Why GW2 will fail on Steam without core combat changes. (Alac/Quickness Boons too powerful)

[Keegers.2573]

With Anet's recent post talking about wanting to have the perfect Steam launch, it made me start thinking about the current issue holding GW2 back from larger success. The game claims to be solo/"casual" friendly game and in most regards it achieves that. Until we get into the aspect of late game raids/strikes/fractals and the current meta revolving around them. The current boon system is a detriment to the game and kills it for solo/casual players with how necessary quickness/alac is and the massive dps disparity it causes. 
 

DPS difference

Look at the current EoD endgame meta and how much attention that has gotten. Optimal builds are pretty much required and groups are having to engage in gatekeeping behavior of manipulating map population to be able to do the event and succeed. There is a huge difference in dps between even the same spec/gearing of when you have quickness and alac vs when you are boonless. If you want to squish the difference between skill floor and ceiling looking at boon uptime and the basic requirements of these two boons is the main place to start. They need to outright remove these boons instead of just sprinkling in more classes to use them, because this just creates oppressive team comps. Look at the current mechanist build and how it is overshadowing all other supports.  For a game that set out to get rid of the holy trinity, they proved why the trinity works. They made a support/boon system that is unintuitive and unfun to play, everything is obfuscated. Side note, if your class feels bad to play without these boons, it is a fault of the class design. No class should be dependent on external boons to feel fun and engaging.

Roles and matchmaking

Because of the boonmeta we can never have a matchmaking system in the game. I know Anet said they don't want one, but lets look for a moment at the other competing MMORPGS on steam and how they compare to GW2. I will focus on the main 3 of steam currently; Lost Ark, FFXIV, and ESO. All of these games use a matchmaker for the majority of their content, why would a casual player play GW2 endgame content when they could jump straight into the content in the other 3 games with minimal delay. The timewaste of creating and looking for groups that fit within the specific meta of GW2 is currently killing the in game LFG system. Most the players I know organize outside of the game in different discords as is, how is a new casual player supposed to break into these areas easily and experience the content. This will be a major quit point for the majority of new steam players. 

If I look back at the launch of GW2 before HoT, you were able to take 5 berserkers and get through most of the dungeons/fractals. If you tried to do that now in strikes/raids you would fail miserably, while the increase in build variation is nice, they have consequentially ruined a groups ability to just hotjoin and go. Look at Lost Ark, difficulty of content and current calls for nerfs aside, you can join the Abyssal Dungeons/Raids (hardest available content) in matchmaking and you can complete all of the content without a bard or paladin (support class). If you wanted to try running a strike or raid without your quickness/alac buffs you would be in for a bad time. 

I love Guild Wars, I've been playing since Prophecies launch, every expansion, every living story. I want this game to be a huge success, but the current Boon meta is holding the game back. We as a community need to stop pushing this elitist idea that having boons and the current support classes makes the game skilled. The fun of the game for solo/casual players is completing all the content of a game at their own pace of how/when they want to do it. Being gatekept out of raids/strikes will be the major quit point for the majority of new players. 

TLDR: Quickness/Alac are game ruining buffs and should be removed if Anet wants GW2 to succeed on Steam.

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Keegers.2573

[Danikat.8537]

I play Elder Scrolls Online as well and I much prefer the LFG tool in GW2 precisely because it doesn't dump you into any group with a space for what the game thinks you should be doing and instead lets you choose a group to join. I'm not alone in that either, there's frequent requests on their forum for that game to get something like GW2's LFG tool in addition to the current automated system because a lot of players don't like it.

The vast majority of the content in both games does not require a precise combination of builds (including the DE meta event) and having a group finder which lets you choose from the available groups allows players to organise themselves based on criteria Anet may not think to consider or the game couldn't automatically sort by, like people who want to rush through a dungeon skipping anything they can get past vs people who want to do it slowly and actually clear everything or even listen to the NPC dialogue along the way.

And if particular builds or skills or whatever are important they can put that in the group description too.

[LucianDK.8615]

So many are judging EoD on a single meta waaay before people are getting good at it, and at last stops running face first into a wall and expecting to complete.

 

Even to this day Dragon's Stand may fail due to the blighting tree phase.

[Mike.7983]

To the comment above about " Optimal builds are pretty much required and groups are having to engage in gatekeeping behavior of manipulating map population to be able to do the event and succeed." Far from true, the main reason the meta fails is due to this game rewarding afk/auto check instagram/text while waiting for someone else to rez and do your job for you.  To much rewarding lazy player base.  Meta does take more than 500 dps auto now yes.  Honestly would love to see the game give incentive to people pushing there class to the limits in the form of increased rewards vs average lazy dps.  Make it a bonus to get extras for performing well.  Likewise auto attack remove some of there loot. Until they fix the reward for open world lazy issue this will be a constant stuggle. Prob going to recieve flak for saying this but its true, if you want to lazy auto go play something else. The final meta with a full group 20k+ dps each was insanely easy in comparison, well over 8min left on clock.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Mike.7983

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

The things that will make the steam release DOA are outdated leveling content, outdated profession balance, and a confusing/"dead" endgame. In their blog update they have stated that these are all going to be top priority for the next year. Things like no LFG que or a high profession skill ceiling dont typically ruin a game for new players. I do agree that quickness and alacrity need redesigning though. They were much better as temporary boons for burst windows.

[KeoLegend.5132]

Just comming by to say that you are completely wrong in almost everything.

 

1. The LFG tool is amazing in GW2. I've played ESO and i know how idiotic is the Matchmaking system, putting classes together without any synergy. We don't need Matchmaking here. LFG is better.

2. The only place where DPS difference and optimal builds needs are Hard Raids or CM Fractals and that my friend, is not casual content. When i create LFG for Strikes or T4+ Recs i don't cry for Alac or Heal. Just 4 competent players doing their best is enough for all T4 Fracs and getting a few supports works just well on most strikes. By the time the avg player reach CM or Hard Raid level, he will already have the means, knowledge and resources to get into the more "optimal" builds

[Keegers.2573]

Everyone seems to be focusing on the matchmaker aspect. I don't care if the game has matchmaking or not, but the quickness/alac requirements make it take longer to find groups in LFG. You can still have challenging content and specialized builds, but right now the baseline of requiring quickness/alac is ruining the experience.

Also I don't find raids/fractals challenging content, I personally run the quickness/alac builds that I'm advocating for removing. I'm speaking mainly to the feedback i hear from new players and players I teach content to. These boons aren't needed in endgame content and they only serve to gatekeep certain classes from playing. I'm not advocating for removal of class/skill choices, I'm advocating for the inclusion of more variety of playstyles. Right now, Alac/quickness are requirements and playing without them feels bad. If they are removed, the meta will open up to allow more types of builds and allow players to work with who joins no matter the class instead of only allowing certain specs to join.

Edit: Also LFG system just allows players to join.. there is no pending invites or queue system it is very much a pain to try and search for a specific role when anyone can just join.. Even GW1 had a pending invite system

Edited March 22, 2022 by Keegers.2573

[Keegers.2573]

Or even just making alac/quickness personal only buffs would be a big shake up. Sigil of rage can be used, builds can be made around these burst windows. 

No one notices if regen is dropped for a second, but everyone notices when their number goes from green to white.. It's not a good system where 2 boons are the majority of focus of an entire group of people

Edited March 22, 2022 by Keegers.2573

[Gorem.8104]

To be honest, GW2 on steam will always show low player counts compared to most games - as they can't hide and lie about the player counts there it will be interesting to see. EoD has cost the game tens of thousands of players who have quit because of it so the game in its current state would launch with a lot of negative reviews which they also couldn't lie about. I'm actually surprised Anet wants to be on Steam in these 2 cases after EoD's failed launch. 

Before EoD, it'd have been fine and they'd got mostly positive reviews as people saw a game that does mmo's differently, where you can play anyway you like and are not forced into raids in open world. We'd get so many more fashion players. Before EoD that is. 

[yoni.7015]

6 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

EoD has cost the game tens of thousands of players who have quit because of it so the game in its current state would launch with a lot of negative reviews which they also couldn't lie about. 

Where do you got that number from? You have a source for that? 

Edited March 22, 2022 by yoni.7015

[Maikimaik.1974]

7 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

EoD has cost the game tens of thousands of players who have quit because of it so the game in its current state would launch with a lot of negative reviews which they also couldn't lie about. I'm actually surprised Anet wants to be on Steam in these 2 cases after EoD's failed launch. 

According to Anet EoD has already outsold PoF and it's currently the highest rated Gw2 expansion on Metacritic.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Maikimaik.1974

[Peterson.5172]

DPS difference - this is very difficult to resolve, you can give new players berserker/viper, but they'll end up dying over and over in open world before they can figure out dodging/traits/skill priority etc.

Matchmaker - it would need to be a clever one that allows for multiple/mix of roles by one person, but yes having one is better than none. it doesnt replace the lfg, just works alongside it.

[Keegers.2573]

GW2 Launched: Metacritic score of 90 with 69 critic reviews
GW2 HoT: Metacritic score of 81 with 22 critic reviews
GW2 PoF: Metacritic score of 83 with 13 critic reviews
GW2 EoD: Metacritic score of 83 with 7 critic reviews.

The player reviews mirror this in numbers declining but have GW2 launch as the highest at 8.0 over 3116 reviews. HoT/PoF are both 7.3 and EoD is an 8 with 73 reviews. 

It's safe to say if we had steam reviews many people would be commenting on the decline of gameplay. What made GW2 base game so much fun? It was a unique idea in a landscape of themepark MMO's, the original design manifesto promised content without the pitfalls of traditional MMOs. In HoT they brought raids and with it brought the pitfalls of other games by now bringing in healers and support builds. They practically made these builds required to complete content which is a complete 180 from the original game.

Quote

It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.

How is sitting around looking for 2 or 3 support builds to round out your strike/raid team fun? How is being forced to play a meta fun? In some ways Anet has abandoned and double downed on flawed systems instead of going their own way. DRM's were a great addition (ignoring the complaints of hp sponges and being forced to grind them for achievements), they were scalable, they had a CM. Why did Anet abandon a good system with good bones that just needed refinement and go back to trying to hamfist 10player content with a stupid meta requirement of quickness/alac builds?

Edited March 22, 2022 by Keegers.2573

[Tiviana.2650]

If you read  the update for 2022 they explain they are going to make sure gw2 on steam is a success, they said you only get one chance on steam and they want to do it right.

 

 https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/arenanet-studio-update-the-future-of-guild-wars-2/

Edited March 22, 2022 by Tiviana.2650

[Keegers.2573]

Just now, Tiviana.2650 said:

If you read  the update for 2022 they explain they are going to make sure gw2 on steam is a success, they said you only get once chance on steam and they want to do it right.

 

 https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/arenanet-studio-update-the-future-of-guild-wars-2/

Yeah? That's the main point of my original post? If they want to get it right, they need to fix the main combat issues that are ruining the endgame experience and alienating their core audience

[Mongk.2458]

The game didnt fail without steam and It wont fail with it. Period.

[Maikimaik.1974]

8 minutes ago, Keegers.2573 said:

The player reviews mirror this in numbers declining but have GW2 launch as the highest at 8.0 over 3116 reviews. HoT/PoF are both 7.8 and EoD is an 8 with 73 reviews. 

Why are you lying? Both HoT and PoF are at 7.3

 

EoD also has only one critic review less than PoF did after one month.

[Tiviana.2650]

Just now, Keegers.2573 said:

Yeah? That's the main point of my original post? If they want to get it right, they need to fix the main combat issues that are ruining the endgame experience and alienating their core audience

Im really trying to get what your saying, but having trouble. Is your concern about how some classes are needed because of boons? Because I have to say i have not played a mmorpg where that wasnt the case really. Different classes bring different things, and I think most mmorpg players are used to that. i dont get what you are advocating for here? Are you suggesting everyone get everything? Because that throws off the dynamic of working as a team 

[Keegers.2573]

Just now, Maikimaik.1974 said:

Why are you lying? Both HoT and PoF are at 7.3

Corrected, wasn't trying to lie about it... The 3 looked like an 8 on my phone screen.

[Keegers.2573]

1 minute ago, Tiviana.2650 said:

Im really trying to get what your saying, but having trouble. Is your concern about how some classes are needed because of boons? Because I have to say i have not played a mmorpg where that wasnt the case really. Different classes bring different things, and I think most mmorpg players are used to that. i dont get what you are advocating for here? Are you suggesting everyone get everything? Because that throws off the dynamic of working as a team 

I'm saying that quickness/alac are the main causes of dps disparity in players and they are also the main issue when trying to group with players for content. Everyone wants their alac/quickness boons because playing without it feels bad and content is balanced around having these boons. The entire endgame dps parse pretty much revolves around 2 boons. 

Mechanist healer does 10k dps on Mursaat Overseer while doing alac, 25 might, fury, protection, etc.. Remove alac and you still got a class that can pump heals and boons to compete with other supports. Alac/quickness is a gatekeeper boon that makes different support builds not work. Why would i bring another healer when I can bring a healer/alac and have an extra dps

[KeoLegend.5132]

54 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

To be honest, GW2 on steam will always show low player counts compared to most games - as they can't hide and lie about the player counts there it will be interesting to see. EoD has cost the game tens of thousands of players who have quit because of it so the game in its current state would launch with a lot of negative reviews which they also couldn't lie about. I'm actually surprised Anet wants to be on Steam in these 2 cases after EoD's failed launch. 

Before EoD, it'd have been fine and they'd got mostly positive reviews as people saw a game that does mmo's differently, where you can play anyway you like and are not forced into raids in open world. We'd get so many more fashion players. Before EoD that is. 

Source: The bubble that you live in.

EoD is by far the smoothest expansion GW2 ever had. Issues are minimal, mostly complaints about balancing stuff. 

Also EoD is the most sucesseful and best rated expansion. Come to see the world outside the negative cave you might live in. Remeber that just a very small part of players happy with the content come here to post, while near 100% of the angered players will come here to post.

 

GW2 need some tweaks and QoL and will be ready to roll on steam

[Doggie.3184]

I agree about the weird Trinity system issues and our LFG system. It turns people away pretty easily depending on their willpower stat to deal with something unnessarily confusing, hidden and inaccessible. Other MMOs have it so much easier when your role in groups is straightforward and you can just queue into things without having to do tons of research on what kind of makeshift Trinity build to play that your class is actually capable of, if any, and study the GW2 Dictionary.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Doggie.3184

[Tiviana.2650]

1 hour ago, Keegers.2573 said:

I'm saying that quickness/alac are the main causes of dps disparity in players and they are also the main issue when trying to group with players for content. Everyone wants their alac/quickness boons because playing without it feels bad and content is balanced around having these boons. The entire endgame dps parse pretty much revolves around 2 boons. 

Mechanist healer does 10k dps on Mursaat Overseer while doing alac, 25 might, fury, protection, etc.. Remove alac and you still got a class that can pump heals and boons to compete with other supports. Alac/quickness is a gatekeeper boon that makes different support builds not work. Why would i bring another healer when I can bring a healer/alac and have an extra dps

I dont know how to say this but in group content you have 4 slots dedicated to boon classes, the other 6 are usually dps classes. With the exception of  bosses that require a tank type and usually that can be one of the boon classes so you still need 6 dps. Its part of the team dynamic and yes many raid encounters are balanced around dps checks. Can they be done without quick and alac, yes they can. I have been in pugs without alac we still killed the bosses, I have been in pugs were only one group had quick we still killed it. While the optimum raid setup may be x and y class , any class will work. I heal tempest raids 2 weeks ago, I get it the meta is the end all be all to some people. But everything is doable without it. Form your own group if you cant get into one because you are not quick or alac , most groups are just thrown together anyway. I dont want every class to pump out the same things how boring would that be.  And in open world none of this matters.

[Borked.6824]

2 hours ago, Maikimaik.1974 said:

According to Anet EoD has already outsold PoF and it's currently the highest rated Gw2 expansion on Metacritic.

You could apply that logic to Cyberpunk 2077 too, or BF 2042.  I'll let you ponder on that for a bit.  

[Maikimaik.1974]

25 minutes ago, Borked.6824 said:

You could apply that logic to Cyberpunk 2077 too, or BF 2042.  I'll let you ponder on that for a bit.  

How? 2042 has horrible reviews on metacritic.