Current state of mechanist class promotes degenerative gameplay

[Obtena.7952]

There is no sense in proclaiming that the game is unfun for people who hate LI builds just because other people play them. I mean, nothing forces any player to play builds that aren't fun to them. if you aren't having fun because someone else plays a build you don't like, you're just being to imposing. 

[Unicorn Luna.5204]

I don't think many people aren't having fun because other people are playing a build they don't like, it's just a question of balance. Yes people playing top performance of other classes can outperform a mech and that's fine, balanced on the top end? What's not fine is the bottom end, where other classes have to put in a lot of effort to do what pmech can do with 11111111111111 and throwing in mech skills, and because other classes don't have the same default low risk and low effort they may not even be able to keep up. What's the point in learning a rotation when you can just play a class that does more than enough damage for dps checks with auto attack? It just feels stupid. Work smart, not hard, right? I'm all for classes having builds that make them more accessible but I'd be extremely disappointed if gw2 became akin to those autoplay mobile mmo's. I'm interested to see how the balance team addresses this. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Luna.2158

[Batalix.2873]

"But I should say that its okay

That no matter the cost, you want your little pistol

And it's fine that you voted for Voldemort

As long as your reasons were ... purely fiscal...

Oh, you're just greedy? I didn't realize, that's fine!"

[anbujackson.9564]

On 9/5/2022 at 6:19 AM, Luna.2158 said:

I don't think many people aren't having fun because other people are playing a build they don't like, it's just a question of balance. Yes people playing top performance of other classes can outperform a mech and that's fine, balanced on the top end? What's not fine is the bottom end, where other classes have to put in a lot of effort to do what pmech can do with 11111111111111 and throwing in mech skills, and because other classes don't have the same default low risk and low effort they may not even be able to keep up. What's the point in learning a rotation when you can just play a class that does more than enough damage for dps checks with auto attack? It just feels stupid. Work smart, not hard, right? I'm all for classes having builds that make them more accessible but I'd be extremely disappointed if gw2 became akin to those autoplay mobile mmo's. I'm interested to see how the balance team addresses this. 

The issue is that they might loose players if they nerf it because everyone and their parents jump on this spec like crazy.

30+% of a squad are mechs after all and quite a lot of them will perform significantly worse on other classes, which they wont like. 

[soul.9651]

35 minutes ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

The issue is that they might loose players if they nerf it because everyone and their parents jump on this spec like crazy.

30+% of a squad are mechs after all and quite a lot of them will perform significantly worse on other classes, which they wont like. 

How sad indeed for them, only mechs matter, who needs the rest of 70% playerbase. 

Obviously we needed 100% of mech only playerbase instead while any other spec player just uninstalled the game long time ago, amazing future that would be

Edited September 7, 2022 by soul.9651

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

people complaining about mech, do you even know how to play Bladesworn? Try it.. you usually double the dps of mech in quick fight, like fractal or raid with boss phasing quickly.

Really though, quit complaining about other class, play the one you enjoy and leave others alone.

Edited September 7, 2022 by Yellow Rainbow.6142

[anbujackson.9564]

6 hours ago, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

people complaining about mech, do you even know how to play Bladesworn? Try it.. you usually double the dps of mech in quick fight, like fractal or raid with boss phasing quickly.

Really though, quit complaining about other class, play the one you enjoy and leave others alone.

Obviously a class that deals high burst damage outperforms mech in phases which are less than 10 seconds. You dont need to be bladesworn. You can do that on soulbeast or even PBM holo. That must be one of the weakest arguments to defend mech so far.

Just to clarify again. Its about sustained damage in longer fights and the conditions you have to deal with, which are non existent. 

But hey Grouch already confirmed that they are looking into this, so thats that. : )

Edited September 8, 2022 by anbujackson.9564

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

2 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Obviously a class that deals high burst damage outperforms mech in phases which are less than 10 seconds. You dont need to be bladesworn. You can do that on soulbeast or even PBM holo. That must be one of the weakest arguments to defend mech so far.

Just to clarify again. Its about sustained damage in longer fights and the conditions you have to deal with, which are non existent. 

But hey Grouch already confirmed that they are looking into this, so thats that. : )

Okay, but good luck if you think people gonna not play mech because of few lower dps number. Hopefully, it will silent the mech haters though.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

Okay, but good luck if you think people gonna not play mech because of few lower dps number. Hopefully, it will silent the mech haters though.

Well, that's part of the lack of logic with the average opponent here. They say they don't like the usage levels, but then proclaim the fix is nerfing the DPS which is unlikely to be the main reason people use mechs in the first place. 

Even if Anet nerfed power rifle to 20K, I suspect it would hardly change that segment of players that choose to use it. It's appeal not mainly the DPS. The appeal is the effective stacking on the condi side and the LI on the power rifle side. 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[anbujackson.9564]

Wrong, if it would do 30k dps instead of 38k, the haters wouldnt care if the mech players still play it afterwards.

That would be the old scourge situation where the scourge players would go make rants on how they are not doing enough damage.

But hey since you (both) just admitted that the dps wont matter to the players, then why are you complaining about the "haters" in the first place again? They want lower dps most of the time, not the build getting changed in the way it plays. By your logic that shouldnt concern you.

[Incurve Giidis.7829]

are there any new instanced records with mechanist stack?

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Wrong, if it would do 30k dps instead of 38k, the haters wouldnt care if the mech players still play it afterwards.

That would be the old scourge situation where the scourge players would go make rants on how they are not doing enough damage.

But hey since you (both) just admitted that the dps wont matter to the players, then why are you complaining about the "haters" in the first place again? They want lower dps most of the time, not the build getting changed in the way it plays. By your logic that shouldnt concern you.

I'm pointing out the illogical thinking that nerfing the DPS solves 'too many mechs'. I don't care about the people that hate mechs ... that's not a problem even worth thinking about. That's an ego issue. 

 'concerns' of some people doesn't mean LI mech is a problem that needs to be fixed. If it IS a problem that needs to be fixed, it has to at least make sense what that problem is. If most of the people using mechs are doing it because 'easy' or 'stacking effects' ... then changing it's DPS is irrelevant.

I mean, if the DPS it too high, sure, nerf it, but that's NOT going to fix the adoption level of mech in the endgame because DPS is NOT the reason people choose mechs. 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[zeyeti.8347]

"Gimme aegis every 2 secs and 100% stab uptime , cause me mech , me pew pew , and me dont give a butterfly bout mechanics"

Quote : random rifle mech player (think it was me ..... cant remember ... i played drunk)

Edited September 8, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[anbujackson.9564]

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm pointing out the illogical thinking that nerfing the DPS solves 'too many mechs'. I don't really care about the people that hate mechs ... that's not a problem worth solving. Just because something 'concerns' people, doesn't mean it's a problem that needs to be fixed and if it IS a problem that needs to be fixed, it has to at least make sense. If most of the people using mechs are doing it because 'easy' or 'stacking effects' ... then changing it's DPS is irrelevant.

Well yes and no.

Some people will stay on mech for sure. But there will be a bunch of players switching to other classes. Like I said. If it would deal 30k dps, then you would have another scourge situation. The people complaining wouldnt be the haters then. Because they are playing the next best option (which at least requires more player action).

People play whats most effective, easy as that. And it has the best effort <--> value ratio. So yeah.

Anyway since ANET is aware of the "meta defining situation", all we can speculate now is how they deal with it anyway.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Well yes and no.

Some people will stay on mech for sure. But there will be a bunch of players switching to other classes. Like I said. If it would deal 30k dps, then you would have another scourge situation. The people complaining wouldnt be the haters then. Because they are playing the next best option (which at least requires more player action).

People play whats most effective, easy as that. And it has the best effort <--> value ratio. So yeah.

Anyway since ANET is aware of the "meta defining situation", all we can speculate now is how they deal with it anyway.

The question is how many will change spec because if the goal is 'too many mechs' and we are siting at 30+% ... a DPS nerf isn't the answer to that. It's likely a VERY small portion of that because DPS isn't the majority reason people are using this spec. 

Again, if the problem is 'too many mechs', then the solution has to target the ACTUAL cause to fix that, otherwise it won't be effective. My problem here is that people have somehow come to the conclusion that too many mechs is because too much DPS. That's a very 'convenient' conclusion considering how offended many of these people are to how easy it is for mech to get DPS. I don't think it's a coincidence that this is the conclusion many opponents of LI mech have reached. Also interesting that none of them speak of the absolutely stacked capabilities it has or that impact on useage.  Yes, how very ... 'convenient'. 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Unicorn Luna.5204]

The most played class in Gw2 is usually the one that has the best damage with the least amount of effort. It's why DH was everywhere for a while, scourge too. The li ranged mech build will be convenient for more players going forwards than previous popular damage builds because it's the most accessible one to date. But if the damage gets nerfed enough, history shows that a lot of players will migrate to the next class that provides strong dps with little effort. My money is on bladesworn being the next spec to dominate if it doesn't get nerfed significantly first. It's always about the dps race and being in it as simply as possible. If dps racers aren't winning the race they will change to something that they will win on. This isn't a new concept and shouldn't be a surprise. If it hasn't been called in the case of mech then I'm calling it now. 

[Axl.8924]

2 hours ago, Luna.2158 said:

The most played class in Gw2 is usually the one that has the best damage with the least amount of effort. It's why DH was everywhere for a while, scourge too. The li ranged mech build will be convenient for more players going forwards than previous popular damage builds because it's the most accessible one to date. But if the damage gets nerfed enough, history shows that a lot of players will migrate to the next class that provides strong dps with little effort. My money is on bladesworn being the next spec to dominate if it doesn't get nerfed significantly first. It's always about the dps race and being in it as simply as possible. If dps racers aren't winning the race they will change to something that they will win on. This isn't a new concept and shouldn't be a surprise. If it hasn't been called in the case of mech then I'm calling it now. 

For this reason i personally think dps classes should be balanced out to be closer both old and new.

There shouldn't be humongous differences between dps specs that are competing unless of course that spec is a hybrid dps support in which it has a  role its viable in.

Also support builds shouldn't be equal to full DPS builds either.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Axl.8924

[Unicorn Luna.5204]

1 hour ago, Axl.8924 said:

For this reason i personally think dps classes should be balanced out to be closer both old and new.

There shouldn't be humongous differences between dps specs that are competing unless of course that spec is a hybrid dps support in which it has a  role its viable in.

Also support builds shouldn't be equal to full DPS builds either.

So much agree! I'm actually a huge fan of hybridising in mmo's but I feel gw2 goes way too far in allowing that. Definitely a support dps shouldn't be equal or better damage potential to a pure dps but also a pure dps with significant utility or survivability shouldn't be doing more or equal damage than a pure dps that doesn't. A ranged dps shouldn't be better than a melee, etc, etc. That just makes sense to me and I'm certain anet have explained along these lines in the past, which would make the ranged pmech out of line. Grouch has said they're looking at it and in general they're good at addressing things even if they don't necessarily address things in a way we agree with (For example, why the hell isn't ele the Queen of all dps?) and if they don't see a problem with the current state of this then I can only imagine they've gone mad or that Dev main favourites is upheld tyrannically, doesn't seem like anets way though. October balance patch and upcoming design philosophy statements will go a long way to helping us with clarity. It's a shame we don't get a more live conversation with devs about these things but I suppose they have to converse about it themselves before they bring it to us.

[zeyeti.8347]

On 9/8/2022 at 7:08 PM, anbujackson.9564 said:

I'm pointing out the illogical thinking that nerfing the DPS solves 'too many mechs'. I don't really care about the people that hate mechs ... that's not a problem worth solving. Just because something 'concerns' people, doesn't mean it's a problem that needs to be fixed and if it IS a problem that needs to be fixed, it has to at least make sense. If most of the people using mechs are doing it because 'easy' or 'stacking effects' ... then changing it's DPS is irrelevant.

Yeah sure Obtena , if my mech will perform 15 k instead of 30k afk , i will still play it .... (why the hell can i still see those message from someone who quoted you . Block doesnt work on quotes ?) . We will see if it gets nerfed , if more ppl will play it , then again you will take your trump card , and say "it doesnt matter what ppl play" , and i say it will go lower and lower on playerbase if you lower it dps , i sure will not play it anymore . Yeah , today if you play sylvari mech or sylvari virtuoso you are in a great spot for harvest temple cm (some ppl will know what i talk about) but yes play whatever you want guys , i am pretty sure if you play minstrel warrior dps , everybody in raids will accept to carry your a** . The world of carebears doenst exist Obtena , snap out of the dream , equality in gw 2 class is like in our world , it doesnt exist ! ... actually ...

Edited September 10, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[Axl.8924]

22 hours ago, Luna.2158 said:

So much agree! I'm actually a huge fan of hybridising in mmo's but I feel gw2 goes way too far in allowing that. Definitely a support dps shouldn't be equal or better damage potential to a pure dps but also a pure dps with significant utility or survivability shouldn't be doing more or equal damage than a pure dps that doesn't. A ranged dps shouldn't be better than a melee, etc, etc. That just makes sense to me and I'm certain anet have explained along these lines in the past, which would make the ranged pmech out of line. Grouch has said they're looking at it and in general they're good at addressing things even if they don't necessarily address things in a way we agree with (For example, why the hell isn't ele the Queen of all dps?) and if they don't see a problem with the current state of this then I can only imagine they've gone mad or that Dev main favourites is upheld tyrannically, doesn't seem like anets way though. October balance patch and upcoming design philosophy statements will go a long way to helping us with clarity. It's a shame we don't get a more live conversation with devs about these things but I suppose they have to converse about it themselves before they bring it to us.

There are many issues in this game what if a class offers dps of a support but not enough support to be taken over anything else? Then what? 

 

Also what do they do to fix issues with classes such as reaper on nec? its supposed to be a dps spec but it has arond same dps as a support and it doesn't offer enough to be really taken nor does it have the support to be taken as a tank.

This was more easy to balance on in games such as everquest where your class is and always wil be a support or tank or DPS or healer.

Even world of warcraft has made sure dps healers tanks and other roles fit. it has its own set of problems don't get me wrong but so does guild wars 2.

 

Also i'd like staff ele to be a thing for large targets niche continue so we can have for  big and small target aoe cleave when needed.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Axl.8924

[soul.9651]

People also seem to forget that this game has horizontal progression, so if you gonna make player performance skills irrelevant in such game (talking about pve) you just demotivate player to keep playing this game, and knowing how long it takes for anet to make a new high end pve content (just look when was the last new raid or fractal released, or even the new strike mission is taking a lot of time by now) they just make this game boring for many people by letting builds like pmech or any other Li builds to exist. If you wanna pve scene to completly die out then go on embrace your Li builds, lets see for how long you are gonna enjoy this game when the next piece of new content will be released in months or years...(or even better i dare someone on forums or anywhere else to make a survey and see how many mech and non mech players are enjoying the game rn, how much motivation they even have to keep playing the same content over and over again and how much they enjoy the current game balance or even better how many are thinking about quitting the game or already stopped playing)

In fact lets look how "well balanced" pvp is aswell and how popular that game mode is too... If people still dont realise that balance is a big factor for player population then idk, this game is just destroying itself at this point and people will realise this when its gonna be just too late 

Edited September 10, 2022 by soul.9651

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

1 hour ago, soul.9651 said:

People also seem to forget that this game has horizontal progression, so if you gonna make player performance skills irrelevant in such game (talking about pve) you just demotivate player to keep playing this game, and knowing how long it takes for anet to make a new high end pve content (just look when was the last new raid or fractal released, or even the new strike mission is taking a lot of time by now) they just make this game boring for many people by letting builds like pmech or any other Li builds to exist. If you wanna pve scene to completly die out then go on embrace your Li builds, lets see for how long you are gonna enjoy this game when the next piece of new content will be released in months or years...(or even better i dare someone on forums or anywhere else to make a survey and see how many mech and non mech players are enjoying the game rn, how much motivation they even have to keep playing the same content over and over again and how much they enjoy the current game balance or even better how many are thinking about quitting the game or already stopped playing)

In fact lets look how "well balanced" pvp is aswell and how popular that game mode is too... If people still dont realise that balance is a big factor for player population then idk, this game is just destroying itself at this point and people will realise this when its gonna be just too late 

Its one thing to criticize engi rifle build, its whole different to criticize Li builds altogether. Not even sure what to say but I usually block people with this type of mentality.

[Unicorn Luna.5204]

3 hours ago, Axl.8924 said:

There are many issues in this game what if a class offers dps of a support but not enough support to be taken over anything else? Then what? 

It's the bit where I said: Definitely a support dps shouldn't be equal or better damage potential to a pure dps but also a pure dps with significant utility or survivability shouldn't be doing more or equal damage than a pure dps that doesn't.

Case in point: We agree but you're asking me to answer the question I already answered, silly billy! reaper doing low dps is a problem since its utility is not that useful compared to other dps specs.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Luna.2158
I meant reaper rather than necro

[soul.9651]

33 minutes ago, Yellow Rainbow.6142 said:

Its one thing to criticize engi rifle build, its whole different to criticize Li builds altogether. Not even sure what to say but I usually block people with this type of mentality.

Well that would be a bigger favor for me than you think you would do for yourself. If person is lazy to put an effort into knowing his spec(and thats how li builds work, you dont need to know anything about the spec and it still carries you), he will be lazy to put an effort into knowing the mechanics and the encounter itself, and no ty, there is 0 fun in carrying such people when they join your group.

[Yellow Rainbow.6142]

1 hour ago, soul.9651 said:

Well that would be a bigger favor for me than you think you would do for yourself. If person is lazy to put an effort into knowing his spec(and thats how li builds work, you dont need to know anything about the spec and it still carries you), he will be lazy to put an effort into knowing the mechanics and the encounter itself, and no ty, there is 0 fun in carrying such people when they join your group.

Raid and fractal is not everything this game offers. BTW, yes I am blocking you. I don't play with elite either. Carry me or not. Full legendary weapons, armor, trinket, sigil and rune here 🙂

Edited September 10, 2022 by Yellow Rainbow.6142