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No one tested the new Catalyst update before release, quickness is broken


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I say broken because there is no way this is meant to be the Catalyst quickness ... someone has to be making updates from stat standpoint and never actually playing the class because with 60% boon duration I should be able to keep quickness up permanently ... it's impossible because of the way stacks fall off from jade sphere. 60% boon duration and im not even factoring the % buff to those numbers with ele empowerment. If the classes dps is too OP then nerf the dps but you guys need to revert back to the 5s jade sphere cd or even 10s but keep the 100% boon buff. You guys are missing the mark every time it's ridiculous. Put the guy who balances guardian on Cata for a day

Edited by kapenike.6793
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Even still, their explanation for the damage nerf being because it "provides quickness" seems a bit like grasping at straws anyway given some of the other professions that have access to this buff. 

Firebrand, Harbinger, Chrono and mesmer in general. I'm sure there are some metrics they're using to determine that Catalyst, specifically, was somekind of outlier in how much damage it was capable of doing while also providing this boon. But the fact of the matter is, who is going to be playing somekind of boon support quickness catalyst in raids?

When they have a dps routation, mechanics to follow, are playing on the squishiest class in the game, and something else could hand out quickness more reliably and consistently without sacrificing their rotation?

Like, no, and I don't even care. I think Catalyst in general should have more access to personal quickness and in organized teamplay that personal quickness wouldn't even matter.

Trying to make this somekind of boon support option in the first place seems like overreaching. Especially when we already have tempest. 

Good point about Guardian balance though. For tempest they created overloads and it was a great new way to interact with attunements, to give them more value while paying into the core spec and theme of the profession.

With Catalyst it's like they just said.. nah.. just give them a well and left everything else untouched. I mean they made it work, it's just that they made it work almost exactly like weaver where it feels like you HAVE to rapidly switch attunements and spam abilities to really feel like you're accomplishing anything. 

I guess ultimately Tempest wasn't THAT different in the sense that the overload was basically the same as a jade sphere, except it changed based on attunement in that it has a larger radius and depending on the element would either be stationary like fire an air or move with you like water and earth. It also just gives an aura instead of making you work for the aura. 

Honestly I've been playing it a lot over this weekend and I'm getting used to it, but the more I analyze it the more I'm just like.. okay.. so they just copied aspects of the existing specs and threw in a hammer that's a combination of a bunch of other abilities.. and yeah.. sure it works if you make it work.. but in general it's just an extremely weak spec and adds very little excitement to people that have been around for longer than 2 months. 

By comparison, we went from having a thief be a regular rogue type assassin, to being a kung fu staff wielding acrobatic ninja, to (the weakest of them all) a stealthy sniper, to now.. specter.. that feels like it has a strong enough identify and variation of gameplay elements that truly make it feel like a brand new profession.

I don't know what happened with Ele but I hope they're seriously looking at feedback about this spec because it is leagues below the others on a visual/graphic level, a gameplay level, and its identity in general. And I've tried to be more fair and spend more time playing it to give a more informed  decision. 

I actually complained about auras the other day and their synergy with hammer, but I didn't realize there was a minor trait that gives you an aura on ALL finishers. So it does kind of have synergy with hammer, but you have to pay really close attention with your weapon skills to be able to make use of it. 

The trade-offs this expansion seem to have dwindled a lot for most of the specs they released since beta. Necro not having damage reduction in shroud, fine, but then you give it access to perma quickness, all boons, yada yada. 

Ele takes a lot of profession knowledge and game knowledge. The trade-off is having a naturally harder class to play... we don't need to start tacking on more trade-offs just because someone benches 55k on a stationary golem. When you do things like build the spec and the new weapon around this concept of combo finishers, you're expecting the person playing it to be intimately familiar with every ability they have. But then we wind up with specs like Holo, that seem to also have a lot of reliance on combo finishers, and they're given so many defensives, overloaded traits, a shroud type mechanic, a new weapon that synergizes better with other weapons, and they're a medium armor weight with more base health. 

Like, outside of organized group play and jade sphere being an on demand combo field that if attuned specifically to air grants access to a completely new buff for ele's... how did they see this spec playing out? Because from what I gather from playing it, the most ideal situation for it is using hammer, attacking a stationary boss, and quickly precasting abilities while constantly shifting through attunements and making sure I'm always pressing something?

Yeah, I don't know. They're out of touch with ele I guess. I don't even care about the damage decrease. I just feel like this spec locks you into specific playstyles far more than the previous did. At least with weaver you had dual attunement and the very concept of weaver allowed them to incorporate all other weapons. I know they didn't have the scope or resources for that this time, or assume they didn't, but I'd have to think there's something they could have came up with better than Catalyst and "Jade Tech". 



 

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@Bast.7253 solid point. I just want to say that i don't think boon support without heals will ever make its way into meta ... so the only reasonable position for Catalyst is quick dps with fury or might options and just flat dps. This new update actually does give more potential to an idea of Catalyst staff heals and maintaining perma quickness but oh god ... im an ele main and had no fun playing staff Catalyst. DPS Cata used to require attunement swapping constantly and casting the air jade sphere every 5s which makes far more sense than a well that the team has to be on every 5s at 15s periods or else they wont get any. Multiple casts allows for more mobility in gameplay which ALL OTHER QUICKNESS CLASSES HAVE. I mean quick scrapper has 6+ sources ... we have one. But then again if you remember the original idea for jade spheres we all know the Cata balancer was getting ripped at work. 

As far as what Catalyst has to offer thats unique ... the combo field is supposed to be the center affect but I don't actual see that as the benefit. All Catalysts need to run water trait and aura share. This is a huge benefit to the team. I'm giving 1-2 auras every 3-5s to my team and the benefits are noticeable. 

 

Also kitty golem benching shouldn't be allowed when testing balances. It's unrealistic asf. I know multiple people that can wreck me against the golem that can't even get close to my dps numbers in raids. You might also see 0 boon duration Catalysts in the previous patch have 100% uptime against the cat ... well in any pve it's impossible and I think I was landing like 350% in FRACTALS without boon duration. To have 100% uptime in the previous patch I needed 25% minimum and even then it was iffy. ARCDPS can't properly register the jade sphere quickness uptime either btw, I assume because of how the stacks fall. I could do an entire fight where I didn't have quickness for like 5s every 20s and it still registered as 133% uptime

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11 hours ago, kapenike.6793 said:

I say broken because there is no way this is meant to be the Catalyst quickness ... someone has to be making updates from stat standpoint and never actually playing the class because with 60% boon duration I should be able to keep quickness up permanently ... it's impossible because of the way stacks fall off from jade sphere. 60% boon duration and im not even factoring the % buff to those numbers with ele empowerment. If the classes dps is too OP then nerf the dps but you guys need to revert back to the 5s jade sphere cd or even 10s but keep the 100% boon buff. You guys are missing the mark every time it's ridiculous. Put the guy who balances guardian on Cata for a day

i keep quickness with full berserker, but i think you have to run fresh air and energized elements and sphere specialist

 

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1 hour ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

i keep quickness with full berserker, but i think you have to run fresh air and energized elements and sphere specialist

 

mathematically not possible unless you run arcane which murders your dps.

it is possible if you cast it on cd with 20% bd while under perma alac. this is possible in fractals but not really practical. often enough you cant stay 5sec in a single place. thats why well chrono died there aswell. the spec isnt even that hard to make it at least playable but i expect no further ele changes until summer patch.

sub 1% ele playrate incoming in strikes cms whenever they release.

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20 hours ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

i keep quickness with full berserker, but i think you have to run fresh air and energized elements and sphere specialist

 

You may be talking about the previous patch 😕 I could too but I needed 15% boon duration minimum to make it practical in raids .... now you need 75% +

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18 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

mathematically not possible unless you run arcane which murders your dps.

it is possible if you cast it on cd with 20% bd while under perma alac. this is possible in fractals but not really practical. often enough you cant stay 5sec in a single place. thats why well chrono died there aswell. the spec isnt even that hard to make it at least playable but i expect no further ele changes until summer patch.

sub 1% ele playrate incoming in strikes cms whenever they release.

Why are we even surprised?  40% firebrand for how long?  Why not <1% ele?  ANet, you guys should be embarrassed.  Seriously.  You could throw darts blindfolded at a board full of bad ideas and come up with better balance than this.  But its okay.  Some forum warriors will arrive shortly to tell us how this is the player's fault for obsessing about the meta rather than any reflection on your inability to properly balance anything.  Sad.

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3 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

ANet, you guys should be embarrassed. 

To put it simple: There are just two possibilities: They either can do better but won't do it -> Then they should be removed from their jobs. Or they can't even do better in the first place. -> Then they should be removed as well...

 

In a more complex way: This game is impossible to balance, at least with the "one balance patch per year"-approach of anet. It's just too complicated: Too much build diversity (too many stat choices, too many traitlines with different choices of traits, no trinity of tank, heal, dd), three different game modes that all need different things for balancing, the whole boon system and to top it all of the devs themselves are probably not enough in numbers and probably not good enough in the game as well. To properly balance this nightmare of a game you need much, much more effort, you have to regurlarly pump out balance patches. In my opinion the best way would be to release a big balance patch after each normal pvp season followed by smaller patches in the next two to three weeks to smooth things out or revert things. This would mean something like 5 big and 10-15 smaller balance patches per year. Sure it sounds a lot, but you can always revert stuff, you can always tweak some numbers. But it's in my opinion what's needed...

 

And here comes the twist: Those patches would only appeal to the few thousend raiders, daily fractal cm enjoyers, dedicated wvw and pvp players and that's it. You can do your two hours a day Tarir, LLA and whatever without ever thinking about balancing at all. This game is made by and made for casuals, elite specs for example have to look cool, nobody cares if they are conceptually lacking or if their balance is broken. Everyone who complains about the balancing in this game is not really the target audience for the game itself. I also guess it's not in their monetary interest to invest in balancing. That's why they throw out a balance patch a year with no further explanations... It's a bone to throw at the dedicated players to shut their mouths, maybe followed by some known dev (looking at you, Grouch and CMC), who then promises there will be more frequent balance patches or major and significant changes after a beta test etc. when in fact it's not in their interest.

 

They can't balance the game properly because it's too complex and the classes are too diverse.

And they don't need proper balancing because this game is for casuals. 

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9 minutes ago, Flori.2194 said:

To put it simple: There are just two possibilities: They either can do better but won't do it -> Then they should be removed from their jobs. Or they can't even do better in the first place. -> Then they should be removed as well...

 

In a more complex way: This game is impossible to balance, at least with the "one balance patch per year"-approach of anet. It's just too complicated: Too much build diversity (too many stat choices, too many traitlines with different choices of traits, no trinity of tank, heal, dd), three different game modes that all need different things for balancing, the whole boon system and to top it all of the devs themselves are probably not enough in numbers and probably not good enough in the game as well. To properly balance this nightmare of a game you need much, much more effort, you have to regurlarly pump out balance patches. In my opinion the best way would be to release a big balance patch after each normal pvp season followed by smaller patches in the next two to three weeks to smooth things out or revert things. This would mean something like 5 big and 10-15 smaller balance patches per year. Sure it sounds a lot, but you can always revert stuff, you can always tweak some numbers. But it's in my opinion what's needed...

 

And here comes the twist: Those patches would only appeal to the few thousend raiders, daily fractal cm enjoyers, dedicated wvw and pvp players and that's it. You can do your two hours a day Tarir, LLA and whatever without ever thinking about balancing at all. This game is made by and made for casuals, elite specs for example have to look cool, nobody cares if they are conceptually lacking or if their balance is broken. Everyone who complains about the balancing in this game is not really the target audience for the game itself. I also guess it's not in their monetary interest to invest in balancing. That's why they throw out a balance patch a year with no further explanations... It's a bone to throw at the dedicated players to shut their mouths, maybe followed by some known dev (looking at you, Grouch and CMC), who then promises there will be more frequent balance patches or major and significant changes after a beta test etc. when in fact it's not in their interest.

 

They can't balance the game properly because it's too complex and the classes are too diverse.

And they don't need proper balancing because this game is for casuals. 

I would agree in part, but if balancing was not in their interest they wouldn't have killed catas dps. I'd just say they don't know how to balance it because of the flaws at the very core of its design.  These nerfs just show the numbers were band aids for all the issues with the spec and class as a whole. And now more people are aware of it than before. For better or for worse, Anet will have to address it at some point. 

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9 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

I would agree in part, but if balancing was not in their interest they wouldn't have killed catas dps. I'd just say they don't know how to balance it because of the flaws at the very core of its design.  These nerfs just show the numbers were band aids for all the issues with the spec and class as a whole. And now more people are aware of it than before. For better or for worse, Anet will have to address it at some point. 

That's what I said in my first paragraph. They are probably clueless, not just HOW to balance but also about the game itself. 

This nerf happened out of stupidity and incompetence but in the need to do anything because balance "is in the works"tm.

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9 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

For better or for worse, Anet will have to address it at some point. 

Looking at their current track record for balancing? Nah, they rather sell you a profession change contract at the game store...

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Stability on aura gain also sucks as a grandmaster. It feels like it needs something else. 

And a damaging well that grants boons and requires a specific boon to gain access to that new boon, requiring a weird energy rotation mechanic.. it's just underwhelming. Visually, conceptually, and gameplay-wise. 

For me, I feel like this line from our dearly departed kind of sums up how I'll feel about Catalyst looking back.

Mmm, but fond memories are harder when they're buried by what might have been. 

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Catalyst is indeed broken. The heal one, that is. Though Cata is obviously meant to be a hammer spec, using some other weapon is better for healing and just staff works...though to get best out of it, Frost Bow is obviously the answer. And what does it bring? About 40 might (bit excessive, rite?), full quickness, fury, regen, protecc, swiftness, resolution, vigor and good amount of resistance (which is meh but still +1 boon count). Now that the orb cooldowns are 15s (less with alac and Arcane traited), energy is manageable well enough that you can easily get enough energy to cast 3 Spheres in quick succession whenever energy is full. With the previous 5s cooldown and +20% boon bonus from Sphere Specialist that wasn't very doable on Heal Cata.
Build for reference: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGQAYlZwsYVsQGJm8XXxfA-zRJYjRBfZUdCkeB47s0+mF-e
Note: Glyph of Elementals' are there to summon Fire Elementals which do the might for you which allows you to use Air-Earth-Water Sphere combos for more defensive boons. You can use something else than those glyphs instead if you want to use Fire Sphere a lot for might.

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1 hour ago, LadyKitty.6120 said:

Catalyst is indeed broken. The heal one, that is. Though Cata is obviously meant to be a hammer spec, using some other weapon is better for healing and just staff works...though to get best out of it, Frost Bow is obviously the answer. And what does it bring? About 40 might (bit excessive, rite?), full quickness, fury, regen, protecc, swiftness, resolution, vigor and good amount of resistance (which is meh but still +1 boon count). Now that the orb cooldowns are 15s (less with alac and Arcane traited), energy is manageable well enough that you can easily get enough energy to cast 3 Spheres in quick succession whenever energy is full. With the previous 5s cooldown and +20% boon bonus from Sphere Specialist that wasn't very doable on Heal Cata.
Build for reference: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGQAYlZwsYVsQGJm8XXxfA-zRJYjRBfZUdCkeB47s0+mF-e
Note: Glyph of Elementals' are there to summon Fire Elementals which do the might for you which allows you to use Air-Earth-Water Sphere combos for more defensive boons. You can use something else than those glyphs instead if you want to use Fire Sphere a lot for might.

That's a lot of mind gymnastics just to end up with a worse Firebrand xD Hell even Tempest might be better if you have quickness covered (which fb and harb can do while sleeping) 

 

And where do you want to play it with full minstrel? 

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1 hour ago, LadyKitty.6120 said:

Catalyst is indeed broken. The heal one, that is. Though Cata is obviously meant to be a hammer spec, using some other weapon is better for healing and just staff works...though to get best out of it, Frost Bow is obviously the answer. And what does it bring? About 40 might (bit excessive, rite?), full quickness, fury, regen, protecc, swiftness, resolution, vigor and good amount of resistance (which is meh but still +1 boon count). Now that the orb cooldowns are 15s (less with alac and Arcane traited), energy is manageable well enough that you can easily get enough energy to cast 3 Spheres in quick succession whenever energy is full. With the previous 5s cooldown and +20% boon bonus from Sphere Specialist that wasn't very doable on Heal Cata.
Build for reference: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGQAYlZwsYVsQGJm8XXxfA-zRJYjRBfZUdCkeB47s0+mF-e
Note: Glyph of Elementals' are there to summon Fire Elementals which do the might for you which allows you to use Air-Earth-Water Sphere combos for more defensive boons. You can use something else than those glyphs instead if you want to use Fire Sphere a lot for might.

Interesting Build. I can't find Fire Elementals giving Might on the Wiki and didn't know about this prior.

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56 minutes ago, gooddrakkarboi.4870 said:

That's a lot of mind gymnastics just to end up with a worse Firebrand xD Hell even Tempest might be better if you have quickness covered (which fb and harb can do while sleeping) 

 

And where do you want to play it with full minstrel? 

Well, tanking ofc (Cata has multiple blocks available) ! Though for off-healer you can use Harrier's. Kitty just kinda likes that extra tankiness as Harrier's feels kinda squishy.

And well, in current state you can use that Firebrand argument for essentially anything, except maybe Mechanist.

Even then, Kitty's tried to figure out useful Cata build to give eles a chance to support now that Tempest lost some of its primary advantages as healer. 

27 minutes ago, Bleikopf.2491 said:

Interesting Build. I can't find Fire Elementals giving Might on the Wiki and didn't know about this prior.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flame_Burst_(Glyph_of_Lesser_Elementals_skill) they are now casting it automatically and it follows the ele's BD% so at high BD with alacrity to keep up pretty much 4, it's easy full might. Even without alacrity it's 24 stacks most of the time.

But since it takes some time to stack up, esp. if you didn't precast elementals, Jade Sphere is needed to give might at start. But any way, works.

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1 hour ago, LadyKitty.6120 said:

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flame_Burst_(Glyph_of_Lesser_Elementals_skill) they are now casting it automatically and it follows the ele's BD% so at high BD with alacrity to keep up pretty much 4, it's easy full might. Even without alacrity it's 24 stacks most of the time.

But since it takes some time to stack up, esp. if you didn't precast elementals, Jade Sphere is needed to give might at start. But any way, works.

The only thing worthy noticing about fire elementals might generation is the target cap. They give might to 4 targets besides themselves. If you happen to be one of their targets, then someone in your subsquad isn't getting any. It's something that really could be tweaked in the promising summer balance patch to improve their utility 😔

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13 minutes ago, gooddrakkarboi.4870 said:

Am I blind or where are those blocks in your build?

Not in the build editor version. I went on their YT and they did uploaded a raid 5 days ago (Damion? I don't do raids so not good with the names) with the Earth Augment "Fortified Earth" instead of Glyph of Revival. Glyph of Revival is pretty much swappable.

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9 hours ago, LadyKitty.6120 said:

Catalyst is indeed broken. The heal one, that is. Though Cata is obviously meant to be a hammer spec, using some other weapon is better for healing and just staff works...though to get best out of it, Frost Bow is obviously the answer. And what does it bring? About 40 might (bit excessive, rite?), full quickness, fury, regen, protecc, swiftness, resolution, vigor and good amount of resistance (which is meh but still +1 boon count). Now that the orb cooldowns are 15s (less with alac and Arcane traited), energy is manageable well enough that you can easily get enough energy to cast 3 Spheres in quick succession whenever energy is full. With the previous 5s cooldown and +20% boon bonus from Sphere Specialist that wasn't very doable on Heal Cata.
Build for reference: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PGQAYlZwsYVsQGJm8XXxfA-zRJYjRBfZUdCkeB47s0+mF-e
Note: Glyph of Elementals' are there to summon Fire Elementals which do the might for you which allows you to use Air-Earth-Water Sphere combos for more defensive boons. You can use something else than those glyphs instead if you want to use Fire Sphere a lot for might.

Unfortunately I feel this is the entire reason for the recent change .... I couldn't heal Catalyst very well and upkeep quickness uptime with the 5s cast time. But this is FINE by me ... we have a dedicated dps spec and an almost dedicated healer spec, they should have kept the kit setup to help with a boon support dps class (might quick and some protection). I don't think many of us eles wanted Catalyst as a healer

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Speed running groups were running like 4 catalysts so it got nerfed. Yes, < 100 people got a class nerfed for hundred of thousands, that's anet logic and balancing.

  

On 3/21/2022 at 7:04 PM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Why are we even surprised?  40% firebrand for how long?  Why not <1% ele?  ANet, you guys should be embarrassed.  Seriously.  You could throw darts blindfolded at a board full of bad ideas and come up with better balance than this.  But its okay.  Some forum warriors will arrive shortly to tell us how this is the player's fault for obsessing about the meta rather than any reflection on your inability to properly balance anything.  Sad.

It's because they balance the game around an EXTREMELY tiny minority.

Edited by Shiyo.3578
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16 minutes ago, Shiyo.3578 said:

Speed running groups were running like 4 catalysts so it got nerfed. Yes, < 100 people got a class nerfed for hundred of thousands, that's anet logic and balancing.

  

It's because they balance the game around an EXTREMELY tiny minority.

I legit had no idea that speed runners were using it at all😅 

That's a sucky outcome. Niche within niche groups should be the last considered for balance. They are the exception not the rule. I say this as a raider, fractal runner and wvwer. 

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6 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

I legit had no idea that speed runners were using it at all😅 

That's a sucky outcome. Niche within niche groups should be the last considered for balance. They are the exception not the rule. I say this as a raider, fractal runner and wvwer. 

Roul put up a video of catalyst doing CMs.  I think the comp was healbrand, quickness cata, 2 DH + SB.  Roul was topping DPS in most (maybe all?) of the fights while also providing quickness, I believe.  I think it also had a benchmark that was 10-15% higher than the next highest build?  So, yeah, overtuned.  Naturally, the answer is to fix nothing about the way the spec functions and just nuke it from orbit so it isn't competitive for anything. 🙄

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7 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Roul put up a video of catalyst doing CMs.  I think the comp was healbrand, quickness cata, 2 DH + SB.  Roul was topping DPS in most (maybe all?) of the fights while also providing quickness, I believe.  I think it also had a benchmark that was 10-15% higher than the next highest build?  So, yeah, overtuned.  Naturally, the answer is to fix nothing about the way the spec functions and just nuke it from orbit so it isn't competitive for anything. 🙄

Speedrunners dont use healers in fractals. It was rainbow comp. dh, slb, bs, ren.

4th place on mama

1st siax

2nd enso.

98cm bosses have all a giant hitbox. perfekt for lightning storm burst. its unplayable in 100 and average in 99. He gets a lot of free bd from ar and wasnt required to take a lot of diviner. and could also run full dps traits since anets trait choices are questionable. a full dps cata wouldnt do a lot more dps.

he was most likely full berserker on ensolyss and maybe even siax. those fights are so short that you can do most of the fights without any bd if you precast enough quickness. also moa stance adds 66% bd and you could use that every 2nd air rota. air sphere should not give quickness baseline. thats a major problem...

Edited by Nephalem.8921
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