

Edited by oscuro.9720
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For a root to be worth it, the pay off needs to be gigantic for how much of a drawback it is in GW2s combat. 

But not only that, it also comes as a cost of fun. 

Being unable to move sucks balls. 

 

Moving 24/7 in Combat is so ingrained into my brain at this point, being Rooted kittens with my muscle memory. 

Freedom of movement is one of the big reasons I love this game. 

Taking it away is 😡

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Warrior still self-root, because they are Warriors. Arenanet doesn't like giving them good things.

I wish Arenanet wasn't so utterly unfair towards Warriors, but that's nothing we can change.

14 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Because self-root isn’t inherently a bad thing.

Given how the game is based around movement and AoE spam, self-root is an inherently bad thing.

Edited by Fueki.4753
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16 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Warrior still self-root, because they are Warriors. Arenanet doesn't like giving them good things.

I wish Arenanet wasn't so utterly unfair towards Warriors, but that's nothing we can change.

Given how the game is based around movement and AoE spam, self-root is an inherently bad thing.

It is bad, but a self imposed negative that leads to a net positive can make said negative worth it..... problem is that negative rarely leads to a net positive in many game modes, especially PvP where the tell is so obvious that it is easy to either avoid, or cancel out due to a lack of mitigation against it being cancelled. 1 stability is essentially a paper shield in those game modes (even PvE at times) and the block is not much help.

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I actually don't mind self rooting as it makes you learn to position yourself or predict the mobs movement kinda like the greatsword in monster hunter game, and you also get aegis and short shadowstep as well.

 

And I also like big numbers from dragon trigger especially when you hit over 150k damage in one hit kinda like the greatsword from monster hunter game as well as I mentioned earlier.

 

If the mobs move too far you can also use skill 2 and 3 to get more range though lower damage.

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On 3/15/2022 at 11:00 PM, oscuro.9720 said:

Because self-root isn’t inherently a bad thing. It’s just an additional risk/investment into using the skill. As long as the payoff is appropriate, than the self root is not bad. 

A well balanced game is going to have a scale of risk vs reward, with some variation. In the simplest terms, if we are balancing a skill with nothing but damage (e.g. 100blades), risks would include having shorter range, having reduced movement speed, longer cast time, etc. Rewards would be things like damage and cleave. So for 100blades, you would expect a fairly high payoff for a rooted, long cast time for nothing but damage.


When we actually look at the payoff of 100blades compared to similar cast time skills (such as rapid fire), it’s investment is one of, if not the, highest, and its payoff is arguably the lowest. This creates a massive discrepancy of balance between warrior and other classes.
 

Other warrior skills are similar to this btw, in that they seem to be balanced to have similar or more risk than other skills with less payoff.

This game really really punishes you if you stand still this is why every single class has a dodge that moves them or in the case of mirage lots of movement skills.

Also there is a reason why immobilized is a negative conition

Edited by Infinity.2876
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On 3/16/2022 at 11:04 AM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

For a root to be worth it, the pay off needs to be gigantic for how much of a drawback it is in GW2s combat. 

But not only that, it also comes as a cost of fun. 

Being unable to move sucks balls. 

 

Moving 24/7 in Combat is so ingrained into my brain at this point, being Rooted kittens with my muscle memory. 

Freedom of movement is one of the big reasons I love this game. 

Taking it away is 😡

This simply isn't true. Or, I suppose, it's simply subjective making it an opinion and ultimately a decision point for the designers. Self imposed vulnerability is good game design and makes actions carry more weight. This makes your actions and decisions meaningful and more fun. Perhaps my opinion is just because I love Monster Hunter.
 

As powerful as it would be, an Elementalist having free movement during Meteor Shower wouldn't feel good. Thousand Blades is the same.

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On 3/16/2022 at 10:26 AM, Fueki.4753 said:

Warrior still self-root, because they are Warriors. Arenanet doesn't like giving them good things.

I wish Arenanet wasn't so utterly unfair towards Warriors, but that's nothing we can change.

Given how the game is based around movement and AoE spam, self-root is an inherently bad thing.

Self root is a cost, just like any other cost. If you want to say costs in-and-of themselves are bad things, then fine, but I would disagree with you. Cast times are another example of a cost. Certainly a short cast time is superior to a long cast time, but a long cast time isn’t inherently bad. The effect of a long cast skill should overshadow the effect of a short cast skill, which creates a balance between the two. When a long cast skill has the same effect as a short cast skill, one of the two cast times is, indeed, bad, but it could just as likely be the short cast time as it could the longer one.

Self root only becomes a problem when the payout doesn’t justify the cost. 100blades is a good example of that occurring. However, we can look at some self-root invulnerable and see that they are not problematic in the same way. This is because invulnerability frames is a very large payoff, justifiable of having a self-root. 

If you want to say that most self-root skills don’t have a payoff that justifies the lack of movement, I’d be more inclined to agree with you. 

Edited by oscuro.9720
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11 hours ago, HotHit.6783 said:

This simply isn't true. Or, I suppose, it's simply subjective making it an opinion and ultimately a decision point for the designers. Self imposed vulnerability is good game design and makes actions carry more weight. This makes your actions and decisions meaningful and more fun. Perhaps my opinion is just because I love Monster Hunter.
 

As powerful as it would be, an Elementalist having free movement during Meteor Shower wouldn't feel good. Thousand Blades is the same.

Powerful? 

Meteorshower is nerfed so much, it's a joke in Wvw, (always has been) unplayable in PvP and when was the last time staff has seen play in group pve? Hot? 

I think hundred blades was dangerous in 2012? Look at the actual dmg is does in PvP and PvE. Laughable. 

If both these skills had some meat on the bones, you could have a point. 

 

Also, isn't Monster hunter a pure pve game? 

Who cares if it works there? 

Coolness doesn't matter in an MMO. 

Effectiveness does. 

 

And being unmobile in this game is such a massive downside to have, it's basically impossible to balance it. 

 

 

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9 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Also, isn't Monster hunter a pure pve game? 

Who cares if it works there? 

Coolness doesn't matter in an MMO. 

Effectiveness does. 

It has to be PvP examples of self rooting being good design? Fine.
League of Legends: The ultimates of Nunu&Willump, Caitlyn, Jhin, Malzahar and Warwick.

And if I have to give examples of other MMORPGs using self-rooting in their design:

Final Fantasy XIV: Everything from Black Mage and all healers, Samurai's Midare Setsugekka.

Those skills not having sufficient payoff is a fine complaint. But if play feel simply isn't irrelevant, then you wouldn't have made points about self-rooting making you unhappy and being finnicky for you to use.

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39 minutes ago, artharon.9276 said:

that's anet. you tell one thing that everyone agree, like "gw2 isn't designed to have mounts you can't have mounts!" then bam they bring the best mount system ever made. 

 

I guess it's a similar scenario where they tried and failed. 

I thought this was the reverse? Alot of people wanted mounts, I remember Anet explaining they couldnt do mounts due to their coding not working in the game properly so wasn't feasible. 

This got fixed in PoF when they did several system upgrades to get mounts working effectively and alone are worth buying s expansion for really. 

I'm pretty certain most did want mounts all along. 

Although gw2 mount system is prolly one of the most successful and interesting systems to be brought into a mmorpg yet. 

Edited by Daddy.8125
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2 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I thought this was the reverse? Alot of people wanted mounts, I remember Anet explaining they couldnt do mounts due to their coding not working in the game properly so wasn't feasible. 

This got fixed in PoF when they did several system upgrades to get mounts working effectively and alone are worth buying s expansion for really. 

I'm pretty certain most did want mounts all along. 

Although gw2 mount system is prolly one of the most successful and interesting systems to be brought into a mmorpg yet. 

nope never was the loudly supported idea, it could be the most demanded in reality when you consider actual numbers, (like how eod has no old school raids, in forums it sounds like a catastrophe but in reality a great thing for the majority considering how friendly sm environment is)

 

Also where were you when I posted the idea a decade ago and people scolded me by saying "if you don't like walking go play WoW". It was heart breaking lmao. 

Edited by artharon.9276
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2 hours ago, artharon.9276 said:

nope never was the loudly supported idea, it could be the most demanded in reality when you consider actual numbers, (like how eod has no old school raids, in forums it sounds like a catastrophe but in reality a great thing for the majority considering how friendly sm environment is)

 

Also where were you when I posted the idea a decade ago and people scolded me by saying "if you don't like walking go play WoW". It was heart breaking lmao. 

Nah wasn't one didn't join the game til way after PoF.  However its rare Anet wouldn't justify / address something if a outcry wasn't large enough. 

Anet went to effort to state they couldn't get mounts to Work on gw2 engine, if no one wanted mounts they'd of never made a statement. 

The outcry was found somewhere realistically. 

WoW has its population who despise flying existence too in all honesty, every mmorpg has its crowd who hates it, they just intend to smaller compared to the quantity who want it. 

 

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4 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Nah wasn't one didn't join the game til way after PoF.  However its rare Anet wouldn't justify / address something if a outcry wasn't large enough. 

Anet went to effort to state they couldn't get mounts to Work on gw2 engine, if no one wanted mounts they'd of never made a statement. 

The outcry was found somewhere realistically. 

WoW has its population who despise flying existence too in all honesty, every mmorpg has its crowd who hates it, they just intend to smaller compared to the quantity who want it. 

 

 

not really sure bout the part anet can talk about their game engine which is not really their engine. 

back to topic, other than rooting thing, it appers to be it won't go anywhere, consider yourself lucky if they let blink range little bit better. so, is it fair for an npc to have more fun than I am?

 

like when they can own a house, I can't,

when they can become criminals, I can't.

and when they are better bladesworns then I am. Those beautiful effects and stuff. talking about minister Li and his goons at strike mission.

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2 hours ago, artharon.9276 said:

 

not really sure bout the part anet can talk about their game engine which is not really their engine. 

back to topic, other than rooting thing, it appers to be it won't go anywhere, consider yourself lucky if they let blink range little bit better. so, is it fair for an npc to have more fun than I am?

 

like when they can own a house, I can't,

when they can become criminals, I can't.

and when they are better bladesworns then I am. Those beautiful effects and stuff. talking about minister Li and his goons at strike mission.

Tbh I don't mind jade slash's self root. 

However greatswords hundred blades self root feels pretty bad. 

I think a large point of that is down to the fact hundred blades is a channeled ability which requires several swings before it lands all of its damage. So if you only get 2 of the 5 to direct hit it doesn't get the affect.

Jade slash only needs to connect once, and the fact you have 2 back up options which deliever that same stun on the enemy player means the rewards fully met. 

Also you can double tap jade slash to interrupt with barely any self root. So you have the opt into either method. 

Hundred blades just feels outdated. Due to the fact your never gonna land all the hits on a active player. You can't just land a stun and get off its damage either. Theres very few stun/cc windows in a 1v1 (as warrior is a duellist) that's gonna allow for a full hundred blades. 

 

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46 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Tbh I don't mind jade slash's self root. 

However greatswords hundred blades self root feels pretty bad. 

I think a large point of that is down to the fact hundred blades is a channeled ability which requires several swings before it lands all of its damage. So if you only get 2 of the 5 to direct hit it doesn't get the affect.

Jade slash only needs to connect once, and the fact you have 2 back up options which deliever that same stun on the enemy player means the rewards fully met. 

Also you can double tap jade slash to interrupt with barely any self root. So you have the opt into either method. 

Hundred blades just feels outdated. Due to the fact your never gonna land all the hits on a active player. You can't just land a stun and get off its damage either. Theres very few stun/cc windows in a 1v1 (as warrior is a duellist) that's gonna allow for a full hundred blades. 

 

 

yes, that, you can't really root or stun a target and cast a HB your target. I suggested ages ago making that skill a cone aoe pull and attack combo but I don't think anet would do that. 

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