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Saving Shouts


CalmTheStorm.2364

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Bladesworn is gonna get nerfed.  I can feel it.  The ridiculous sustain from shouts and MMR and the overloaded Unyielding Dragon trait are going to put BS squarely in the sights of CMC’s Nerf Hammer.

 

And I, for one, am very much afraid that shouts are going to get the brunt of it (even though the problem is really with BS and tactical reload more than shouts themselves).  However, I actually see an opportunity here to prune back BS’s bloated sustain while at the same time renovating shouts into a meaningful support option in all game modes.

 

For Great Justice:

This is the most problematic shout by far, as the might generation in combination with MMR and Mending Might turns it into a healing skill with 2 charges. 

 

The easiest change would be to revert FGJ to its PVE values (6 stacks of might for 25s, 8s of Fury) for PvP and WvW.  This makes the skill strong in the sense of giving you a good long-term “baseline” of might to augment your offense while preventing the huge burst of healing that the current 12 stacks of might provides.

 

However, here’s an alternative re-work:

FGJ provides 8s Fury and a +15% (+20% in PvE) power AND condi dmg buff for up to 5 targets for 6s.

 

This stays true to FGJ’s purpose of an offensive support, removes all might from it so there is no extra healing associated with it, and provides a unique effect that will cement Warrior’s place in DPS-oriented content.  We thus bypass the fact that other specs (like druid) can pump out might even easier than we can.  Let them do their thing, and we enhance it further by providing a massive boost to the team’s DPS.

 

Shake It Off:

This is a great skill, but it has been severely over-nerfed in competitive modes.  This stems from concerns about being able to chain stunbreaks.  Simple solution:

Reduce ammo count to 1 in PvP/WvW.  Reduce CD to 25s.

 

This would make the skill massively more useful overall while preventing Warrior from spamming stunbreaks.  Sound too strong?  Recall that SIO does nothing to prevent damage or remove you from danger.  In contrast, Lightning Reflexes (30s CD, 24s when traited) is an evade, removes immobile, grants 10s vigor, AND removes 2 conditions while giving Fury when traited.  If LR is OK, I’m pretty sure a non-evade, non-boon granting stunbreak/condi cleanse can be OK on short CD, too.

 

On My Mark:

This skill is terrible and does not at all achieve its apparent purpose.  It needs a rework.

 

I propose:

On Your Guard!

Reveal foes (6s) in a 600 radius.  Allies gain protection (5s).

 

This gives Warrior (and allies) and meaningful source of damage reduction.  It also provides Warrior an answer to some of its most vexing matchups (e.g., vs thief or mesmer, or even trapper ranger/dh).

 

To the Limit:

This is a great skill in PvE, but for some reason it has been nerfed into the ground in PvP/WvW.  It currently heals for like 300hp more than mending but has a 10s longer CD.  I understand reducing the endurance gain to 50 in competitive modes, and even to reduction in healing (to a lesser extent), but then compensate it by reducing the CD.  Simply reducing the CD to 20s (16s when traited) places it on the same level as Mending.  Warrior definitely is not overpowered even though mending is very strong; making TTL on the same level won’t break the game either.

 

Fear Me:

Just reduce the CD to 50s.  It’s kind of a gimmick, but it could be useful in some niche situations.

 

Oh, I would like it to place an icon on affected enemies’ bars that says:

💩You have soiled yourself.  -5% all stats.” 

Lasts until you respawn (and presumably change your pants). 

 

Ok, maybe just kidding about the last part.  But don’t think it wouldn’t be funny. 

 

 

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Your core concern can simply be addressed by changing Tactical Reload.

They knew it was going to be divisive when they showed it off during the Bsw reveal Livestream. It's a skill that crippled Bladesworn's Ammo skill CDs and interacts badly with Core Warrior's line Ammo skills (ie, Shouts), which were already viable without Tactical Reload and thus got the push it need to become an issue after Tactical Reload. 

 

As for your actual suggestions:

11 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

For Great Justice:

This is the most problematic shout by far, as the might generation in combination with MMR and Mending Might turns it into a healing skill with 2 charges. 

However, here’s an alternative re-work:

FGJ provides 8s Fury and a +15% (+20% in PvE) power AND condi dmg buff for up to 5 targets for 6s.

Utterly busted. The history of the game has proven again and again (and again) that teamwide % damage buffs are a bad idea, and you want it to give 15-20% for 6s?! The only other effect in the game similar to this is Warr Warhorn 4 and that gives damage mod to two HITS.

11 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Shake It Off:

This is a great skill, but it has been severely over-nerfed in competitive modes.  This stems from concerns about being able to chain stunbreaks.  Simple solution:

Reduce ammo count to 1 in PvP/WvW.  Reduce CD to 25s. 

Complete ignores the fact that SIO is a team cleanse. In a world without Tactical Reload we can talk about reducing its CD a little, but certainly not to 25s which is it's PVE balance where it actually does less things.

11 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

On My Mark:

This skill is terrible and does not at all achieve its apparent purpose.  It needs a rework.

I propose:

On Your Guard!

Reveal foes (6s) in a 600 radius.  Allies gain protection (5s).

 This gives Warrior (and allies) and meaningful source of damage reduction.  It also provides Warrior an answer to some of its most vexing matchups (e.g., vs thief or mesmer, or even trapper ranger/dh). 

I personally wouldn't mind a protection source on Warrior, but you're underselling OMM. Vuln is literally your FGJ suggestion in reverse, except balanced as a condition with a cap within the game's constraints. 

Edited by Jzaku.9765
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The Problem with Shouts is that the Traits and Runes that Support them are defensive support but only 2/5 shouts on warrior are actuall support.

Thats why it never made sense for Vigorous Shouts to exist the way it does.

 

It would have made way more sense to give us an actuall support E Spec with support Utility and make the Shout Trait do something different.

 

Edited by DanAlcedo.3281
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1 hour ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

The Problem with Shouts is that the Traits and Runes that Support them are defensive support but only 2/5 shouts on warrior are actuall support.

Thats why it never made sense for Vigorous Shouts to exist the way it does.

 

It would have made way more sense to give us an actuall support E Spec with support Utility and make the Shout Trait do something different.

 

Maybe just improve the shouts in a defensive way. 

 

  1. To the Limit: current + Grant AoE Vigor too for 8 sec
  2. Shake it Off: current + Grant Resolution for 5 sec
  3. On My Mark: current + Grant Resistance for 4 sec
  4. Fear Me (change to ammo with appropriate decrease to fear/weakness duration and proper interaction with CC traits): current + Grant Aegis for 4 sec
  5. For Great Justice: current + some extra baseline heal on allies through the Might

I dunno something small that could improve the shouts into a more defensive use, without rly butchering any offensive potential. Some small boons, not super crazy, would need to see how it would play out.

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stop asking nerfs for warrior when it's the only thing that makes it kinda playable and easily denied by players who spend some time playing pvp. especially when guard and necro metas are still god tiers. everything else should be dragged to warrior level because the kitten class has no room to shrink or expand. 

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6 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

Your core concern can simply be addressed by changing Tactical Reload.

They knew it was going to be divisive when they showed it off during the Bsw reveal Livestream. It's a skill that crippled Bladesworn's Ammo skill CDs and interacts badly with Core Warrior's line Ammo skills (ie, Shouts), which were already viable without Tactical Reload and thus got the push it need to become an issue after Tactical Reload. 

 

As for your actual suggestions:

Utterly busted. The history of the game has proven again and again (and again) that teamwide % damage buffs are a bad idea, and you want it to give 15-20% for 6s?! The only other effect in the game similar to this is Warr Warhorn 4 and that gives damage mod to two HITS.

Complete ignores the fact that SIO is a team cleanse. In a world without Tactical Reload we can talk about reducing its CD a little, but certainly not to 25s which is it's PVE balance where it actually does less things.

I personally wouldn't mind a protection source on Warrior, but you're underselling OMM. Vuln is literally your FGJ suggestion in reverse, except balanced as a condition with a cap within the game's constraints. 

I hear what you're saying, but (at least on the competitive side of things) I don't think many of these concerns actually materialize.

 

FGJ:

The amount of the damage mod could be changed; you could make it 10% in all modes or 7/15 (comp/PvE), etc.  You compared it to Warhorn 4: an utterly unimpactful skill (at least as far as the damage mod goes) in any game mode. Warhorn 4 might actually be useful if it provided a damage mod for a few seconds instead of just a few hits.

 

In any event, the whole idea here was to provide a unique effect that a) would make it desirable in all content, and b) get away from the bloated healing synergy with mmr and mm. If you've got a better idea, I'm all ears.

 

SIO:

I am well aware that it is an AOE cleanse. Still not that impactful overall and would definitely be balanced by the fact that you only would have one charge of it. One AoE cleanse every 25s is NOT going to break the game, I promise you.

 

OMM:

Not underselling anything. When's the last time you saw anyone run this that wasn't just to get more charges of healing from vigorous shouts? At best it has a niche role if you're going to be dueling a thief or something, but even then you're usually better off running another stun break or bulls charge, etc. The idea with the proposed change is to make it immediately useful (by applying protection) in all content while at the same time preserving its niche application for revealing stealthed foes.

 

Again, the overarching aim here is to expand the utility of shouts for all game modes while addressing some of Warrior's more pressing needs. Constructive suggestions are welcome.

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8 minutes ago, artharon.9276 said:

stop asking nerfs for warrior when it's the only thing that makes it kinda playable and easily denied by players who spend some time playing pvp. especially when guard and necro metas are still god tiers. everything else should be dragged to warrior level because the kitten class has no room to shrink or expand. 

Please actually read the OP. No one's asking for nerfs. But I'd bet they are coming, whether you ask for them or not. If they do nerf anything, I hope it is tactical reload which is the real root of the problem....but we are talking about the same ANet who "nerfed" shadow arts by lengthening CDs  on core thief skills, so...

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1 minute ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Please actually read the OP. No one's asking for nerfs. But I'd bet they are coming, whether you ask for them or not. If they do nerf anything, I hope it is tactical reload which is the real root of the problem....but we are talking about the same ANet who "nerfed" shadow arts by lengthening CDs  on core thief skills, so...

 

I did, nothing here offers a solution than generating more problems. 

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7 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

Your core concern can simply be addressed by changing Tactical Reload.

They knew it was going to be divisive when they showed it off during the Bsw reveal Livestream. It's a skill that crippled Bladesworn's Ammo skill CDs and interacts badly with Core Warrior's line Ammo skills (ie, Shouts), which were already viable without Tactical Reload and thus got the push it need to become an issue after Tactical Reload.

In GW2 balance don't solve issue, balance tweak things around the new shiny toys in such a way that the issue is no longer an issue.

The smart change would probably be to work on the tactic traitline, something like:

- Mending might: changed fonctionality to now heal the allies you grant might instead of healng you for each stack of might given to allies. (It make FGJ heal everyone by 612 in sPVP instead of potentially giving 2448 health to the warrior on use. That's a good chunk of sustain lost already for bladesworn)

- Soldier's confort: Reduce base healing from 970 to 800. This trait no also increase outgoing healing by 25%.

- Vigorous shout: Reduce base healing from 1000 to 750.

Voilà, the warrior lose a good 25+% self sustain from the tactic traitline yet become stronger at healing support in general.

 

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4 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Maybe just improve the shouts in a defensive way. 

 

  1. To the Limit: current + Grant AoE Vigor too for 8 sec
  2. Shake it Off: current + Grant Resolution for 5 sec
  3. On My Mark: current + Grant Resistance for 4 sec
  4. Fear Me (change to ammo with appropriate decrease to fear/weakness duration and proper interaction with CC traits): current + Grant Aegis for 4 sec
  5. For Great Justice: current + some extra baseline heal on allies through the Might

I dunno something small that could improve the shouts into a more defensive use, without rly butchering any offensive potential. Some small boons, not super crazy, would need to see how it would play out.

These are good ideas, GM. Just to clarify, are you saying vigorous shouts should provide these boons INSTEAD of healing or IN ADDITION to the healing?

 

I like the idea of extra boons, but I worry that if VS lost all its healing then warrior has no future as a healer in group support. Maybe there's a healthy middle ground somewhere...?

 

Alternatively, maybe you tie the healing to soldiers comfort and just let it proc on burst hit (5s CD) and remove its connection to marching orders? Just an idea.

Edited by CalmTheStorm.2364
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Delete tactical reload or change it to affect only BS skills and/or add fills your bar to max and resets DT. The RP is there since you tactically reloaded your Dragon trigger. Best part it doesn't affect shouts or core abilities that much anymore so core stuff doesn't need to get touched because of BS.

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Just make Tactical Reload only affect weapon skills with ammo and Exceed skills with ammo, and you wont need to nerf shouts at all. Same with Lush Forest, and then reconsider Lush Forest. I wouldnt say "revert to its old version", that version was just too good in general, but maybe the old verison with half the reduction?

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4 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

These are good ideas, GM. Just to clarify, are you saying vigorous shouts should provide these boons INSTEAD of healing or IN ADDITION to the healing?

 

I like the idea of extra boons, but I worry that if VS lost all its healing then warrior has no future as a healer in group support. Maybe there's a healthy middle ground somewhere...?

 

Alternatively, maybe you tie the healing to soldiers comfort and just let it proc on burst hit (5s CD) and remove its connection to marching orders? Just an idea.

You know me, of course it's an addition to the current Shouts heeheheh

 

The boons sare baseline with the effects, the healing  and healing power conversion still come from the trait (ideally with no CD reduction and better CDs around the shouts themselves as to enable shout builds that don't need the extra healing).

 

So yeah, some baseline boons/healing to promote that quick buff gameplay coupled with the trait, enabling a more frontline support (in contrast to the idea of banners being more of a backline support with pulsing effects).

 

And ofc I'm a sucker for different roles, so I'd want anet to rly distinguish Shout support from Banner support, from Mightshare and Alacshare. Just needs proper tweaking in Tactics and Discipline.

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50 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

You know me, of course it's an addition to the current Shouts heeheheh

 

The boons sare baseline with the effects, the healing  and healing power conversion still come from the trait (ideally with no CD reduction and better CDs around the shouts themselves as to enable shout builds that don't need the extra healing).

 

So yeah, some baseline boons/healing to promote that quick buff gameplay coupled with the trait, enabling a more frontline support (in contrast to the idea of banners being more of a backline support with pulsing effects).

 

And ofc I'm a sucker for different roles, so I'd want anet to rly distinguish Shout support from Banner support, from Mightshare and Alacshare. Just needs proper tweaking in Tactics and Discipline.

Can we keep one option like the current banner support where you pretend you are support but you are actually a dps. Just for the sake of having build diversity (not nice to delete builds that people are used to) and being invited to groups just cause i have cool stick that is better than bacon.

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I don't think Shouts will get nerfed, at least not yet.

My bet is that;

1. DT#2 bug with 3s cd will get fixed, reducing Bladesworn mobility and escape capabilities

2. Middle GM Might generation will be reduced

3. Barrier on last ammo round trait will get a 1s ICD.

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The only group content I really do these days is WvW. BS is only for roaming there and ShoutBreaker was already hurt badly when they nerfed Winds.  If they nerf the professions mechanic rather than something in the BS Spec, they will essentially remove warriors from WvW group play, so I'm hoping they don't.

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