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Banners are not the Problem. My Vision of Warrior in the Future.


DanAlcedo.3281

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Hi.

Banners or Banner Slave is not the Problem. Its the fact that they are the only identity Warrior has in PvE.

A rework to them wont Fix the issue, as a Buff to them solidifies the Problem and a nerf would make Warrior just simply useless.

 

Here is my Vision of Warrior in the Future.

Trait Changes

  • Place Doubled Standards in Tactics. In the same row as Empowered Allies and Phalanx Strength to create the Offensive Support Trait Core.
  • Replace Soldiers Comfort with Doubled Standards as Roaring Reveille already has the job of Defensive Support.
  • Buff Phalanx Strength.
  • Create a new Trait that fills the now open slot in Discipline.
  • That Trait should be DPS Focused as both other Traits in Major Master  dont serve that purpose.

 

Build Diversity

With these changes, we have the following scenario.

We start with Discipline.

We then have a choice between Strenght and Arms. (Power and Condition)

The third choice becomes:

  • Tactics(Core Warrior) for Group Suppport.
  • Berserker for Condi/Power.
  • Bladesworn for higher Power Dps but situational.

 

Now Buff Spellbreaker in PvP and WvW and TADAA! All 4 Specialization now have a reason to exist.

Add the following and we are golden.

 

General changes

  • Rework Merciless Hammer.
  • Give Arms some polish.
  • Rework Defense.
  • Make the Soldier's Focus Traits the Minors in Tactics. Add a tiny buff to them and add the old Minor Traits into other Tactic Traits.
  • Make Weaponswap 7 seconds baseline and Fast Hands becomes a reduction of 2 seconds.
Edited by DanAlcedo.3281
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  • DanAlcedo.3281 changed the title to Banners are not the Problem. My Vision of Warrior in the Future.

I always was of the idea that perhaps Vigorous Shouts moving to Discipline makes more sense but no need to write down a complicated trait distribution now.

 

Point it, I much, much prefer if anet realizes how traits have to clash with each otherin lines and therefore improve buildcraft without gutting warrior for only being able to run one of these options. You just need to be able to combine the proper things. 

 

And this is why I support for Warrior to receive Alacrity in the Martial Cadence trait, competing with Double Standards and a buffed Phalanx Strength so you can have a warrior who can do Alac at the cost of some Might or less powerful banners and vice versa. All this while in Discipline GMs you get the options of DPS increase and QoL through Axe Mastery, Vigorous Shouts for personal and team sustain oriented play (see, with the ability to play a minor healer/cleanser WITH a second role from tactics, be it Might, Alac or Banners, not very far fetched considering what Supports can do nowadays. Or finally, the flat out QoL that is Burst Mastery.

 

And then you can have a better trait instead of Shrug it off in the place of Double Standards in Discipline and Shrug it off originally can have a better trait to compete with empower allies and actually remove Warrior's Cunning for a more boon oriented trait (so you have the empower offensive buff trait, some healing trait like aoe heal per burst and a boon trait like share some Aegis on allies when using a blast finisher. 

 

I don't know. I like your ideas, I simply get too excited with trait allocation discussions.

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I feel that if you're going to balance warrior out, you need to look at the skill usage. Currently, I barely see anyone using stances outside of PvP, banners are probably the most used, shouts are extremely situational (excluding "For Great Justice!") and, depending on the build, you may or may not want to use them, signets are the fill slots (as they should be, even if I'd like to see them do more), and physical skills are just used for CC (that's all they do, is CC).

 

On top of that, we have the specialization skills. For Berserker, I only ever really see people using Shattering Blow for bleed, and Outrage for longer berserk mode, while Wild Blow and Sundering Leap are extremely situational. In Spellbreaker, we have Featherfoot Grace, Sight beyond Sight, Imminent Threat, and Break Enchantments. I can see use-cases for a few of these, but I'm still confused with Imminent Threat's reasoning. I'd like taunt to be a more prominent feature on the class that's meant to be a big and hulking front-line fighter, and it makes no sense for it to be on Spellbreaker other than an extremely minor PvP situation where you suddenly taunt everyone into attacking you for a huge boost in Adrenaline? I don't PvP much, so take that with a grain of salt. As for Bladesword, there's Flow Stabilizer, which is all I see anyone using in PvE, and then 3 PvP oriented skills in the form of Bulletproof Barrier, Electric Fence, and Dragonspike Mine, each of which has a condition or effect that's better suited to juking players in PvP.

 

None of this is even including Healing or Elite skills, which have their own sets of problems. For baseline, you have Battle Standard, which is largely PvP focused with its ability to revive players on the spot and provide swiftness, but I've gotten some use out of it in PvE during Meta events. Signet of Rage is, I feel, underperforming a ton now, as you basically never have a reason to take it anymore. Rampage is AWFUL (I don't care if it has CC, it being a transformation that lasts for 15 seconds and removes my utility in the form of weaponry is a terrible trade-off), and I think I've seen it used once? Headbutt on Berserker is the easiest pick, as you just get a full adrenaline bar on hit with it. Spellbreaker's is obviously PvP focused. And then Tactical Reload is a great utility Elite that's resigned to a spec focused on doing damage most of the time, and is also an easy pick.

 

For Healing, I don't mind them too much. "To the Limit!" is just a nice heal to have, Mending is good in PvP when goin' against condi classes, Healing Signet needs something else to be more desireable, Defiant Stance is good in PvP when you're against fast attacking classes, or you're surrounded in PvE. There's never not a reason to take Blood Reckoning, as it's just more damage on Berserker, Natural Healing is a nice "reset" after a fight in PvP, so I can kind of see that being used, and then Combat Stimulant is...actually ver good. A small upfront heal with a burst heal after a few seconds, or using it as a utility skill to further your DPS.

Edited by Kalthea.4326
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a rework caused all the issue in 2019, another one will either make the issue bigger or undo it. warrior's visual identity is when they're holding the banner, not playing "catch the banner" game back and forth during the pve instances, it's childish, in fact saying it is an insult to good childish things like engineer's pets, so current banner design is completely stupid. 

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Banners tbh are only warriors primarily identity because - 

Warriors lose basically no DPS using them unlike most boon builds. 

No other proffessions brings the same effects. 

I'd argue changing the boons they provide to ones every proffession can access makes them actually weaker. As it removes warrior from the raid comp in trade of being "quickness wanted" 

So yeah if the changes are too large and replace this could make warrior weaker in the PvE meta. Not stronger

Which I fear is a huge oversight on Anet 

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4 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Banners tbh are only warriors primarily identity because - 

Warriors lose basically no DPS using them unlike most boon builds. 

No other proffessions brings the same effects. 

I'd argue changing the boons they provide to ones every proffession can access makes them actually weaker. As it removes warrior from the raid comp in trade of being "quickness wanted" 

So yeah if the changes are too large and replace this could make warrior weaker in the PvE meta. Not stronger

Which I fear is a huge oversight on Anet 

They will probably kitten it up and even forget that is pain in the kitten to crit cap on warrior, but also on everyone else (Start buying mats for Assassins gear it will make killing on the TP). 
The way they plopped Bladesworn with the same niche as all other elite specs and even core on warrior is telling me the team that is responsible for Warrior is so kittening out of touch with the game it is unreal. They will most probably miss something really important and will bench warrior for 6 months (since this is their "balance" cadence lol) if they even address it afterwards.  

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40 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

They will probably kitten it up and even forget that is pain in the kitten to crit cap on warrior, but also on everyone else (Start buying mats for Assassins gear it will make killing on the TP). 
The way they plopped Bladesworn with the same niche as all other elite specs and even core on warrior is telling me the team that is responsible for Warrior is so kittening out of touch with the game it is unreal. They will most probably miss something really important and will bench warrior for 6 months (since this is their "balance" cadence lol) if they even address it afterwards.  

Problem is the niche isn't removal from a elite as banners are a core warrior feature realistically.

Which means every elite warrior gets can access it. 

You make the warrior require it's new utility to function. It won't be viable as people will demand you play the specc which can utilise them. 

That's just factual. For as long as banners are tied to core warrior. It will be a problem for every elite, the only way you could likely remove this problem would be 

To rework banners to do something entirely different. 

And build the unique boons into one of the elites (i.e spellbreaker as it's a specc which lacks a role in PvE) 

 Banners not being a DPS loss, to stack with them being unique and usuable in all builds is what makes it a issue 

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4 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Problem is the niche isn't removal from a elite as banners are a core warrior feature realistically.

Which means every elite warrior gets can access it. 

You make the warrior require it's new utility to function. It won't be viable as people will demand you play the specc which can utilise them. 

That's just factual. For as long as banners are tied to core warrior. It will be a problem for every elite, the only way you could likely remove this problem would be 

To rework banners to do something entirely different. 

And build the unique boons into one of the elites (i.e spellbreaker as it's a specc which lacks a role in PvE) 

 Banners not being a DPS loss, to stack with them being unique and usuable in all builds is what makes it a issue 

Benners are not DPS loss because they are required to be able to do the damage, a full dps build on warrior requires another warrior to bring banners, Double Standards is on every build i checked. The more i look at it , it seems that the banners are way more important for warrior and just happens to give some support so it looks like you are helping the team, but actually you are desperately pumping your stats to have good dps. Warrior seems like such stat check profession, you could take some cool active ability but the raw stats are way better.  

I've posted several times that Spellbreaker should probably get a support build for PVE, since it is a Support for WvW, it already has the CC and tanking capabilities, if they slap quickness or alacrity somewhere with the magebane for might stacking, it could potentially be good as Druid(when the nuke the spirits) 

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I want banners to be attachable to warrior. run around with a banner or 2 sticking out from our back. Make a trait in tactics where we can run around with the banner instead of placing them on the ground. maybe to balance it, its area is smaller or something.

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Would love to see them put the banners trait in tactics and implement a new damage traitline in disciplin instead, to hold the line still with other classes in PvE. (This would also buff the warrior a bit in pvp (and i dont meant bladesworn i mean the more underperforming ones))

Edited by Pati.2438
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8 hours ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Here's my guess:

They're gonna nerf banners to the oblivion, giving them boons only, hard eclipsed by the others offensive supports, warrior totally out of meta because of that and call it a day.

"Reworking Banners" I fully expect them to just take the unique buff from banners and slap boons on them and call it a day, without changing the way they function or operate whatsoever. 

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5 hours ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

"Reworking Banners" I fully expect them to just take the unique buff from banners and slap boons on them and call it a day, without changing the way they function or operate whatsoever. 

"Guys guys look! You can share alac! You have the amazing alac role that we envision all our classes can now play! Ensuring you'll be picked in groups in any content! Isn't that better than being Stat bannerslaves? Alac share!" 

 

It will legitimately be the most massive slap to the face and act of hypocrisy with disdain and disrespect towards warriors in all of history. 

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On 3/27/2022 at 12:51 PM, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

"Guys guys look! You can share alac! You have the amazing alac role that we envision all our classes can now play! Ensuring you'll be picked in groups in any content! Isn't that better than being Stat bannerslaves? Alac share!"

I am hoping that it is going to be quickness at least, but you are probably correct.

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For Warrior I'd say Quickness over Alac, its more related to...you know, Warriors...

 

Also I would love an Elite spec fully centered on Support warrior, with, lets say : a Morale mechanic which will replace the Adrenaline...

I liked the old version of banner where you could do things with them ( casting boons and fighting, even if the animation and damage where meme ), I also like this one version where you can drop the banner and pick them up to reload the cooldown. yet I still feel its sub tier. I don't have the solution for banner... its quite complex. To me, the boon giver is the Guardian.

Yet, a warrior can also be a leader, which bring people to victory. Morale is important in war and very linked to warriors...

 

Could call this spec Flagbearer or something...

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On 3/29/2022 at 5:42 PM, Mithrilos.8036 said:

Also I would love an Elite spec fully centered on Support warrior

Most warriors are on the same boat and not all for because they love support so much but because we have the tools but lack the sinergy. A support class could've tied banners with shouts plus something else new and be amazing but the amazing devs we have gave us another dps. Worst is they mash it with some suport (ammo and shouts certainly) and call it a day. The level of uninspired work on warrior is borderline unprofessional.

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51 minutes ago, Mesket.5728 said:

Most warriors are on the same boat and not all for because they love support so much but because we have the tools but lack the sinergy. A support class could've tied banners with shouts plus something else new and be amazing but the amazing devs we have gave us another dps. Worst is they mash it with some suport (ammo and shouts certainly) and call it a day. The level of uninspired work on warrior is borderline unprofessional.

people think that the gunblade rly is a class mechanic allowing for viability of a support with shoutspam...But tend to forget howbad it is for organized encounters and only uses the shouts to carry itself.Let alone support others. But the same people will tell you its a raw support, when all it does is cleanse and heal a bit, which sure, for 5v5 in pvp seems impactful, but on larger scale is sure as hell is not. 

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7 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

people think that the gunblade rly is a class mechanic allowing for viability of a support with shoutspam...But tend to forget howbad it is for organized encounters and only uses the shouts to carry itself.Let alone support others. But the same people will tell you its a raw support, when all it does is cleanse and heal a bit, which sure, for 5v5 in pvp seems impactful, but on larger scale is sure as hell is not. 

 

forget about performance, what really bugs me its how off it is from the narrative. I'm not a hardcore RP player, actually, I've never ever rp online BUT I still like a character that goes with a concept. How does shouts fit the bladesworn narrative? what on earth have an oath to a weapon have to do with someone screaming a lot? I just find the whole thing utterly stupid. What the hell am I even playing with? what is this class?

 

46 minutes ago, Mithrilos.8036 said:

I would delete banner as classic warrior mechanic and merge into a new elite spec with revamped banner (again ...) and more interessting stuff. I don't have all the solution, but all you guys said are saddly true...

 

That's the thing, banners are not even a warrior mechanic, its a mere skill as any other else. You wouldn't call Bolas a warrior mechanic. Burst skills are. Banners are our only "juicy" resource for group content. Problem with banners was not banners but the lack off other resources to provide our group.

An spec that could've grabbed banners and use it as a mechanic having them in a different way (like the commonly mentioned backpack banners) would've been great.

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1 minute ago, Mesket.5728 said:

 

forget about performance, what really bugs me its how off it is from the narrative. I'm not a hardcore RP player, actually, I've never ever rp online BUT I still like a character that goes with a concept. How does shouts fit the bladesworn narrative? what on earth have an oath to a weapon have to do with someone screaming a lot? I just find the whole thing utterly stupid. What the hell am I even playing with? what is this class?

 

 

That's the thing, banners are not even a warrior mechanic, its a mere skill as any other else. You wouldn't call Bolas a warrior mechanic. Burst skills are. Banners are our only "juicy" resource for group content. Problem with banners was not banners but the lack off other resources to provide our group.

An spec that could've grabbed banners and use it as a mechanic having them in a different way (like the commonly mentioned backpack banners) would've been great.

I agree with this, but not only having it on backpack, more interaction with banners would be appreciated a bit like the first version of banners, but in a better way. I'm still convinced about the "Flagbearer" theme.

 

I'm saying this again, but other classes are already doing great job as support, Guardians, Rangers, Mesmer, even Necros now.

What can a Warrior bring to the table that would not make it sub par or redundant. Banners are a first step but the whole "theme" is incomplete.

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On 3/19/2022 at 1:34 PM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Its the fact that they [banners] are the only identity Warrior has in PvE.

You're absolutely right. If banners didn't exist Warrior would never be seen in group content in their current form. In my opinion, Anet was very comfortable with the banners status quo and made elite specs that didn't really push any barriers or concepts. However the specs that came out did address specific needs. The way I see it is we have 4 variants of Warrior ...
 

1) Core: it's a warrior

2) Berserker: Core with the risk/reward pumped up. Give up armor for more damage

3) Spellbreaker: It's a WvW/PvP spec. It's actually really fun in PvE (If you find the rare enemies with boons on them)

4) Bladesworn: Opposite of Berserker, instead of spamming recklessly its a tactical one hit.

If you look at the 4 specs from a PvE group content point of view you can literally put zerk gear, banners, axe & axe/pistol on any of them and its the same thing at the end of the day. None of the elite specs changed the Warrior role, it just changed how you do damage in that role.

My concern with the upcoming summer update is that Warrior is going to get a banner rework and that'll be it till the next xpac at which point we'll get a proper support warrior (with spear or javelin pls kthx). Another concern is that the banner buffs will be changed to boons and then we'll just be completely left out cause other classes can do more boons and more damage. Though I'm also excited to see Anet listened and is working on it and very excited to read the patch notes this summer.

General Changes needed imo

-Elite shout - group stab/stun break would be awesome and there's room for it in the game.
-Greatsword & Hammer refreshed

-Spellbreaker Dagger damage buffed in PvE only

-Warrior needs a way to get more crit chance. (Something like rev/guard traits for +fury effectiveness)

-Fast Hands baseline (*reads notes from 8 years ago)

-A trait that removes weakness on burst skill

-Fierce as Fire needs to be reworked, now you just spam the gunsaber skills to get the buff.
-Utility skills have for the most part been terrible in all the elite specs. They need help urgently.

-Signets, leaving a signet passive should never be the best option.

-Banners ... burn them!

Edited by Chrisco.5732
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@Chrisco.5732 would love to see this changes for warrior in summer:

 

Banners gives boons:

Strength: migth/quickness

Disciplin: fury/swiftness (or maybe alac?)

Tactics: vigor/swiftness (or maybe alac?)

Defence: protection/regeneration

 

Those boon comps would open ub the Window for a new Support e spec next Expansion.

 

Move the allready exist Banner traitline into tactics. (Maybe for the place of warriors cunning)

Set a traitline into the now open Disciplin traitline that buffs critical chance and condition damage.

 

If they would do all this i will be hyped for that patch. If not ..... yea just another nerf to warrior since it would smash banners into just boon share and left warrior as a dps complete behind every other class.... 

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