WvW Constructive Discussion - Share Thoughts/Improvements

[Chaba.5410]

1 hour ago, Nyghtslave.6152 said:

By no means do I mean to imply the problem doesn't already exist, merely that the current way of restructuring exacerbates the issue

I don't think it is possible to make such a claim that this exacerbates the issue because this is just a single match.  I'd say instead that you're too used to playing matches where a team's position becomes settled after enough 1u1d movement and trying to make a comparison.  What we have this match is brand spanking new teams that have never played before (flush with players who don't play WvW all that often) and haven't moved into their "proper tier" through at least 4 weeks worth of matches.

And that gridlock you mention is broken up and remade every "season" when new teams getting formed again instead of these ossified servers with years-long reputations and self-selected segregation by playstyles.  Maybe one can compare it to server wipes in Rust and similar games.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[Nyghtslave.6152]

7 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I don't think it is possible to make such a claim that this exacerbates the issue because this is just a single match.  I'd say instead that you're too used to playing matches where a team's position becomes settled after enough 1u1d movement and trying to make a comparison.  What we have this match is brand spanking new teams that have never played before and haven't moved into their "proper tier" through at least 4 weeks worth of matches.

While that is a valid point, but it doesn't take away from whole maps are under control of just one faction with hardly any shifts, whole groups of opposing factions just waiting around bc there's nothing to cap, "Outnumbered" all over the place, (almost) all towers at tier 3 by the hand of just one world...

If this is the WvW we can expect in the future, it's a bleak one imo

 

[Chaba.5410]

2 minutes ago, Nyghtslave.6152 said:

While that is a valid point, but it doesn't take away from whole maps are under control of just one faction with hardly any shifts, whole groups of opposing factions just waiting around bc there's nothing to cap, "Outnumbered" all over the place, (almost) all towers at tier 3 by the hand of just one world...

If this is the WvW we can expect in the future, it's a bleak one imo

 

Like you acknowledged earlier, that happens too without restructuring so it's not clear how this is a critique of restructuring.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[Nyghtslave.6152]

7 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Like you acknowledged earlier, that happens too without restructuring so it's not clear how this is a critique of restructuring.

The point was that it seems to be even worse than normal. And yes, it's a single match, but you'd at least expect some normalization. But hey, maybe that's just me.

[Gehenna.3625]

So my experience so far in this beta: it's not good.

What I've experienced so far after playing wvw every day for 3+ hours a day is that there is a complete lack of population balance on my "beta server". I play wvw during the afternoon and evening but during neither time blocks we have a majority to speak of, if at all.

It's no fun because if the other teams are active (which is most of the time), we don't stand a chance against them. As a consequence our camps, towers and keeps change hands regularly. They come and overpower us because they can. And then they allow us to take it back, so when it suits them they can take it back again. There is no contest. There are occasions where we can drive them off, but that's lucky. The probably didn't think they needed the usual numbers and just at that moment we have enough numbers to drive them off per chance.

Today I just resorted to capping a camp here or there just for the pips, because there were no tags to speak of for hours and anything more would be very, well, silly to attempt. Why repair walls or build siege when it's like that? I don't mind if that happens some of the time. But what's discouraging is that our side has to wait for the other sides to become less active to have a chance. And mind you, the other teams did have zergs running around, so it's not just because the afternoon is quieter. It is, but the other teams still manage to run a couple of  zergs and we don't.

I'm not sure what you're doing with regards to matchmaking. You say that you're testing a new system that will make it easier for you to implement, but so far I don't feel it's working right. I'll just be finishing off my diamond tier for the wvw tickets and then I'll stop for the rest of the week.

The current wvw situation outside the beta is better than this.

 

[Gehenna.3625]

27 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Like you acknowledged earlier, that happens too without restructuring so it's not clear how this is a critique of restructuring.

well except that it's a whole lot of work for nothing, so why spend the resources? I mean this restructuring is supposed to make things better right? As I posted above, in my situation it's actually worse than normal.

[Chaba.5410]

8 minutes ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

well except that it's a whole lot of work for nothing, so why spend the resources? I mean this restructuring is supposed to make things better right? As I posted above, in my situation it's actually worse than normal.

That's a whole lot of generalization without much in the way of anything enabling constructive dialog about.  I didn't read your post above so you have me at a lack of context.

Edit: Now that I read your post...  No one knows what your "normal" is.  If you normally play on a team that has good coverage and lots of population, yea it's going to feel worse when you're suddenly on the receiving end.  There's a part of the playerbase that won't have sympathy though because they've been on the receiving end themselves.

You mention a problem with no tags.  What if team formation took into account which players tag up and spread them out?  Guess what?  That's an actual proposal and becomes possible with this kind of team formation.  So whole lot of work for nothing?  I disagree.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[Nuttypeanutt.8162]

MY OPINION!

     This beta and the whole idea of this change is complete garbage. The whole point of WvW is to have Server vs Server competition and to form server comradery. We should not be rotating servers in and out at all, period. This beta is making everything worse and even further compartmentalizing people into smaller and smaller groups. If you wanted to make Free Roaming Team Based PvP a thing...then make a different game mode (oh wait you already have team based PvP, so why are you messing with WvW?! /facepalm). Teams and Guild Alliances do NOT belong in WvW. Teams and guild alliances belong in Team PvP or Guild vs Guild PvP, not WvW. What happened to Guild vs Guild, isn't that the name of the game? GUILD WARS? If that's your aim...then make the game mode of Guild vs Guild 1v1...and make another subsection of Guild Teams\Alliances vs other Guild Team\Alliances like 2 Guilds vs 2 Guilds...stop trying to make WvW into something it was never meant to be. The whole reason WvW is fun is because it is/was supposed to be your server vs 2 others, that's it. No "teams", no "guild alliances", no nothing...just your server vs 2 others straight-up and that's the way it should stay. If ppl want just PvP then they can go do PvP in the PvP arena. If you want to make WvW more fun or diverse then how about trying to match up servers from different parts of the world against each other? Instead of keeping everything separated you can have 1 US server, 1 UK server, and 1 Asian server...go at it (and rotate server participants each week) and that would be true WvW. What you're doing and making smaller "teams" and "alliances" does nothing but compartmentalize and create more animosity towards the WvW game mode. It's simply not WvW anymore. Now, it's all about "who you know" or "what guilds you're friendly with" to get a good groupling, instead of making it actual WvW. This is complete garbage.

BTW if you're going to keep something as useless and terrible as this implemented then I want a full refund for my server xfer and my wife would like hers refunded as well because the whole reason why we switched servers was to play with a better WvW server...just like anyone else SHOULD do if they are unhappy with their server. 

[Chaba.5410]

8 minutes ago, Nuttypeanutt.8162 said:

the whole reason why we switched servers was to play with a better WvW server...just like anyone else SHOULD do if they are unhappy with their server.

Do you have any idea how ironic your post comes off sounding?  Why don't you return to your original server and help form this server comradery that you think is the whole point of WvW?

Sorry, OP.  This thread is no longer constructive at all.

[Gehenna.3625]

17 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

That's a whole lot of generalization without much in the way of anything enabling constructive dialog about.  I didn't read your post above so you have me at a lack of context.

Well you responded to someone who acknowledged that these problems exist in the current situation, I also do that. But when I see that and compare it to how it is now (at least for me), it's only logical that I come to that conclusion. Also I said that it was from the point of view of my post, so I don't see why you would call it a generalisation. 

Quote

Edit: Now that I read your post...  No one knows what your "normal" is.  If you normally play on a team that has good coverage and lots of population, yea it's going to feel worse when you're suddenly on the receiving end.  There's a part of the playerbase that won't have sympathy though because they've been on the receiving end themselves.

You mention a problem with no tags.  What if team formation took into account which players tag up and spread them out?  Guess what?  That's an actual proposal and becomes possible with this kind of team formation.  So whole lot of work for nothing?  I disagree.

Well everybody has their own experience, I just reported mine and my conclusion is from that perspective. Clearly you have a different experience and that's cool. 

But just because you have a different experience during this beta doesn't invalidate mine, just as my experience doesn't invalidate yours.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Gehenna.3625

[Mabi black.1824]

On 8/14/2022 at 1:32 PM, wowMuchGuildWars.6125 said:

While I admire the spirit behind your idea, what you are describing (if I'm understanding correctly) is fundamentally flawed because team creation is only done once a year. This doesn't account for player activity or relationships between communities, guilds currently transfer away from servers (or don't play at all) if they are linked with people they don't like so not being able to do that will create a negative experience for many people. While the current World Restructuring/Alliance system might kill server identity it allows people to create new identities around Alliances and guilds

let's see if I can explain my suggestion better. as I have already said with alliances we will have much more similar teams. we don't even have to discuss this, it's just logical, combining many small pieces is definitely more effective to get a great balance.

but now that you have alliances do not think that the work is finished, now you have to contextualize alliance in this game mode: world vs world. you will have to define a season, you will have to define the number of worlds participating in the season, you will have to define a ranking, you will have to define some rules, etc etc.

you have to think about how to stimulate the player, encourage the initiatives and contents of the game mode, feed the competition because as we have already seen the only thing that '' ruins your experience in wvw '' is to lose the concept of competition, go online and know that winning or losing does not make sense, this is the real problem for this game mode.

Why? the same arenanet explained it to you a long time ago . the current system creates teams that differ by more than 50 %. the current system has no control over transfers, and this is enough to remove any kind of meaning of winning or losing.

and speaking of transfers, my opinion is that if the new system matches your guild randomly while teams are being built, with someone you don't like, you can book the transfer, but you will only be granted if some other guild requests it from the other side to take your place. in the meantime you will have to behave like a polite person and find ways to be effective even if you do not like someone.

in short, we have alliances, perfect now let's think about everything else please.

[Mabi black.1824]

15 hours ago, Nuttypeanutt.8162 said:

MY OPINION!

     This beta and the whole idea of this change is complete garbage. The whole point of WvW is to have Server vs Server competition and to form server comradery. We should not be rotating servers in and out at all, period. This beta is making everything worse and even further compartmentalizing people into smaller and smaller groups

I completely agree with you brother, but..... it is not true that it is all garbage, this statement is stupid, and I will explain why. the system we have is not good right? well. Alliances is an excellent solution, we will finally have the opportunity to build very similar teams = very balanced matches. we just have to contextualize the alliance system in this game mode: world vs world. 

certainly if you are thrown from one team to another every 8 weeks we will give a hard blow to the players because now that they have good teams, they no longer have a goal. we need to build a season, a championship to win a ranking to climb. and to get this 8 weeks are definitely too few.

[Mabi black.1824]

15 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Do you have any idea how ironic your post comes off sounding?  Why don't you return to your original server and help form this server comradery that you think is the whole point of WvW?

Sorry, OP.  This thread is no longer constructive at all.

it is not true chaba, we try to always be constructive, if the current system puts competition in difficulty, this does not justify that the new system completely cancels it. in fact the observation that this mode deals with is world vs world is more than correct. so if alliances solve the problem of having balanced teams they are fine, but please let's think about how to put these teams in competition, with a long-term vision.

[Mabi black.1824]

as usual there are never half measures. world vs. world. it is true that a 10-year-old season could be boring. but even switching to 2-month seasons could be too short. my suggestion for a normal 12-month sports season just no?

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

A couple things from a solo/duo roamer, small scale pugmander...

 

Biggest thing is that I have my own alliance between a few guilds as we all are on the same server (normal server not alliance server) however we have no way to stay with those friends w/o bein gin one mega guild and using that guild as our allianced one. There needs to be a way...even during beta...to choose what guilds you are allied with as we have a comradery and we have had some for a few years, however one of these friendly guilds are an enemy of mine currently.

Plus the huuuuuge guilds (wont name any) make up a server really. 40+ each in 2 certain guilds we are matched against and our matchup seems to be a bunch of smaller ones, thus always outnumbered and getting bodied (this goes toward population balancing). Reminds me of facing mag and BG again xD

 

I will say that switching guilds to ally with (for those who are in super small guilds that wanna follow a few from another) was a great idea, and makes sense it takes the next reset to kick in.

 

This alliance matchup I am in started bad (havent had to block so many allies in chat due to toxicity) however seemed to have gotten better chat wise. Sucks tho as in my server I am somewhat known for something that I do on a toon so I had comms and peeps whisper me asking me to do this thing, however starting that from scratch with all new ppl is frustrating as you know what.

Anywho some issues/gripes so far. Hope next alliance offers more options.

[Chaba.5410]

10 hours ago, Gehenna.3625 said:

Well you responded to someone who acknowledged that these problems exist in the current situation, I also do that. But when I see that and compare it to how it is now (at least for me), it's only logical that I come to that conclusion. Also I said that it was from the point of view of my post, so I don't see why you would call it a generalisation. 

Well everybody has their own experience, I just reported mine and my conclusion is from that perspective. Clearly you have a different experience and that's cool. 

But just because you have a different experience during this beta doesn't invalidate mine, just as my experience doesn't invalidate yours.

I wasn't invalidating your experience.  I was questioning your conclusion that it's a whole lot of work for nothing that you were making from that experience.  I didn't see much actual support for your conclusion if looking at the entirety of world restructuring more objectively.

Edited August 16, 2022 by Chaba.5410

[Gehenna.3625]

17 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I wasn't invalidating your experience.  I was questioning your conclusion that it's a whole lot of work for nothing that you were making from that experience.  I didn't see much actual support for your conclusion if looking at the entirety of world restructuring more objectively.

The other person and I have experiences that are (sometimes) worse than normal. So from that pov it's a lot of work with nothing to show for it.

Of course that's my subjective opinion. I can never give an objective assessment of that. Nor can you or anyone else here. It's all based on personal experiences and I do recognise that.

Even you cannot look at it objectively. If you pretend to be able to do that, then you're really not being honest with yourself.

 

[Custodio.6134]

from what i´ve seen in this thread so far, there are some big issues currently that prevents everyone from juding the system properly. 

 

1, the beta only lasts one week. One week is way too less time for players to re-organize, while simultaneously being an incentive to not even build up a temporary "community" because of that. this increases the feeling of "loss of server identity" (which is not even true for the final version because it will be replaced by "alliance identity")

2, the player counts get distorted by the bonus-week

3, we don´t even have full functionality yet (e.g. alliance building and guild features are not even implemented)

4, we don´t know if the backend (especially population-balancing) is working as intended

5,  the system most likely doesn´t even have all variables for team-building (most likely guild-choice, alliances, solo-players, playtime/activity, language +whatever may influence teams in addition to that) implemented yet. what we are testing right now (and have been testing in the previous betas as well) is just the core structure for world building. 

It is NOT (!!!) the final version and lacks a lot of functionality, is not polished, probably still has bugs invisible to the players and we are far from a fully functional and complete overhaul of WvW.