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Stel.2098

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Hi everyone I'm not use to do that kind of post but I want to talk about a profession which seems to be almost useless in Pve late game content such as raid or strike.

For me elementalist is for sure one of the best gameplay created by anet and I really enjoy when Im playing it, weaver tempest or cataclyst are overall really funny and pleasant profession to play.

Overall I will mostsly speak for the dps elementalist

But I feel like playing elementalist in raid is useless, due to the hard rotation, low life and survivabilty nothing really makes you want to play elementalist. Te recent cataclyst nerf in dps show this aswell, yes the amount of damage was huge but who would have succed to have this amount of damage ? Weaver's power damag eis low compare to other power damage, the condi-dps is unplayable and hard to succed.

So my question is why are the players not reward to play elementalist ? Like no one wants to play hard profession whitout having any advantage of playing it !

Best !

 

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First of all: Guildwars does not balance by how easy/hard a class is. So a dificult class is not better then a easy class.

I dont do alot of PvE content at all... BUT i think that condiweaver is pretty okayish. You just need to get a good flow/feel for the rotations. But once it becomes musclememory it works really well.

Its harsh to say but most ele Problems are l2p problems. If you invest the time it will suddenly click and you can play this piano-like-class without thinking. and at that point you are really starting to improve.

Personally speaking.... Condiweaver is not hard to play. But that is because i have thousands of hours on Swordweaver....  Just keep on practicing^^

 

Edited by Sahne.6950
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25 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

First of all: Guildwars does not balance by how easy/hard a class is. So a dificult class is not better then a easy class.

I dont do alot of PvE content at all... BUT i think that condiweaver is pretty okayish. You just need to get a good flow/feel for the rotations. But once it becomes musclememory it works really well.

Its harsh to say but most ele Problems are l2p problems. If you invest the time it will suddenly click and you can play this piano-like-class without thinking. and at that point you are really starting to improve.

Personally speaking.... Condiweaver is not hard to play. But that is because i have thousands of hours on Swordweaver....  Just keep on practicing^^

 

I compltely agree with the l2p problem for the ele, but why would people spend thousand of hours to do better with a ten hour practcing...

But ye for sure ele condi weaver mastered is good but not a beast and will not make people even try to play the profession

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7 minutes ago, Stel.2098 said:

I compltely agree with the l2p problem for the ele, but why would people spend thousand of hours to do better with a ten hour practcing...

But ye for sure ele condi weaver mastered is good but not a beast and will not make people even try to play the profession

because they think that ele is fun... which it is:D

I can only talk about the Wvw/PvP perspective as that is where i spend 99% of my time... but Ele is hella fun and has a answer to almost anything that your opponent is throwing at you.

 

PvE might be diffrent... because all those sweaty people have figured out the min/maxed versions and rotations for builds... you are not really playing as active as you are in pvp content... you kinda just roll thru your rotation over and over again... so maybe this active playstyle that you have in PvP contents is lost in PvE Ele...

 

Conclusion: if you dont want to play ele... dont do it:D but it can be good, tho you also have to be good with ele. Choice is yours.

 

i hope this helps :D

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7 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

First of all: Guildwars does not balance by how easy/hard a class is. So a dificult class is not better then a easy class.

I dont do alot of PvE content at all... BUT i think that condiweaver is pretty okayish. You just need to get a good flow/feel for the rotations. But once it becomes musclememory it works really well.

Its harsh to say but most ele Problems are l2p problems. If you invest the time it will suddenly click and you can play this piano-like-class without thinking. and at that point you are really starting to improve.

Personally speaking.... Condiweaver is not hard to play. But that is because i have thousands of hours on Swordweaver....  Just keep on practicing^^

 

Sure, but it could use better cleave, range, less reliance on outside boons.  All of the things that cause it to lag behind when it shouldn't whenever a boss isn't a simple stand in place and faceroll a rotation.  Barring that it could stand to be head and shoulders above all other DPS specs so that when the perfect conditions aren't met it's still competitive and when the stars align it's as amazing at DPS as a selfish DPS role should be.

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@Sahne :
Re: "Condi weaver is not hard to play." Not sure if serious.

Go look at a 37K+ condi willbender camping scepter+torch and tell me that an average player can even achieve that on condi weaver with a scepter , dagger, or a sword. Beginner power weaver benchmark is something akin to 30K and the hardstuck "flexible power weaver" is said by Mela to have 31K when they tested. Even the EOD metas are hostile to sword weavers since phase-shifted trolls any melee-only player by not letting you DPS whatsoever for a certain timeframe. Even a so-called easy mode scepter weaver testing in benchmark is 35K and has same complexity as a 2 weapon spec.

Weaver has a problem not that just that it is hard to play but that it is also reliant on other people's boons which is the main reason hybrid FA weaver exists. That even goes for power weaver unless you run arcane instead of fire traitline akin to PVP weavers. Catalyst didn't have that specific problem, it was plagued by QoL issues from the design (who thought a 5s orb duration would work , why did orbs remain projectiles instead of pulse damage, why are hammer finishers on the longest cooldown skills) which was only made worse by a 15s cooldown stationary jade sphere. It could have been the strongest elementalist PVE specialization if quickness application wasn't so finicky , for example if it applied quickness when jade orb was deployed instead of pulsing. If hammer had 900 range on air/fire and cleave or piercing it would have been a bonus, but 600 range is normally enough to deal with PVE mechanics. Outside of PVE however, below 900 range is effectively melee.
The only saving grace for elementalist right now in PVE is more or less tempest although tempest makes use of externally applied quickness to a great degree if you play power tempest. You can get 32K-33K benchmark camping fire on scepter with grieving/viper sets (condi/hybrid) due to the scepter changes. While hitbox reliant, power tempest offers you the flexibility of doing damage regardless of which attunement you swapped to due to fresh air resetting air for you although relies far more swapping attunements.The power variant also allows you to run rebound  ; condi variant allows you to share protection on sand squall. So ultimately on par with shortbow soulbeast difficulty gets you similar DPS and range but also might sharing which is more or less what scourge does these days but with barrier application.

Edited by Infusion.7149
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12 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

First of all: Guildwars does not balance by how easy/hard a class is. So a dificult class is not better then a easy class.

I dont do alot of PvE content at all... BUT i think that condiweaver is pretty okayish. You just need to get a good flow/feel for the rotations. But once it becomes musclememory it works really well.

Its harsh to say but most ele Problems are l2p problems. If you invest the time it will suddenly click and you can play this piano-like-class without thinking. and at that point you are really starting to improve.

Personally speaking.... Condiweaver is not hard to play. But that is because i have thousands of hours on Swordweaver....  Just keep on practicing^^

 

ok lets balance for what the class brings to the group then.

weaver fully melee, 0 boons low hp, burst on 90sec cd. Looks like it brings absolutely nothing except boosting revive stats. No matter from which angle you look at it. it makes 0 sense for ele to be below ANY guard spec or renegade. heck its on par with signet mech which is almost fully ranged. also below spectre which is also ranged and buffs barrier.

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14 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Its harsh to say but most ele Problems are l2p problems

why l2p when you can literally press one button on other profs and do 20k dps while afk.

GL doing that much dps on an ele with this amount of 'effort'. the balancing in this game is just all over the place tbh.

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10 minutes ago, fixit.7189 said:

why l2p when you can literally press one button on other profs and do 20k dps while afk.

GL doing that much dps on an ele with this amount of 'effort'. the balancing in this game is just all over the place tbh.

I have to say I am really beginning to despise Mechanist.  The design runs counter to everything this "non-trinity" action combat game is supposed to be about.  Not only that, the stupid mechs are huge and annoying in group play, making an already bad visual mess much worse than before.  Also, as a melee build I am really getting tired of the enemies I'm fighting breaking off to engage the mech that is just standing there not bothering anyone 2000 units away! 

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You know, it's weird how quickly people dismiss the idea that it's GOOD there are some options that are easier to play than others, regardless of the level of performance those options have.

I mean, we can all continue to pretend that everyone can just 'git gud' and execute rotations flawlessly to get 35K ... or we can accept the reality that some people that you are likely to team with are going to benefit from these easy builds and contribute to the team in a more meaningful way than just doing 5K.  

Edited by Obtena.7952
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3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You know, it's weird how quickly people dismiss the idea that it's GOOD there are some options that are easier to play than others, regardless of the level of performance those options have.

I mean, we can all continue to pretend that everyone can just 'git gud' and execute rotations flawlessly to get 35K ... or we can accept the reality that some people that you are likely to team with are going to benefit from these easy builds and contribute to the team in a more meaningful way than just doing 5K.  

The irony is that this is one of the reasons why I made this thread in the player help section.  The mechanist's high auto damage came as a surprise to Mukluk, but I've known about it for three weeks now.  If given the proper outside boons, the auto damage combined with the mech can reach the 27k-30k range, making it theoretically the strongest low-effort build in the game.  A few other standouts are staff daredevil, revenant with toggles, and axe condi mirage.

It is unfortunate that ele doesn't get these kinds of benefits.  It isn't good design to have the baseline damage vary so wildly between professions, or even between weapons on the same profession.  To keep this relevant to catalyst, the hammer has exceptionally low auto damage for... no real discernable reason.  It's not like the benchmark aspirants are sitting there while auto attacking with it.  Auto damage isn't just a baseline, it is the point of regression for mistakes and unforeseen circumstances.  Having the auto attacks on hammer be low doesn't balance it against anything; it just makes the hammer overly-punishing for mistakes.  

Edited by Blood Red Arachnid.2493
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24 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

The irony is that this is one of the reasons why I made this thread in the player help section.  The mechanist's high auto damage came as a surprise to Mukluk, but I've known about it for three weeks now.  If given the proper outside boons, the auto damage combined with the mech can reach the 27k-30k range, making it theoretically the strongest low-effort build in the game.  A few other standouts are staff daredevil, revenant with toggles, and axe condi mirage.

It is unfortunate that ele doesn't get these kinds of benefits.  It isn't good design to have the baseline damage vary so wildly between professions, or even between weapons on the same profession.  To keep this relevant to catalyst, the hammer has exceptionally low auto damage for... no real discernable reason.  It's not like the benchmark aspirants are sitting there while auto attacking with it.  Auto damage isn't just a baseline, it is the point of regression for mistakes and unforeseen circumstances.  Having the auto attacks on hammer be low doesn't balance it against anything; it just makes the hammer overly-punishing for mistakes.  

If I'm reading the rotation right, current power catalyst doesn't even use auto attack even once. 

Pre-nerf simplified power catalyst rotation used up to 1-2 autos in earth because as a filler since the rotation didn't sync up perfectly. 

Hammer auto attacks are really just there to make you feel bad about them in PvP/WvW. 

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1 hour ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

It isn't good design to have the baseline damage vary so wildly between professions, or even between weapons on the same profession.

In line with a comment I made in another thread, having this variation isn't inherently bad design. When it comes to designing skill requirements for classes, there's really only two criteria you should absolutely meet: the effort required to play a class should be proportional to the performance it can produce, and the lowest skill requirement class should still be relevant to the game.

In other words, as long as the hardest to play class gets proportionally the best results when played optimally, and the easiest to play class can still pass all performance checks in the game (i.e. it is viable), then there's no foul play at hand. You'd be able to play any class you like, but get rewarded for putting in the effort into the harder classes. Easy classes/builds should of course be an option, but they should perform worse than harder ones, otherwise why bother putting in the effort at all?

That being said, catalyst doesn't perform well enough to justify the amount of effort you need to put into it. Regarding autos, like you said optimal play wouldn't rely on them, so there's no real reason to have them be so weak either. Having autos be a bit better wouldn't really make catalyst stronger, it'd just make it less weak.

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19 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

@Sahne :
Re: "Condi weaver is not hard to play." Not sure if serious.

Go look at a 37K+ condi willbender camping scepter+torch and tell me that an average player can even achieve that on condi weaver with a scepter , dagger, or a sword. Beginner power weaver benchmark is something akin to 30K and the hardstuck "flexible power weaver" is said by Mela to have 31K when they tested. Even the EOD metas are hostile to sword weavers since phase-shifted trolls any melee-only player by not letting you DPS whatsoever for a certain timeframe. Even a so-called easy mode scepter weaver testing in benchmark is 35K and has same complexity as a 2 weapon spec.
 

 

I don't find  fire/hybrid weaver rotation complex.  You need good APM and some sense/knowledge about cooldowns, but all you want to do is to loop the 2 buffs on attunement swap and try to no waste weaveself ; otherwise it is button mash compared to many other specs.
I think what people means by hard to play isn't the dps or the rotation, but just standing here alive and find the good people to sustain you with boons etc.

Edited by Zhaid Zhem.6508
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51 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

I don't find  fire/hybrid weaver rotation complex.  You need good APM and some sense/knowledge about cooldowns, but all you want to do is to loop the 2 buffs on attunement swap and try to no waste weaveself ; otherwise it is button mash compared to many other specs.
I think what people means by hard to play isn't the dps or the rotation, but just standing here alive and find the good people to sustain you with boons etc.

Whether you want to call it difficult or not it is both more complicated and more susceptible to outside factors like movement, positioning, boons than most (if not all) other specs.  There should either be a payoff for that or a serious QoL upgrade to mitigate those disadvantages.  Selfish DPS doesn't need these additional limitations.

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9 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

The irony is that this is one of the reasons why I made this thread in the player help section.  The mechanist's high auto damage came as a surprise to Mukluk, but I've known about it for three weeks now.  If given the proper outside boons, the auto damage combined with the mech can reach the 27k-30k range, making it theoretically the strongest low-effort build in the game.  A few other standouts are staff daredevil, revenant with toggles, and axe condi mirage.

It is unfortunate that ele doesn't get these kinds of benefits.  It isn't good design to have the baseline damage vary so wildly between professions, or even between weapons on the same profession.  To keep this relevant to catalyst, the hammer has exceptionally low auto damage for... no real discernable reason.  It's not like the benchmark aspirants are sitting there while auto attacking with it.  Auto damage isn't just a baseline, it is the point of regression for mistakes and unforeseen circumstances.  Having the auto attacks on hammer be low doesn't balance it against anything; it just makes the hammer overly-punishing for mistakes.  

That's an AWESOME thread BTW ... it matches my own experience pretty closely but I have never measured it like you have. People were laughing at me because I suggested Mechanist has all the ingredients for a massive nerf. This is just more evidence of that.

Specifically for Ele, I have always had a problem recommending as a class to low capable players. I agree that hammer Catalyst autos seem low for no apparent reasoning. Perhaps it's a conscious decision based on access to the many finishers? Maybe an offset because of access to #3? Ele in general SEEMS intentionally 'busy' for people that like that kind of playstyle so I'm not really surprised at your findings. Again, it's not unreasonable to me that Anet gives a variety of engagement levels through the classes. 

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On 3/17/2022 at 11:18 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

Its harsh to say but most ele Problems are l2p problems.

 

It's also simply wrong.

 

Tempest got hit disproportionately hard by the 5 man changes that didn't compensate any of the damage they did (Time Warp is another huge oversight).

 

Catalyst is mega trash and still super clunky. Not even that hard to pull off, it's just anything but smooth with how hammer 3 was designed.

 

Weaver can be strong but is top 1 spec dependent on 100% Alacrity, has the ramp up of a condi spec and requires burst windows of power specs with Weave Self which also has a small ramp up. The latter is irrelevant at the Golem and about phases and exposed and an issue that other classes don't have to worry about to this extent. Unlike the weaker Power Weaver the playstyle might be a bit piano but isn't difficult once you wrap your head around the base concept: press your 3 skills as often as you can, everything else follows naturally.

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2 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 

I don't find  fire/hybrid weaver rotation complex.  You need good APM and some sense/knowledge about cooldowns, but all you want to do is to loop the 2 buffs on attunement swap and try to no waste weaveself ; otherwise it is button mash compared to many other specs.
I think what people means by hard to play isn't the dps or the rotation, but just standing here alive and find the good people to sustain you with boons etc.

Classic Stockholm syndrome or what they call coping mechanisms? Condi willbender with just scepter+torch gets 37.7K , scepter+torch scourge has been 37K+ since torment changes, and single shortbow soulbeast has been 33K for years. 33K is more or less cQB/quick harbinger/pBS level. Why would someone that isn't a masochist or "ele main" waste effort learning hybrid weaver when realistically any face-roll spec can do more in an actual environment that isn't just smacking the boss.
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1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Whether you want to call it difficult or not it is both more complicated and more susceptible to outside factors like movement, positioning, boons than most (if not all) other specs.  There should either be a payoff for that or a serious QoL upgrade to mitigate those disadvantages.  Selfish DPS doesn't need these additional limitations.

Exactly, baseline (~33-35K, i.e. above supports' DPS) should be achievable without juggling four attunements considering water is generally not significant damage-wise for most builds, the closest you get on elementalist right now is grieving condi tempest on fire attunement only with scepter and condi weaver scepter with fire+earth. Those still have delays on damage. I wouldn't consider the power sword weaver attaining this baseline due to requiring 10+ might to actually have Power Overwhelming and if you have to deal with phase-shifted or a mechanic you drop to zero DPS : even the benchmark is merely 37K now after the EOR changes. In addition, I have no idea why water auto on sword in PVE is so low DPS, if you look at staff on revenant or mace on firebrand it heals other people more reliably and does more DPS : I'd rather lose the AoE of the heal and have that shifted onto the riptide (2) to make it stronger resustain.
By default catalyst isn't able to do this two atttunement style play with swapping to 3rd/4th attunement for sustain because of how much damage is loaded onto the hammer orb and jade spheres. On top of that if you lose crescent wind (air hammer orb) on a power build you lose 7% crit chance. In the initial EOD betas I already commented that if more DPS were shifted onto the skills rather than hammer orbs tick damage it would be better. For example if they increased the defensive value beyond 5% incoming damage at least in PVE (although upping it in other modes would be positive that may be debatable) similar to Rock Barrier on scepter.

It's also relevant for PVP/WVW since if the auto-attacks on hammer with air/fire are worse than staff for example with half the range and zero cleave/piercing it is not balanced properly.

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