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Thoughts on latest changes concerning Jade Sea.


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First, I realize there was a big problem that needed to be addressed. I also understand the thought process behind the Meta.

Where my thoughts come in are on the subject of purchasing the Turtle Egg.

 

What I have observed was that a week before the release of sales, the map was very full and there were many runs for completion. Now though the maps are empty. Now those coming up that weren't here for the start of the expansion have little hope of getting the meta done. It's really sad to see people so mad for completion dump everyone else simply because they have the mount already, have already completed the meta and just don't care.

 

2nd point. The Fractal. This is next to impossible to get a group for. NOBODY seems to want to queue for it now. If you do get a group and someone even so much as mentions that they don't know what to do, many people just up and leave. This really aggravates me to know end. REMEMBER at one time EVERYONE had to learn the fractal!

 

I guess my observations come down to this. Making it easy to get the egg has made it kitten near impossible to complete everything needed to raise the mount. Nobody wants to deal with it anymore. It seems some adjustments are going to be sorely needed before all is said and done. ANET has made it difficult in the past for mounts but people actually tried to help. Going after the griffon, I still see people willing to help but this turtle business is a major fiasco.

 

I really feel that this mount was made overly difficult to obtain which now only widens the elitist gap further. For a game made to promote players working together, well lets just say that for the most part only a very few actually want to help.

 

And for those of us who do not want a guild, best of luck to you because NOBODY in this game gives a kitten if you are a solo player.

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I hope they continue to nerf it as the zone dies so that it becomes possible for the majority and is just a fun side meta with no rewards but at least possible without needing Raid Requirements to beat. needs more nerfs still but its more of a start at least. 

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1 hour ago, Unyque.6189 said:

First, I realize there was a big problem that needed to be addressed. I also understand the thought process behind the Meta.

Where my thoughts come in are on the subject of purchasing the Turtle Egg.

 

What I have observed was that a week before the release of sales, the map was very full and there were many runs for completion. Now though the maps are empty. Now those coming up that weren't here for the start of the expansion have little hope of getting the meta done. It's really sad to see people so mad for completion dump everyone else simply because they have the mount already, have already completed the meta and just don't care.

 

2nd point. The Fractal. This is next to impossible to get a group for. NOBODY seems to want to queue for it now. If you do get a group and someone even so much as mentions that they don't know what to do, many people just up and leave. This really aggravates me to know end. REMEMBER at one time EVERYONE had to learn the fractal!

 

I guess my observations come down to this. Making it easy to get the egg has made it kitten near impossible to complete everything needed to raise the mount. Nobody wants to deal with it anymore. It seems some adjustments are going to be sorely needed before all is said and done. ANET has made it difficult in the past for mounts but people actually tried to help. Going after the griffon, I still see people willing to help but this turtle business is a major fiasco.

 

I really feel that this mount was made overly difficult to obtain which now only widens the elitist gap further. For a game made to promote players working together, well lets just say that for the most part only a very few actually want to help.

 

And for those of us who do not want a guild, best of luck to you because NOBODY in this game gives a kitten if you are a solo player.

You almost seem to be blaming players for not wanting to participate in this meta when the design is complete kitten.  Who wants to waste 2 hours doing boring events and then an admittedly pretty epic event that fails most of the time and rewards nothing when you do?  You're kitten right I noped out of that!  Do I owe you 2 hours of boredom and frustration for nothing?  No, I don't!

The "fractal" meaning the Kaineng strike?  I don't know what you're on about.  I opened up LFG and saw 3 groups for it in the middle of the day today.  Joined one that listed no requirements and we got it on the first go.  We didn't even discuss mechanics or bother with group comp.  Just went in and facerolled it.  It looks all complicated but it's really pretty forgiving and people want to do it for more than just the turtle collection.

I'm a solo player and I wasn't particularly interested in the turtle.  But I had the day off work today and I ran out of other masteries to work on.  I had done enough DE to have the writs to buy the egg so I just knocked out the collection no problem.  I didn't even bother with my guilds.  All done by pickups on a random weekday without issue.

 

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Guess i'm never getting those ascended weapons from unlocked elites... 😕 

But i would never blame the players. 

Anet is the one who balances every content around golem DPS numbers and forgets that this is not how open world works.

And they made a ridiculously overtuned meta where you have to spend 2 hours for it to fail because guess what, raid players do raids, not open world, and even they can't reach the benchmarks. Casual people do open world metas and content.

So of course no one wants to do it cause honestly, not a lot of people have 2 horus to spend on the game, let alone spend it all on one meta that's going to fail. This has nothing to do with the egg, and everything to do with respecting your players.

Drakkar is "hard", i've seen it fail 4 times in a row with full squads. But no one complains about that because you don't have to do every event on the map for 2 hours before you even get a chance to try it. You just start the event and go.

This meta needs a redesign.

Edited by Veprovina.4876
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21 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Guess i'm never getting those ascended weapons from unlocked elites... 😕 

But i would never blame the players. 

Anet is the one who balances every content around golem DPS numbers and forgets that this is not how open world works.

And they made a ridiculously overtuned meta where you have to spend 2 hours for it to fail because guess what, raid players do raids, not open world, and even they can't reach the benchmarks. Casual people do open world metas and content.

So of course no one wants to do it cause honestly, not a lot of people have 2 horus to spend on the game, let alone spend it all on one meta that's going to fail. This has nothing to do with the egg, and everything to do with respecting your players.

Drakkar is "hard", i've seen it fail 4 times in a row with full squads. But no one complains about that because you don't have to do every event on the map for 2 hours before you even get a chance to try it. You just start the event and go.

This meta needs a redesign.

You know, you make a good point there. I have seen many other meta's or bosses fail before. And no one really has ever batted an eye. I remember when Teq used to fail, but because it didn't require a 2 hour investment, people just moved on and there was never really any complaints. Then you have this place, that requires 2 hours (3 if you want to organise it correctly with your raid) and rewards nothing if you fail, and almost next to nothing if you win. Doesn't make much sense that this meta came from this studio like this. 

Every update now they have changed it, and will have to continue to change it. Really feels like when they said at the start "our data shows its being completed often enough" was just trying to what, rile us all up? 

 

Give us something for our time and even fails would have caused much less issue. If each attempt over the time gave 10 or 20 or 30 or so direct gold daily then people would come back and keep trying. Right now, I just don't understand that their improved rewards is a single item that will progressively get cheaper and be worth less over time. That you only get... if you win. 

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25 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

So of course no one wants to do it cause honestly, not a lot of people have 2 horus to spend on the game, let alone spend it all on one meta that's going to fail.

This is a common problem I find with this game's events. Too many metas that just take too long. Even if you have the time, it can still be exhausting. It's no wonder so many metas struggle for participation: people are probably getting exhausted doing a full run and then need a major break.

As an example, I just did dragonfall meta, most of it (some of camp progress was already done when I came in) and it took a lot out of me. Not just because it was long and a lot to do, but on top of that, we had a troll map closing message and luckily we had an epic commander who was able to walk everybody through it each step of the way and get us doing it expediently so we were able to pull it off with a few minutes to spare before map closed. But still, time investment: too much. Broken map closing: making things worse. Desire to do that again: 0.

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11 hours ago, Unyque.6189 said:

because they have the mount already, have already completed the meta and just don't care

They don‘t care because it isn‘t fun to participate in the meta.

And this isn‘t just about the meta itself, but also the necessary organization due to many factors around the meta (having to join full maps, requiring joining the map minutes to hours in advance, having to rely on others knowing what they do, hoping RNG with bite/tail is good etc.)

Why waste 2h doing something you don‘t enjoy and is frustrating, when you could do something fun instead? People will generally move to things that are rewarding for them, either lootwise or funwise. At the current state, DE is neither and a huge hassle.
The only thing that has changed is that players aren‘t forced to do it anymore due to the egg.

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10 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

You know, you make a good point there. I have seen many other meta's or bosses fail before. And no one really has ever batted an eye. I remember when Teq used to fail, but because it didn't require a 2 hour investment, people just moved on and there was never really any complaints. Then you have this place, that requires 2 hours (3 if you want to organise it correctly with your raid) and rewards nothing if you fail, and almost next to nothing if you win. Doesn't make much sense that this meta came from this studio like this. 

Every update now they have changed it, and will have to continue to change it. Really feels like when they said at the start "our data shows its being completed often enough" was just trying to what, rile us all up? 

 

Give us something for our time and even fails would have caused much less issue. If each attempt over the time gave 10 or 20 or 30 or so direct gold daily then people would come back and keep trying. Right now, I just don't understand that their improved rewards is a single item that will progressively get cheaper and be worth less over time. That you only get... if you win. 

RIght? There's a bunch of hard metas in this game, Drakkar, Dragonfall, Chak Gerent... Even verdant brink, but none of those require you to be on them from map reset to not be able to complete them, but get a chance at completing them. And that's i think what ultimately killed this meta. All the "chance" and "rng". Pepople like predictable. They like to learn a thing, then know how to do the thing. Not wonder and guess what's going to happen.

 

And even Chak Gerent and VB metas that have a day and night cycle, or even Auric Basin (although i wouldn't consider that one hard nowdays), you don't have to do the entire day cycle first to be able to get a chance at finishing the Octovine attack. And when they failed - and they failed a lot in the beginning (i remember Octovine panic very well 🤣) - people just tried again later, but they didn't have to remain at map reset to again get every event so that they again have only a chance of finishing it... 

 

And even now when Chak Gerent or Drakkar fail, people just go "meh" and move on cause they didn't spend 2 hours preparing, and then another hour fighting  the boss.

 

Also, seeing commends here, reddit, under youtube videos about this meta... People don't really like where this is headed, that they'll be forced to learn raid rotations just to complete open world content... And i'm not sure i like that either, and i do raids occasionaly myself... A lot of comments are about the time investment, i mean, people have kids, obligations, work, not everyone can just sit for 2 hours at the game and then be fine by not being rewarded for it if it fails (or rewarded with not much if you do complete it). Furthermore, the vast majority of people really don't like Raids or raiders.

Like, say what you want, but this is kind of a fact. And while i enjoy the occasional raid, i can see their point. A lot of the game balance in open world is done with freaking golem benchmarks and how some class or another does at a certain raid boss. This is not how the class does in the majority of the game, let alone WvW yet stuff like Torment changes spill from raids into other modes, and what was a buff for raids ended up being straight up nerf for WvW. So why aren't Raids treated like WvW or PvP, as a separate balance path? Or, if someone is overperforming on a boss, why alwas nerfs? Why not buff the boss, or change its mechanics to compensate? 
That would probably be too much for this balancing team, it's easier to change numbers, make 3 other related things broken in the process and call it a day.

 

And this is exactly what happened with Dragon's end. Some child prodigy raider benched 45k on a golem by meticulously remembering and practicing a complex skill rotation with all buffs option turned on, and Anet probably took that as a fact that everyone can do it, and tuned the encounter to those numbers. 

 

But oh, it doesn't work that way does it? Especially when you have to dodge, do mechanics, moving boss, moving players, 1000 of other minor stuff to think about. Most raiders can't do benchmark numbers, let alone open world players. 

 

So why is every "balance" done around golem benchmarks that only 0.5% of raiders can do? 

Just look at what happened to Catalyst! It never overperformed in a relistic scenario in an average player's hands... So why a 10k damage nerf? Or what's happening to mesmers since raids were introduced?

And well, open world people don't want a raid meta in open world, and i dont' want either. I want to go to raids to do hard stuff, not open world. I mean, people don't even want to try strikes cause they're afraid. That's not really a selling point, that people are afraid to do content cause they'll be made feel bad for not being the top ceiling of their respective professions... 

I don't like that trajectory, where Anet wants to push this... Oneshot mechanics (looking at you Echovald meta), 2 hour raidlike open world meta events, idk... People are not having fun with it. 

 

10 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

This is a common problem I find with this game's events. Too many metas that just take too long. Even if you have the time, it can still be exhausting. It's no wonder so many metas struggle for participation: people are probably getting exhausted doing a full run and then need a major break.

As an example, I just did dragonfall meta, most of it (some of camp progress was already done when I came in) and it took a lot out of me. Not just because it was long and a lot to do, but on top of that, we had a troll map closing message and luckily we had an epic commander who was able to walk everybody through it each step of the way and get us doing it expediently so we were able to pull it off with a few minutes to spare before map closed. But still, time investment: too much. Broken map closing: making things worse. Desire to do that again: 0.

Yup! Dragonfal takes long, but there's also periods of relief and waiting. So you get to catch your breath before the next event starts. And it ends with a pretty epic boss that, even if it fails (which, it doesn't ever now, nor did it previously fail as much as DE now), it's a fun fight with defined mechanics that you can learn, not rely on rng. Dragon's end meta? I was beetle racing from event to event to buff up my damage so that i even get a chance to contribute to the last fight, and after the preevents, the event just starts, and again, beetle racing from event to event to complete them, and then beetle race to the main event, and do mechanics, and you're already tired from beetle racing other events, i mean, who thought this was a good idea?

I'm not saying everything has to be casual, i don't mind harder content, but for god's sake, space it out, or cut something out to make it enjoyable. People generally don't enjoy stress and that's what DE is. No wonder no one does it anymore.

 

I do dragonfall like, once a month, when i get enough machettes from that ley convereter thingy. And after i'm done, i'm DONE. Like, i'll get even more machettes from participation, and i can start the even again, but i'm done, no thank you, need a break. 

 

PoF bounties were a good idea, except also poor rewards for non legendary bounties so people rarely do them, they only do legendaries. But that's a great design which puts event management into the players hands. Take a bounty whenever you want (and is avaialble), and organize around your time. Now if champions would drop something worthwile, i'm sure people would do more bounties. 

 

Lastly, the broken map closing should really be addressed. I mean, all techincal stuff should be addressed before design stuff, but that's not always a luxury, so i think they first maybe need to redesing the DE meta. 

But Anet is not in the habit of admiting when they make a mistake, though, in this case, and what they did to Catalyst, i think it's time to start being more humble. Everyone makes mistakes Anet. You tried something, it doesn't work, time to change it.

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23 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

PoF bounties were a good idea, except also poor rewards for non legendary bounties so people rarely do them, they only do legendaries. But that's a great design which puts event management into the players hands. Take a bounty whenever you want (and is avaialble), and organize around your time. Now if champions would drop something worthwile, i'm sure people would do more bounties.

This -was- a big disappointment about EoD. Bounties were a flawed, but promising option for PvE. I def agree that rewards, even offering a bounty hunters currency or gold rewards like an actual bounty would help the playability and engagement, but all in all, bounties were a great idea that Anet should have kept in EoD and worked on.

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39 minutes ago, Altonese.6542 said:

This -was- a big disappointment about EoD. Bounties were a flawed, but promising option for PvE. I def agree that rewards, even offering a bounty hunters currency or gold rewards like an actual bounty would help the playability and engagement, but all in all, bounties were a great idea that Anet should have kept in EoD and worked on.

I agree.  I enjoy having champions-on-demand like they did with HoT/PoF and I wish they had included this feature in EoD as well.  I also wish they would update the unstable magic effects.  Some of them are just not fun at all (looking at you, phase shifted!).

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1 hour ago, Altonese.6542 said:

This -was- a big disappointment about EoD. Bounties were a flawed, but promising option for PvE. I def agree that rewards, even offering a bounty hunters currency or gold rewards like an actual bounty would help the playability and engagement, but all in all, bounties were a great idea that Anet should have kept in EoD and worked on.

Yes, but idk, the map design in EoD is confusing enough that i think people would haev some trouble getting to the bounties. Path of Fire is a desert, and largely flat to accomodate mounts that came with it. So navigation is not an issue. But i often get lost in Echovald, and Dragon's end is what it is, better not stuff bounties there too lol.

 

But yeah, i liked bounties and if there ever was a time to buff bounty rewards it's now, so they don't become dead content. You don't want your people to just flock to one most profitable gold/hr grind, so bounty hunter currency like you suggested would kinda aleviate that. In general, map currency in this game is a great design choice that has kept maps alive and well, well after their prime, so making somethign like that with bounties would be great!

 

39 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I agree.  I enjoy having champions-on-demand like they did with HoT/PoF and I wish they had included this feature in EoD as well.  I also wish they would update the unstable magic effects.  Some of them are just not fun at all (looking at you, phase shifted!).

 

Yup! But as i explained in the above quote, it might be confusing for EoD maps to find bounties on. They're packed enough already, and are made around new masteries, skiffs and jade bots, idk if bounties would fit. 

Still, it's a great PoF feature that's kinda neglected and has been for a while. Buffing bounties would make players go to PoF maps for more than just juundu meta and simmilar. I'd like to see that.

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I don't understand how they can go from Drizzlewood to this.  That map was extremely player-friendly, and you were never punished for hopping in and out based on the time you had.  To go from that to the Soo-won meta just blows my mind, in a bad way.

Edited by Vaen.2605
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9 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

  

RIght? There's a bunch of hard metas in this game, Drakkar, Dragonfall, Chak Gerent... Even verdant brink, but none of those require you to be on them from map reset to not be able to complete them, but get a chance at completing them. And that's i think what ultimately killed this meta. All the "chance" and "rng". Pepople like predictable. They like to learn a thing, then know how to do the thing. Not wonder and guess what's going to happen.

 

And even Chak Gerent and VB metas that have a day and night cycle, or even Auric Basin (although i wouldn't consider that one hard nowdays), you don't have to do the entire day cycle first to be able to get a chance at finishing the Octovine attack. And when they failed - and they failed a lot in the beginning (i remember Octovine panic very well 🤣) - people just tried again later, but they didn't have to remain at map reset to again get every event so that they again have only a chance of finishing it... 

 

And even now when Chak Gerent or Drakkar fail, people just go "meh" and move on cause they didn't spend 2 hours preparing, and then another hour fighting  the boss.

 

Also, seeing commends here, reddit, under youtube videos about this meta... People don't really like where this is headed, that they'll be forced to learn raid rotations just to complete open world content... And i'm not sure i like that either, and i do raids occasionaly myself... A lot of comments are about the time investment, i mean, people have kids, obligations, work, not everyone can just sit for 2 hours at the game and then be fine by not being rewarded for it if it fails (or rewarded with not much if you do complete it). Furthermore, the vast majority of people really don't like Raids or raiders.

Like, say what you want, but this is kind of a fact. And while i enjoy the occasional raid, i can see their point. A lot of the game balance in open world is done with freaking golem benchmarks and how some class or another does at a certain raid boss. This is not how the class does in the majority of the game, let alone WvW yet stuff like Torment changes spill from raids into other modes, and what was a buff for raids ended up being straight up nerf for WvW. So why aren't Raids treated like WvW or PvP, as a separate balance path? Or, if someone is overperforming on a boss, why alwas nerfs? Why not buff the boss, or change its mechanics to compensate? 
That would probably be too much for this balancing team, it's easier to change numbers, make 3 other related things broken in the process and call it a day.

 

And this is exactly what happened with Dragon's end. Some child prodigy raider benched 45k on a golem by meticulously remembering and practicing a complex skill rotation with all buffs option turned on, and Anet probably took that as a fact that everyone can do it, and tuned the encounter to those numbers. 

 

But oh, it doesn't work that way does it? Especially when you have to dodge, do mechanics, moving boss, moving players, 1000 of other minor stuff to think about. Most raiders can't do benchmark numbers, let alone open world players. 

 

So why is every "balance" done around golem benchmarks that only 0.5% of raiders can do? 

Just look at what happened to Catalyst! It never overperformed in a relistic scenario in an average player's hands... So why a 10k damage nerf? Or what's happening to mesmers since raids were introduced?

And well, open world people don't want a raid meta in open world, and i dont' want either. I want to go to raids to do hard stuff, not open world. I mean, people don't even want to try strikes cause they're afraid. That's not really a selling point, that people are afraid to do content cause they'll be made feel bad for not being the top ceiling of their respective professions... 

I don't like that trajectory, where Anet wants to push this... Oneshot mechanics (looking at you Echovald meta), 2 hour raidlike open world meta events, idk... People are not having fun with it. 

 

Yup! Dragonfal takes long, but there's also periods of relief and waiting. So you get to catch your breath before the next event starts. And it ends with a pretty epic boss that, even if it fails (which, it doesn't ever now, nor did it previously fail as much as DE now), it's a fun fight with defined mechanics that you can learn, not rely on rng. Dragon's end meta? I was beetle racing from event to event to buff up my damage so that i even get a chance to contribute to the last fight, and after the preevents, the event just starts, and again, beetle racing from event to event to complete them, and then beetle race to the main event, and do mechanics, and you're already tired from beetle racing other events, i mean, who thought this was a good idea?

I'm not saying everything has to be casual, i don't mind harder content, but for god's sake, space it out, or cut something out to make it enjoyable. People generally don't enjoy stress and that's what DE is. No wonder no one does it anymore.

 

I do dragonfall like, once a month, when i get enough machettes from that ley convereter thingy. And after i'm done, i'm DONE. Like, i'll get even more machettes from participation, and i can start the even again, but i'm done, no thank you, need a break. 

 

PoF bounties were a good idea, except also poor rewards for non legendary bounties so people rarely do them, they only do legendaries. But that's a great design which puts event management into the players hands. Take a bounty whenever you want (and is avaialble), and organize around your time. Now if champions would drop something worthwile, i'm sure people would do more bounties. 

 

Lastly, the broken map closing should really be addressed. I mean, all techincal stuff should be addressed before design stuff, but that's not always a luxury, so i think they first maybe need to redesing the DE meta. 

But Anet is not in the habit of admiting when they make a mistake, though, in this case, and what they did to Catalyst, i think it's time to start being more humble. Everyone makes mistakes Anet. You tried something, it doesn't work, time to change it.

 

It honestly seems to be the theme behind EoD. Like an entirely different Dev team designed the entire expansion then the devs we have had for the past 9 years. 9 years this game has been incredibly alt friendly, the best alt friendly game in the genre, then they go and make a character based mastery? You need to craft/buy a jade bot for every character and the best stats are level 10, which is expensive if you have a lot of characters... instead of just, making it account bound like mounts and gliders? Everything in the game is account based... but Jade bots? 

At least them nerfing older content like they did to dungeons, to Fractal CM's, was  their usual take. What they did with all these updates was like, take things away from people, nerfed open world builds and blamed raiders (because raiders totally take skills that lower their dps on purpose) Nerf fractal cm's, pushed everything into strikes and pushed people into the final meta via the story, the final meta that wants to take people who do everything in the game, no matter what it is, and make them fight a raid boss. 

For nine years we've all done our own thing. TP barons, Fractal players, raiders/strikers, Open world players, Fashion war players, RP players, Story pushers, Griffon gliders, World boss farmers, solo players, Meta farmers, ect ect. All separated and able to have fun playing gw2 our own way. Then EoD drops and their big finale is to try and make every single one of those players, do this meta for something that was HEAVILY Advertised as part of this expansion? Something they said would be easier then skyscale and beetle? Its spilt the player base in half and people are leaving. I've seen guilds that have never had drama for all the years they have existed, have drama over this due to this split. 

While we wait so long for the fight, why can't we be bouncing between area's like in Drizzlewood? After the first lower meta is done, do we afk and wait for top? NO we are going from champ to champ farming chests. Imagine if they took that part out. That when you beat the ice dragon up north, imagine if no chests spawned. (seriously, one of those chests is better then beating (or more often then not, failing) Soo-Won sometimes, yet alone all of them)

Not to mention most of the zone is closed off with WP's locked most of the time, unlike again Drizzlewood, which allows para-dropping from high up anywhere on the map eventually as you push forward at every single location. Dragonfall? Now that feels like an epic finale, the dragon you are fighting is the size of the entire area. And then afterwards? You get to again, bounce between champs and open chests, that eventually give a free ascended. 

Bounties was a neat idea, but wouldn't work here, do we even have something like a new 32 slot bag to unlock like Sandswept isles? A new EoD ley line converter? Ya know, any content that actually going to boost us besides just ViT stat inflation from the bot and some "Your jade bot has found something!"? Even the table from the coast is more of an account buff then owning EoD's entire expansion? 

Edited by Gorem.8104
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58 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 

It honestly seems to be the theme behind EoD. Like an entirely different Dev team designed the entire expansion then the devs we have had for the past 9 years. 9 years this game has been incredibly alt friendly, the best alt friendly game in the genre, then they go and make a character based mastery? You need to craft/buy a jade bot for every character and the best stats are level 10, which is expensive if you have a lot of characters... instead of just, making it account bound like mounts and gliders? Everything in the game is account based... but Jade bots? 

Yeah, at times it seems like the entirely different team did this expansion. I mean, i had fun, and i don't regret buying it, it's just that, some decisions made are baffling. Like jade bots. And ok, you could argue that they did it as a gold sink, and boy is it working, sigils and runes that used to cost 2 silver are now 60+... But it sure doesn't follow the usual GW2 philosophy of theme park MMO where you unlock everything account wide mostly. 

58 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

At least them nerfing older content like they did to dungeons, to Fractal CM's, was  their usual take. What they did with all these updates was like, take things away from people, nerfed open world builds and blamed raiders (because raiders totally take skills that lower their dps on purpose) Nerf fractal cm's, pushed everything into strikes and pushed people into the final meta via the story, the final meta that wants to take people who do everything in the game, no matter what it is, and make them fight a raid boss. 

Oooh yeah, i totally forgot about what they did to Fractal CM's! 🤣

That was kinda the obvious push to 10 man content. 

The thing is - this is not that kind of game. Ever since they added Raids as the "ultimate gw2 experience" or ultimate challange or whatever, things have only gotten worse and worse. Especially because if 0.5% of players do a golem benchmark on some boss, that class gets nerfed. Doesn't matter if it affects WvW, doesn't matter if it affects PvP, it gets nerfed, not just numbers that are separate across game modes, but traits, skills and whole systems like how torment and confusion works. They changed torment and confusion to accomodate Raid bosses. Brilliant!

And i wonder how long it will take, and how much stuff has to break on classes for Anet to realize, you can't introduce a new element into the game (like a new elite), without adjusting the world around it, adjusting monster numbers, raid boss numbers, mechanics, etc. 

No, they just nerf something that never was a problem in 90% of situations because it overperformed on the golem.

kitten the golem! The game isn't people logging in and bashing the golem, it's open world metas and WvW. Raids, even fractals, are done by the smallest number of the population. So why am i getting punished when someone with the skill i'll never have makes something look better than it actually is?

And then they wonder why people don't want to do Strikes. I've seen people in game and posts from people al over being literally afraid to try strikes. Are strikes scary? No, but raiders and their toxic behaviour is... Which again, Anet is responsible for, they could have nipped it in the bud when this was all starting. People have had tons of great suggestions how to minimise bad raid behaviour, but did Anet listen? No.

And now they want everyone to do strikes, like, it's obligatory, you can't escape it or you won't get the thing. With tons of mechanics, needing to do rotations, and stuff, and people don't want it. Not because they want to 1111 at events, but because they're afraid they're going to get bullied by someone if they don't reach what some player managed at the golem.

But guess what? Most can't reach golem numbers. Most don't spend hours training their rotations, minmaxing builds and idk, doing hand-eye coordination excercises or whatever you need to reach that number.

Most want to enjoy the game. 

And then, what happens is, you need that golem DPS to succeed (DE meta proves this), and there's no leeway. Players that are extremely good aren't getting rewarded for being great by clearing stuff in a really fast and impressive way, and players who are average are getting punished because they can't afford to train this skill. And casual players, real casual players that have too busy lives to play more than a few hours a week are barred from the content. Which ok, not everyone has to do everyting, but Anet made it clear that everyone will now have to if they want all their masteries and some open world achievements. And they sent a message they're pushing raid bosses into the open world. 

Anet, you missed your target audience. 

58 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

For nine years we've all done our own thing. TP barons, Fractal players, raiders/strikers, Open world players, Fashion war players, RP players, Story pushers, Griffon gliders, World boss farmers, solo players, Meta farmers, ect ect. All separated and able to have fun playing gw2 our own way. Then EoD drops and their big finale is to try and make every single one of those players, do this meta for something that was HEAVILY Advertised as part of this expansion? Something they said would be easier then skyscale and beetle? Its spilt the player base in half and people are leaving. I've seen guilds that have never had drama for all the years they have existed, have drama over this due to this split. 

Yup. The toxicity is up. You cant suddenly force players to do something they never either could or liked, and expect everyone to just go along with it cause mommy Anet said so. Majority of their players are open world players and they get hit by this the most and why? Just, no valid reason.  

58 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

While we wait so long for the fight, why can't we be bouncing between area's like in Drizzlewood? After the first lower meta is done, do we afk and wait for top? NO we are going from champ to champ farming chests. Imagine if they took that part out. That when you beat the ice dragon up north, imagine if no chests spawned. (seriously, one of those chests is better then beating (or more often then not, failing) Soo-Won sometimes, yet alone all of them)

Not to mention most of the zone is closed off with WP's locked most of the time, unlike again Drizzlewood, which allows para-dropping from high up anywhere on the map eventually as you push forward at every single location. Dragonfall? Now that feels like an epic finale, the dragon you are fighting is the size of the entire area. And then afterwards? You get to again, bounce between champs and open chests, that eventually give a free ascended. 

Bounties was a neat idea, but wouldn't work here, do we even have something like a new 32 slot bag to unlock like Sandswept isles? A new EoD ley line converter? Ya know, any content that actually going to boost us besides just ViT stat inflation from the bot and some "Your jade bot has found something!"? Even the table from the coast is more of an account buff then owning EoD's entire expansion? 

100% agree with everything you said. One of the good things that came out of Icebrood saga is the Drizzlewood map. 

How they went from Dirzzlewood to 3 hours of uninterrupted stress is beyond me. 

 

In the end, i hope Anet gets over their ego, and starts listening to their audience. 

We don't want this. I'm not sure even raiders want this cause they'd rather do instanced content with people they choose, not 40 other people that might not be able to do what's asked of them. 

And players don't mind harder metas. Drakkar gets played every time it's up, Dragonstorm as well! 

They don't even mind longer metas like Dragonfall or Dragon's Stand.

 

They wouldn't even mind strikes if every second mechanic isn't a party wipe, and if you could do them being an average player.

 

What they do mind is badly designed golemfest of a boss with RNG mechanics that you have to prepre 3 hours for and still not be good enough to beat it, leaving you without a reward and wasted time.

 

So for once Anet, admit you made a mistake, and fix it so that people can have fun again.

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Just now, Gorem.8104 said:

At least them nerfing older content like they did to dungeons, to Fractal CM's, was  their usual take. What they did with all these updates was like, take things away from people, nerfed open world builds and blamed raiders (because raiders totally take skills that lower their dps on purpose) Nerf fractal cm's, pushed everything into strikes and pushed people into the final meta via the story, the final meta that wants to take people who do everything in the game, no matter what it is, and make them fight a raid boss. 

For nine years we've all done our own thing. TP barons, Fractal players, raiders/strikers, Open world players, Fashion war players, RP players, Story pushers, Griffon gliders, World boss farmers, solo players, Meta farmers, ect ect. All separated and able to have fun playing gw2 our own way. Then EoD drops and their big finale is to try and make every single one of those players, do this meta for something that was HEAVILY Advertised as part of this expansion? Something they said would be easier then skyscale and beetle? Its spilt the player base in half and people are leaving. I've seen guilds that have never had drama for all the years they have existed, have drama over this due to this split. 

 

So , lets get  straight

You where telling the casuals that if they cannot get the mount , its simply "the way of life" and should focus in the rest of the 99% of the game.

And raiders where coming here telling the casuals " do more dps to skip the mechanics"

And now you are trying (and raiders) to swift the blame and blame the old geezers ?

 

And for what ? So the casuals  rally behind you and become once again "the voice of the community" and go back in Raids ?

Edited by Killthehealersffs.8940
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24 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

So , lets get  straight

You where telling the casuals that if they cannot get the mount , its simply "the way of life" and should focus in the rest of the 99% of the game.

And raiders where coming here telling the casuals " do more dps to skip the mechanics"

And now you are trying (and raiders) to swift the blame and blame the old geezers ?

 

And for what ? So the casuals  rally behind you and become once again "the voice of the community" and go back in Raids ?

Umm i think it's exactly the opposite of what Gorem is saying... 

That part you quoted was just recounting what Anet did... Not how it should be.

 

What are you arguing even here? You're against raidification of open world or for it? Or are you arguing something entirely else, i can't tell by how you wrote your post, sorry. Can you please elaborate?

Edited by Veprovina.4876
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3 hours ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

So , lets get  straight

You where telling the casuals that if they cannot get the mount , its simply "the way of life" and should focus in the rest of the 99% of the game.

And raiders where coming here telling the casuals " do more dps to skip the mechanics"

And now you are trying (and raiders) to swift the blame and blame the old geezers ?

 

And for what ? So the casuals  rally behind you and become once again "the voice of the community" and go back in Raids ?

I was just quoting what Anet did. Its better to keep the game parts separated, it caused no divides and everyone got a long and everyone did their own thing 🙂 The main people I see praise the fight and say 5 mins timer left instantly afterwards always say "in my usual super organised Reid level group" Which kinda, negates their entire argument, as this is open world and should not require you knowing 24 hours in advance the 50 people you will be playing with for open world content, this would actually still be fine however, if it was possible for pugs to do it anyway, as then both could be doing it like it always been. Instead of the only way of doing it via super organisation. 

There's members of Hardstuck now being accused of using alt accounts to tag on a different map, and hiding their main tag on the map they want to do it on. 

Edited by Gorem.8104
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5 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Yeah, at times it seems like the entirely different team did this expansion. I mean, i had fun, and i don't regret buying it, it's just that, some decisions made are baffling. Like jade bots. And ok, you could argue that they did it as a gold sink, and boy is it working, sigils and runes that used to cost 2 silver are now 60+... But it sure doesn't follow the usual GW2 philosophy of theme park MMO where you unlock everything account wide mostly. 

Oooh yeah, i totally forgot about what they did to Fractal CM's! 🤣

That was kinda the obvious push to 10 man content. 

The thing is - this is not that kind of game. Ever since they added Raids as the "ultimate gw2 experience" or ultimate challange or whatever, things have only gotten worse and worse. Especially because if 0.5% of players do a golem benchmark on some boss, that class gets nerfed. Doesn't matter if it affects WvW, doesn't matter if it affects PvP, it gets nerfed, not just numbers that are separate across game modes, but traits, skills and whole systems like how torment and confusion works. They changed torment and confusion to accomodate Raid bosses. Brilliant!

And i wonder how long it will take, and how much stuff has to break on classes for Anet to realize, you can't introduce a new element into the game (like a new elite), without adjusting the world around it, adjusting monster numbers, raid boss numbers, mechanics, etc. 

No, they just nerf something that never was a problem in 90% of situations because it overperformed on the golem.

kitten the golem! The game isn't people logging in and bashing the golem, it's open world metas and WvW. Raids, even fractals, are done by the smallest number of the population. So why am i getting punished when someone with the skill i'll never have makes something look better than it actually is?

And then they wonder why people don't want to do Strikes. I've seen people in game and posts from people al over being literally afraid to try strikes. Are strikes scary? No, but raiders and their toxic behaviour is... Which again, Anet is responsible for, they could have nipped it in the bud when this was all starting. People have had tons of great suggestions how to minimise bad raid behaviour, but did Anet listen? No.

And now they want everyone to do strikes, like, it's obligatory, you can't escape it or you won't get the thing. With tons of mechanics, needing to do rotations, and stuff, and people don't want it. Not because they want to 1111 at events, but because they're afraid they're going to get bullied by someone if they don't reach what some player managed at the golem.

But guess what? Most can't reach golem numbers. Most don't spend hours training their rotations, minmaxing builds and idk, doing hand-eye coordination excercises or whatever you need to reach that number.

Most want to enjoy the game. 

And then, what happens is, you need that golem DPS to succeed (DE meta proves this), and there's no leeway. Players that are extremely good aren't getting rewarded for being great by clearing stuff in a really fast and impressive way, and players who are average are getting punished because they can't afford to train this skill. And casual players, real casual players that have too busy lives to play more than a few hours a week are barred from the content. Which ok, not everyone has to do everyting, but Anet made it clear that everyone will now have to if they want all their masteries and some open world achievements. And they sent a message they're pushing raid bosses into the open world. 

Anet, you missed your target audience. 

Yup. The toxicity is up. You cant suddenly force players to do something they never either could or liked, and expect everyone to just go along with it cause mommy Anet said so. Majority of their players are open world players and they get hit by this the most and why? Just, no valid reason.  

100% agree with everything you said. One of the good things that came out of Icebrood saga is the Drizzlewood map. 

How they went from Dirzzlewood to 3 hours of uninterrupted stress is beyond me. 

 

In the end, i hope Anet gets over their ego, and starts listening to their audience. 

We don't want this. I'm not sure even raiders want this cause they'd rather do instanced content with people they choose, not 40 other people that might not be able to do what's asked of them. 

And players don't mind harder metas. Drakkar gets played every time it's up, Dragonstorm as well! 

They don't even mind longer metas like Dragonfall or Dragon's Stand.

 

They wouldn't even mind strikes if every second mechanic isn't a party wipe, and if you could do them being an average player.

 

What they do mind is badly designed golemfest of a boss with RNG mechanics that you have to prepre 3 hours for and still not be good enough to beat it, leaving you without a reward and wasted time.

 

So for once Anet, admit you made a mistake, and fix it so that people can have fun again.

 

Yeah, essentially, the balls in Anet's court now. Do they admit their mistake and fix things, or will they not fix things and just hope we all forget and keep whoever stays? To be honest, having this conversation with you and reading what you've typed has calmed me down immensely, I'm going to just go back to what I find fun in the game, wvw and a bit of solo open world play. 

It was great to talk to someone like yourself, thank you 🙂

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4 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 

Yeah, essentially, the balls in Anet's court now. Do they admit their mistake and fix things, or will they not fix things and just hope we all forget and keep whoever stays? To be honest, having this conversation with you and reading what you've typed has calmed me down immensely, I'm going to just go back to what I find fun in the game, wvw and a bit of solo open world play. 

It was great to talk to someone like yourself, thank you 🙂

Thank you as well, was a nice chat! 🙂

And you're right, Anet hopefully reads comments, not just here but also on reddit and youtube videos, they should be aware that DE meta just doesn't work. So the ball is in their court. 

I'm gonna go back to some meta trains, gotta farm some Amalgamated gemstones. 

And of course, WvW as usual. 😄

Hopefully they fix the meta soon so i can also play EoD, i want that Aurene legendary, and that Virtuoso ascended dagger is just amazing looking! But i need to beat DE to get it.

Edited by Veprovina.4876
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